Hypothetical: Dog Food Question

[ninahartland]

From the food you are giving, I can see why your dogs are fussy eaters.

I won't feed my dogs a mixed state of food in their diet plan. i.e I won't mixed raw with cooked, commercial kibbles then canned food. The reason I wouldn't do that is because the condition of digestion will be very different for your dogs to manage these varied food.

I try not to go into too much medical explanation so for those who knows the exact process, please bear with me on the wordings.

Basically when you try to give all different chemical states of food to your dog, your dog digestion system is going to be very taxing. Say you feeding raw, the dog stomach will get used to raw state of food and develop the correct friendly bacteria and enzymes to digest that kind of food over time. When you give kibbles, it needs another environment of digestion inside the stomach. Similarly, canned, commercial raw etc will all need a digestion environment of their own.

Having said that, you may want to ask me isn't kibble, cooked and canned all the same chemical state as COOKED food while raw (DIY) and commerical raw the same? The answer is no. Because when you talking about home cooked food, you do not use a strict cooking procedure as opposed to kibbles...which uses heat too. Normal kibbles uses heat. And commercially prepared kibbles uses a cooking process very different from home cooked 1s. Hence the chemical state and content of the finished product is not the same as well. Just grab a pre-cooked chicken from supermart and compare to your freshly cooked chicken at home and taste them you know why.

Canned food again is packed with preservatives and chemicals which again have a different chemical state and content versus kibbles and HCF. Raw that you DIY and commercial ones are different too. Commercial raw will need to contain certain types of preservative be it natural or not and will generally take a longer time before it gets consumed compared to our DIY 1s we get it fresh daily and consume within a few days. Raw food contains living enzymes, so it is very chemically different from cooked ones.

Knowing all these stuffs will let you better understand why your dog is being fussy. Because their body are constantly trying to switch their optimal digestions in between raw (in the morning), cooked (in the evening), then tomorrow (canned food) followed like commercial raw?

Dogs are not humans, we have the most inefficient digestion systems and most screwed up diets in the living world. We need to eat regularly and we can ingest large amount of chemical processed food because we have evolved our body to accept all these. Dogs are like other animals too, their body do not processed food like humans. They need to be efficient because that is how they live their days in nature as an animal. They are not as highly evolved as human beings. Hence it will be very challenging for them to keep changing different states of food within a month, a week or even a day.

Humans are the most wasteful eaters in the world....we will eat stuffs that are of no health or medical benefits to us and we just let our body passed them out without getting any benefit or worst, getting harmed. Dogs will strive to develop the most efficient way of digestions in their body....which is why if you are on a DIY raw diet, you see them pooing significantly less if you just feed meat. My dogs when on raw organic meat only, gets poo like once in 2-3 days. Thats because their body will absorb whatever that they can effectively use pooing less to avoid wastages. Humans will poo everyday...because of the food we put into our mouth and the inefficient state of our digestion system which have developed to take all sorts of chemical states of the food we eat.

Thankyou for that Very interesting

[Gayle.]

There's a pet roll called Ecopet that I used to keep on hand to feed Benson if I forgot to defost raw, or for a change. It was very good....nice and firm and with a fresh garlicky smell. He loved it, and it looked and smelled decent.

Our oldie get Natures Gift sometimes, she loves it. My sons kelpie-x does well on Natures Gift and Uncle Albers kibble...my son doesn't have the time, inclination or budget to feed her super premium, or raw.

I won't feed my dogs a mixed state of food in their diet plan. i.e I won't mixed raw with cooked, commercial kibbles then canned food. The reason I wouldn't do that is because the condition of digestion will be very different for your dogs to manage these varied food.

I try not to go into too much medical explanation so for those who knows the exact process, please bear with me on the wordings.

Basically when you try to give all different chemical states of food to your dog, your dog digestion system is going to be very taxing. Say you feeding raw, the dog stomach will get used to raw state of food and develop the correct friendly bacteria and enzymes to digest that kind of food over time. When you give kibbles, it needs another environment of digestion inside the stomach. Similarly, canned, commercial raw etc will all need a digestion environment of their own.

Can you reference your source, please?

[Red Fox]

I bought a half a dozen cans of Hills Science Diet a few weeks ago for frozen Kong stuffing (Big W had them out cheap). The ingredients are not too bad, much better than what they put in their dry food anyway . I'm not overly keen on the salt content but as we only go through one or two small cans per fortnight (if we're lucky) I don't think it really matters all that much.

Can't say Kei's gone crazy for it though... I think I'll be giving Natures gift a go next time

If I *had* to feed canned food as a main diet I'd probably try Eagle Pack or Ziwi Peak.

[Staranais]

Well I absolutely no idea about any of that . I was just trying to make life interesting for the dogs. I wonder how many vets know this?

Well, if there was actually any good evidence in favour of the information, they'd probably be more likely to teach it to vets...

Neither humans nor dogs have had time to evolve to thrive on a diet of processed foods. Both humans and dogs can generally live on processed foods, but it's not optimal for humans any more than it is for dogs.

Dogs (and people, and other animals) do develop slightly different microflora in their guts when fed different diets, but I have seen no reputable evidence to indicate that dogs can't adapt to efficiently digesting a mixed diet, just like we do. Feeding one food only for a long time then making a sudden switch to another can sometimes cause temportary digestive upsets (in dogs and in people), but regularly rotating foods is different. It's not like you only have one type of bacteria growing in your guts, or can make only one type of digestive enzyme at once!

As for animals getting "fussy" when they are fed different foods, I personally give my dogs and cats different foods on a regular basis, and they seem to enjoy the variety, and are all very healthy and happy. However if giving variety was making them fussy, I wouldn't do it. They might enjoy the variety, but they don't need it. And I doubt they'd miss it too much once they got used to eating the same thing every day.

[persephone]

If I ever do , it's Nature's Gift.

[Sandra777]

Dogs are not humans, we have the most inefficient digestion systems and most screwed up diets in the living world. We need to eat regularly and we can ingest large amount of chemical processed food because we have evolved our body to accept all these.

I am assuming that by "chemical processed food" you mean the differences between carbohydrates, proteins and fats? If so, would it not be simpler to say humans are omnivores and dogs are carnivores?

If you mean that the human body has evolved to consume the modern processed foods, then I totally disagree

Humans will poo everyday...because of the food we put into our mouth and the inefficient state of our digestion system which have developed to take all sorts of chemical states of the food we eat.

Obviously you are not someone who follows a low carb high protein diet...........

[malsam]

Can you reference your source, please?

Academically, you cannot, because every pet food companies will published their own research advocating their food is the best. Logically and on clinical trials, it does. Just quote an eg from kibble companies. When you switch from kibble A to B, Kibble B company will advice you against changing everything at once. You are suppose to change them slowly over a few days. So looking at this statement, one would already understand how it will affect the digestion system when you just switch food that are prepared differently. Not to mention we are talking about changing the chemical state of the food given i.e cooked versus raw versus canned!

Another reference would be to call up kibble companies that do not produce BARF products whether is it advisable to mix their food with raw and also ask commercial BARF producers the same question. Some will tell you canned and kibble can be mixed...because the companies sell both. Commercial BARF like Dr B patties will tell you the difference in the food content will trigger a very different digestion environment to be cultivated in the body. At least that is what my friends told me when they ask their suppliers or any other commercial raw products they are feeding.

Well I absolutely no idea about any of that . I was just trying to make life interesting for the dogs. I wonder how many vets know this?

You can still stick to 1 type of food and varies them for nutritional varieties. When I am feeding kibbles, I will get all the different favours that the same kibble brand have. And I do not give them the same formula eg. chicken everyday. I will give varieties such as monday chicken, tuesday beef, wednesday mutton....you get the idea.

Dogs are not humans....they do not need the kind of varieties that humans fancies like sashimi (raw), roast duck (cooked), pickles (canned) in one single meal.

Well, if there was actually any good evidence in favour of the information, they'd probably be more likely to teach it to vets...

I was told vets do not attend nutritional classes....Idk but there is only 1 vet in the country I stay that actually attended a course in clinical nutrition for canines.

Neither humans nor dogs have had time to evolve to thrive on a diet of processed foods. Both humans and dogs can generally live on processed foods, but it's not optimal for humans any more than it is for dogs.

Indeed its a known fact that humans can adapt much much better in an artificial environment (be it air, food, environment etc) and no other animals can do it as well as us. The natural world is cruel...and every living organisms are trying to survive under efficient conditions and so do dogs. Humans create our environment, which make us feel complacent, greedy and ultimately wasteful.

Dogs (and people, and other animals) do develop slightly different microflora in their guts when fed different diets, but I have seen no reputable evidence to indicate that dogs can't adapt to efficiently digesting a mixed diet, just like we do. Feeding one food only for a long time then making a sudden switch to another can sometimes cause temportary digestive upsets (in dogs and in people), but regularly rotating foods is different. It's not like you only have one type of bacteria growing in your guts, or can make only one type of digestive enzyme at once!

Medically speaking, if you use alot of different types of food, be it within a day or a week or whatever frequency you would term it as "regular", you will experience your dog having all sorts of different poo type. Any good doctors will tell you that the poo of a patient can tell you a lot about their health. To give you an eg, when I feed kibbles on the 1st meal and HCF on the 2nd meal, my dogs will have very soft poo with a very pungent smell. That kind of poo does not belongs to a healthy and efficient dog.

Having said that, an inefficient digestion systems does not mean your dog is going to die in that sense. It just builds up a lot of behaviour and health problems which the owner will faced if you have that dog long enough. I can feed my kids fast food everyday...and they will still grow up to be healthy boys and girls and probably fertile man and woman. It will take some times before issues arises as they aged....and that is the thing that will worry dog owners (parents).

As for animals getting "fussy" when they are fed different foods, I personally give my dogs and cats different foods on a regular basis, and they seem to enjoy the variety, and are all very healthy and happy. However if giving variety was making them fussy, I wouldn't do it. They might enjoy the variety, but they don't need it. And I doubt they'd miss it too much once they got used to eating the same thing every day.

Indeed dogs do not need the variety for the taste. They need variety for the nutrition in that sense. And when I say variety, as mentioned above, I mean varieties in terms of different types of ingredients...not the chemical state of food like cooked, raw, canned etc. If you varies your ingredients, not only they get a balanced diet, they will be anticipating different favours everyday since they only get to taste it like once or twice in a week.

I am assuming that by "chemical processed food" you mean the differences between carbohydrates, proteins and fats? If so, would it not be simpler to say humans are omnivores and dogs are carnivores?

haha, I'm not going make a stand on the topic of whether are dogs carnivores or not and my bad for using that phrase - "chemical processed food"..... I should have it written as "food that are chemically processed". Which I meant by foods having chemicals which can be used as artificial preservatives, in the extraction method, to blend with other ingredients etc.

If you mean that the human body has evolved to consume the modern processed foods, then I totally disagree

I dunno why you would disagree with this unless you have seen kangaroos or wombats (or any animals) are like us, feeling ok after drinking coca cola or beer.

Obviously you are not someone who follows a low carb high protein diet...........

lol....no, my diet is more of one that matches my blood group.

Try asking any doctors how much times should we go to the washroom in a day to be considered healthy. Because of the food we eat, if we do likewise as other animals, we would probably be in hospital already!

[pie]

If i was feeding the boys canned food...i'd feed Natures Gift For the most part if they get any canned food (eg treat/whatever) they get Natures Gift

Me too. It has no jelly bits in it

I also like the Ziwipeak but it's hard to get, and NG is at most supermarkets.

[Sandra777]

I am assuming that by "chemical processed food" you mean the differences between carbohydrates, proteins and fats? If so, would it not be simpler to say humans are omnivores and dogs are carnivores?

haha, I'm not going make a stand on the topic of whether are dogs carnivores or not and my bad for using that phrase - "chemical processed food"..... I should have it written as "food that are chemically processed". Which I meant by foods having chemicals which can be used as artificial preservatives, in the extraction method, to blend with other ingredients etc.

So you do mean the human body has evolved to process artifical preservatives in modern food?

Sorry, this is totally untrue.

Modern artifical preservatives have been with us for an extremely short time - less than 50 years in main stream use. This is two generations in human terms and there is absolutely no way humans have evolved to process artifical preservatives in two generations. Absolutely untrue. And what about people in "primitive" societies who are lucky enough not to have a maccas just around the corner - I assume they have evolved along with us despite their lack of need to do so?

If you mean that the human body has evolved to consume the modern processed foods, then I totally disagree

I dunno why you would disagree with this unless you have seen kangaroos or wombats (or any animals) are like us, feeling ok after drinking coca cola or beer.

Beer is not a modern creation - it has been around for an extremely long time. Yes, methods have changed and not for the better but the actual fermentation process is extremely old.

As for "feeling OK" after drinking Coke, Maccas or any of the other modern preservative packed food - er, no I don't think so. MOST people are actually very badly affected by such things but don't realise how badly it is affecting their wellbeing until they stop eating or drinking highly processed/preservative packed foods & drinks

Yes we can eat and drink the stuff but it's not what we have evolved to eat/drink.

Dogs can "survive" on all the same stuff as we can, but it's no better for them than it is for us.

Try asking any doctors how much times should we go to the washroom in a day to be considered healthy. Because of the food we eat, if we do likewise as other animals, we would probably be in hospital already!

Washroom - I assume you mean toilet to poop? It totally depends on the education of the doctor and the diet of the person. Once every second day is considered perfectly normal in some circles (high protein low carb people). Toilet to pee, well that one would depend on how much you drink, the temperature and whether or not you have had kids

[Staranais]

Academically, you cannot, because every pet food companies will published their own research advocating their food is the best. Logically and on clinical trials, it does. Just quote an eg from kibble companies. When you switch from kibble A to B, Kibble B company will advice you against changing everything at once. You are suppose to change them slowly over a few days. So looking at this statement, one would already understand how it will affect the digestion system when you just switch food that are prepared differently. Not to mention we are talking about changing the chemical state of the food given i.e cooked versus raw versus canned!

Quotes from a pet food company don't count as a real reference as far as I'm concerned.

However there is a lot of good information available on basic physiology, the mechanics of digestion, etc, out there in peer reviewed literature and veterinary or medical textbooks. These are not sponsored by any pet food company. So since you are discussing physiology and digestion, it should be easy for you to provide references to back up what you are saying.

I was told vets do not attend nutritional classes....Idk but there is only 1 vet in the country I stay that actually attended a course in clinical nutrition for canines.

Strange, because I'm at vet school now, and I distinctly remember the lectures, exams, and field trip we had for canine & feline nutrition last year... you can't believe everything people tell you. Vets certainly do attend nutritional classes.

Not to mention the fact we also attend several years worth of physiology classes, in which we learn about things like digestion, and we also take biochemistry classes, where we learn about what happens to the food once it is digested. We don't graduate as specialists in canine nutrition by any stretch, but whoever told you we don't attend nutrition classes at all is lying to you.

Indeed its a known fact that humans can adapt much much better in an artificial environment (be it air, food, environment etc) and no other animals can do it as well as us.

Can you please provide a reference for that, since it sounds like hokum to me. People survive in an artificial environment and on a processed food diet, but I have never seen evidence that we thrive in one, let alone that we thrive better than other animals.

Our species has simply not had long enough to significantly evolve to suit a diet based on processed foods, any more than dogs have. That's why people whose lifestyle mimicks our ancestral lifestyle (lots of exercise, lots of fresh vegetables and fruit, little sugar, few processed foods) tend to have lower death rates from cancer, heart disease, etc than people with a "modern" lifestyle who don't exercise much and eat eat a diet comprised mainly of processed, fatty, artificial foods.

Edited September 22, 2009 by Staranais

[malsam]

So you do mean the human body has evolved to process artifical preservatives in modern food?

Sorry, this is totally untrue.

Modern artifical preservatives have been with us for an extremely short time - less than 50 years in main stream use. This is two generations in human terms and there is absolutely no way humans have evolved to process artifical preservatives in two generations. Absolutely untrue. And what about people in "primitive" societies who are lucky enough not to have a maccas just around the corner - I assume they have evolved along with us despite their lack of need to do so?

If you mean that the human body has evolved to consume the modern processed foods, then I totally disagree

Sorry if I sound confusing to you on this point. It will depends on how you draw the timeline for the word "evolved". What I mean is basically from Point A to Point B, whereby Point A is what humans originally eats when still living in the wild. And point B is current. Lets assume humans and animals eg, crocodiles both live in the wild in Point A. Humans maybe eating fruits and berries, meat etc. Crocodiles eat raw meat. In point B i.e current time, humans are eating burgers, drinking coke, smoking cigarettes while crocodiles still eat....only raw meat. What I intend to say is that humans are able to create different forms of food type and can survive on them...while animals and dogs alike, are not so well adapted to our food that we created over time.

Beer is not a modern creation - it has been around for an extremely long time. Yes, methods have changed and not for the better but the actual fermentation process is extremely old.

As for "feeling OK" after drinking Coke, Maccas or any of the other modern preservative packed food - er, no I don't think so. MOST people are actually very badly affected by such things but don't realise how badly it is affecting their wellbeing until they stop eating or drinking highly processed/preservative packed foods & drinks

Yes we can eat and drink the stuff but it's not what we have evolved to eat/drink.

Again I apologize for the misleading word....beer and coke is something that we do not natively have in our diet....i.e in timeline point A.

Dogs can "survive" on all the same stuff as we can, but it's no better for them than it is for us.

Yes, thats exactly what I want to say....animals who live with us have to get used to the food and environment we have access to and not what they do best in. We are very much constraint on what we can get and what we think is best for them.

Washroom - I assume you mean toilet to poop? It totally depends on the education of the doctor and the diet of the person. Once every second day is considered perfectly normal in some circles (high protein low carb people). Toilet to pee, well that one would depend on how much you drink, the temperature and whether or not you have had kids :rolleyes:

haha...yea, I agree with that. A lot depends on the food and how efficient you are in digesting them. I'm not so sure about pooing every other day I guess like what you mention, doctors, food intake, your working schedule, stress, age etc will all play a part. And the ideal number of times to poo will depend on which school of education your doctors and yourself are from. We are crystal on that.

Quotes from a pet food company don't count as a real reference as far as I'm concerned.

However there is a lot of good information available on basic physiology, the mechanics of digestion, etc, out there in peer reviewed literature and veterinary or medical textbooks. These are not sponsored by any pet food company. So since you are discussing physiology and digestion, it should be easy for you to provide references to back up what you are saying.

Indeed there is...which is why I am pointing this out. You can just check on any good books on canine nutrition and veterinary medical journals or simply google them and read from reputable sources you should be able to get that idea. Many years back when I first started reading all these canine nutritional works, canine food only revolves introduction of great ingredients telling you which are the super foods, what food gives the dog this and what food gives you that. Very rarely you see works published telling you the synergy of food, the efficiency of food types and how digestible they are. It is only through recent years or probably in this decade, many starts to take a good look at the digestion health...which is why all the probiotics, yoghurt, lassi or kefir are flooding the shelves now. It is not what you eat that matters...its what you can digest that counts.

A recent news published (sori i dun remember the source coz I saw it off TV) stating a village in Japan produce a lot of villagers that live pass a hundred years old. Scientist went into research trying to find out why are they able to do that because the food they eat are nothing special. The only difference is all of them are of organic nature with no chemicals.

Sorry I'm too lazy to dig out formal publications to quote them here.... and its more of a collection and self complied knowledge that we read and experience through trials and feedbacks from people who keep dogs over the years.

Strange, because I'm at vet school now, and I distinctly remember the lectures, exams, and field trip we had for canine & feline nutrition last year... you can't believe everything people tell you. Vets certainly do attend nutritional classes.

haha yea...the people that told me are vets that are already in practice for many years. Universities are including them now because this issue is severe enough for gurus in veterinary science to address the problem directly. And that is how the vet I mention previously got a diploma in clinical nutrition in vet science. Else why would he still be interested to get 1 if its already covered in his undergraduate course?

Not to mention the fact we also attend several years worth of physiology classes, in which we learn about things like digestion, and we also take biochemistry classes, where we learn about what happens to the food once it is digested. We don't graduate as specialists in canine nutrition by any stretch, but whoever told you we don't attend nutrition classes at all is lying to you.

Hmm...so you mean your school already conducted experiments in the lab to prove that it can be optimal to mix different food states like canned, raw and HCF together and it don't matter or affect the dogs digestion system and nutritional intake at all?

Can you please provide a reference for that, since it sounds like hokum to me. People survive in an artificial environment and on a processed food diet, but I have never seen evidence that we thrive in one, let alone that we thrive better than other animals.

Ops, I guess I mislead that one also...I didn't meant to say that humans will "thrive" in the environment we created, I meant to say that we are adapting ok in the world we are living now unlike animals that will go extinct, get deformed if you change their native habitat. Lets just say humans are highly adapted or versatile to change. Again whether its optimal or not is debatable...as humans are still trying to create an ideal world for all of us to "thrive" in. But generally speaking if human populations are growing and mortality rate is low, life expectancy is high, its is already reference to say that we seems to be doing ok now.

Our species has simply not had long enough to significantly evolve to suit a diet based on processed foods, any more than dogs have. That's why people whose lifestyle mimicks our ancestral lifestyle (lots of exercise, lots of fresh vegetables and fruit, little sugar, few processed foods) tend to have lower death rates from cancer, heart disease, etc than people with a "modern" lifestyle who don't exercise much and eat eat a diet comprised mainly of processed, fatty, artificial foods.

Yes indeed...and to complicate things more, how you define quality of life again varies from people to people. An environment without dogs to me is stressful, but some people are more stressed when dogs are around them

[Staranais]

Sorry I'm too lazy to dig out formal publications to quote them here.... and its more of a collection and self complied knowledge that we read and experience through trials and feedbacks from people who keep dogs over the years.

I see. Well, since all the publications I've read don't mention this, and you won't reference your statements, I'll just have to not take your word for it. :rolleyes:

I can say that none of the veterinary textbooks I've read (quite a few) and none of the peer reviewed papers I've read (quite a few) have mentioned anything to do with the idea that mixing different types of food is "bad" or "inefficient", despite them being very thorough in discussing other areas of canine nutrition and digestion. Rather strange that they'd leave it out if there was any information out there...

I have, however, seen many wacky and unsubstantiated websites make similar claims about not mixing food types (for both dogs and humans), but as I'm sure you know, you can't believe everything you read on the web.

haha yea...the people that told me are vets that are already in practice for many years. Universities are including them now because this issue is severe enough for gurus in veterinary science to address the problem directly. And that is how the vet I mention previously got a diploma in clinical nutrition in vet science. Else why would he still be interested to get 1 if its already covered in his undergraduate course?

Ah, so what you meant to say was that vets never used to take canine or feline nutritional classes in their studies, but now they do take them.

Hmm...so you mean your school already conducted experiments in the lab to prove that it can be optimal to mix different food states like canned, raw and HCF together and it don't matter or affect the dogs digestion system and nutritional intake at all?

I don't think it's optimal. I don't think it's suboptimal. I don't think there's any very significant difference, since there's no physiological reason for there to be a significant difference.

Until tested, the idea that there is any difference in the dog's efficiency of digestion when you mix foods in dogs, when other species cope with this just fine, and where there is no known physiological mechanism for this inefficiency to occur, is just a hypothesis, and IMO should not be presented as fact.

[Mum to Emma]

I will occasionally feed a tin of the Pedigree Casserole, or at least mix it with some hot water to make a gravy, especially if I'm away from home and can't take my normal food with me. Nature's Gift is ok although I'm a bit phased by the layer of fat that tends to accumulate in the bottom of the tin...it stinks!

My dogs do actually tend to prefer a tin of cat food, and for bitches which won't eat when they're in late pregnancy or lactating, I usually warm it in the microwave for a few seconds. For some reason when warm it has the most delectable smell....to a dog anyway!

One time I opened a can of Nature's Gift which had "missed out" on the garlic which is obviously used to disguise the smell. Believe me - it would put you off Nature's Gift for life! It was vile! It smelled like rotten cooking oil.

My dogs love the Coles brand Banquet with chicken and salmon. Other than that, the (expensive) Hills prescription diet is excellent. It has the texture of a loaf and the ID variety in particular is a great alternative to the old 'chicken and rice' diarrhea diet. As an emergency, I keep a tin of Pedigree natural tinned with vegetables in the pantry with the Banquet.

Any supermarket tinned food I would only give as a last resort. Particularly the tinned varieties directed at larger dogs. The smaller foiled "My Dog"(?) varieties may be OK.

[Mum to Emma]

But having said that please don't listen to the food Nazi's. If the wallet and lifestyle necessitates your dog having a supermarket diet, then go for it. As long as you include regular bones for their teeth, you'll both have a loving, long-lasting relationship.

Edited September 22, 2009 by Mum to Emma

[Sandra777]

Sorry if I sound confusing to you on this point. It will depends on how you draw the timeline for the word "evolved". What I mean is basically from Point A to Point B, whereby Point A is what humans originally eats when still living in the wild. And point B is current. Lets assume humans and animals eg, crocodiles both live in the wild in Point A. Humans maybe eating fruits and berries, meat etc. Crocodiles eat raw meat. In point B i.e current time, humans are eating burgers, drinking coke, smoking cigarettes while crocodiles still eat....only raw meat. What I intend to say is that humans are able to create different forms of food type and can survive on them...while animals and dogs alike, are not so well adapted to our food that we created over time.

The word you want to use is ADAPT not evolve.

[Georgieboy]

My parents had 2 mini foxy x jack russels and both of the girls were fed Pal their whole lives. Missy (the mum) :p lived for 16 years, and her daughter Penny was 18 when she passed away . Both got a chicken wing a couple of times a week, along with raw hide chews and the like.

They had great teath, good breath and lived long happy lives.

[Sagittarian]

There are far too many food Nazis on forums and many people are cowed into feeding so-called "premium" foods because of the name, the price and peer pressure and it really isn't necessary.

The better quality foods - no matter what price bracket they fall into - are better quality because of the ingredients, not the name.

I spend a lot of time reading ingredients on both human food (for my family) and pet food. I wouldn't choose to regularly provide my kids with foods high in sugars, salts, fillers and low grade ingredients. Nor would I do this to Evie (dog).

Learning how to translate what is on the package can make life a lot easier if you are concerned with long term nutritional benefits. Not all canned foods, for example, are created equally, and that is what can influence price as much as "branding". Compare Ziwipeak ingredients (no fillers, no grains or cereals, only human grade meat/fish) to many other brands. If I add any canned food it is Ziwi - for those reasons, and if I couldn't get Ziwipeak, then Nature's Gift would be a fair option.

Sags

[Paganman]

The better quality foods - no matter what price bracket they fall into - are better quality because of the ingredients, not the name.

Yeah I agree with this Ive tried the cheaper foods and I always get lots of poop and have to feed three times as much food.The cheap stuff doesnt work for my dogs but of course some dogs may be ok on it.

[Jen21]

There's a pet roll called Ecopet that I used to keep on hand to feed Benson if I forgot to defost raw, or for a change. It was very good....nice and firm and with a fresh garlicky smell. He loved it, and it looked and smelled decent.

I have a very difficult eater, who also has a sensitive tummy which has reacted badly (ie: runny poo and stomach upsets) to many of the high end or popular brand canned varieties - like Advantage and Nature's Gift, but I have just found Ecopet at our local pet store and he LOVES it. It's all natural, with a great vibrant scent that had my pup jumping up on me wanting to be fed while I was preparing it, rather than having to be coaxed to his dinner bowl. It wasn't overly expensive either, and keeps well in the fridge.

In terms of canned stuff, the only ones my dog can tolerate are Hill's (but being not so tasty, he won't eat it unless he's really hungry), and I've had some limited success with some types of My Dog and Coles Complete Balance. I tend to mix a bit of Hill's in with any of the other canned stuff to try to keep his poo solid.

Having a dog with a dodgy tummy is not fun at all - good luck

[CP*]

I always try to keep some tins of Eagle pack in the pantry for back up if I run out of home made dinners. The duck and chicken formula is my favourite but it is very expensive and the tins are only 369gms

I generally cook dinners but also always keep Eagle Pack tins handy for training nights or quick meals. Mine loooove the Eagle Pack (yep the Duck and also the Lamb) and will happily eat that instead of fresh food. Even though the tins are small they don't need a large amount - they are expensive but at least I know the quality of the ingredients is as good as I would buy if I was making their meals.