No Reward Markers

[Erny]

It still means to the dog that its response is not the one you want.

[corvus]

Well there's one way to tell if a NRM is punishing to a particular dog or not and that is by whether there is a decrease in the likelihood of a behaviour reoccurring after the NRM. :D Of course, it's hard to tell if there's been a decrease in, say, offering behaviours, or if a decrease in breaking early is due to a NRM or an extinction process, but if it were the latter, what's the point? You would achieve the same thing with no marker. If you are using a NRM as a punishment, then I'm guessing you won't get the independent thinking Cosmolo is after. Feedback is all fine and dandy as long as it achieves something.

I think that if you routinely do anything in particular before you refuse to offer a reward it can potentially become a NRM, same way as doing anything routinely before offering a reward can become a signal that a reward is coming. I think perhaps you can combat this problem with a high reward rate and lots of free-shaping practice. I like free-shaping. :D

Incidentally, if you follow a NRM with putting pup back on the boring leash, then that kind of strays from "no reward" into "good things are going to go away", which would be P-.

[Kavik]

I use a NRM fr a couple of things in agility, coupled with a marker for when they get the exercise correct. I use it for weave entries which are difficult for the dog to understand, and I find that Kaos is happy that my NRM (whoopsy) means to come back and try again - he is not worried at all, and bounces back to me to try again. I use 'Yes' when he gets a difficult entry right. At training on Friday we worked on difficult dogwalk entries (right angle entries) which I haven't done before. I used a pole at the end of dogwalk to give him something to go around and used a NRM if he entered incorrectly (at an angle further up dogwalk). It only took a couple of tries before he was quickly entering correctly by going around the pole and getting on straight. I also found that by doing this and using 'Yes' for correct responses, that his dogwalk performance was quicker after the 'Yes' mark.

[Staranais]

Yes, I always use NRM. I find them very useful. I like communicating with my dog, and the more tools we have to communicate the better, as far as I'm concerned.

For me, the way I view teaching my dog has gradually become less about punishers and reinforcers and getting the "right" behaviour from an animal, and has become more about finding a common language to communicate with another creature. I like to talk my pup through problems, to verbally guide her and help her solve them, not just stand back and watch her flounder around by herself trying to work out what I want. So to me, being able to say "that's not right, try again" is just as valuable to me as saying "yup, that's on the lines of what I want, keep going" and "yes, perfect, come get the reward!"

I don't like my dog having to guess why I haven't marked her (did I just not see it? Am I trying to wean her off the reward? Am I wanting a longer duration? Or was it just not what I wanted at all?) And I feel that using a NRM and a keep going signal, as well as a positive marker, avoids that confusion.

I suppose that the NRM technically is a "punisher", as it decreases the likelyhood my dog will offer the same behaviour again. But that's not the same as an aversive. If the NRM becomes aversive to the dog, then I think it's an issue with how you're using the tool, not with the tool itself. In fact, I think although the NRM should "punish" the particular behaviour, correctly used a NRM should be reinforcing for the teaching session as a whole, as it aids communication and reduces frustration for both the handler and dog.

JMO.

[Ptolomy]

When I consider the dog understands what i am asking - then i use em :D