Headcollar For Boxer

[Guest Willow]

If by being unbiased I end up making it look like I am condoning training methods I don't advocate, then I've kind of shot myself in the foot (rambling much??? does that make sense??? ). Obviously someone who agrees with the use of (for example) prong collars, would have no dramas recommending them, but since I dislike the concept, for me personally, it will never be something I would recommend, or think is a good thing.

I'm truly not trying to turn this into a debate....just sort of pointing out where I stand.

Besides, I train for both Delta and the RSPCA....neither of whom would allow me to promote them, even if I did like them.....

(My highlights)

Not debating nor am I seeking to run you down - I say this up front in the hopes you don't take me the wrong way. I appreciate your candour, in fact . .....

Yeah, I know you're not trying to run me down, we're cool, but you know I have to respond....right???

But I would like to make a point about what you've said above. IMO, if we're really being fair on the dog, we should be able to tuck away what "we" like/dislike and truly apply what does or would work best for the dog. Now this might be the head collar OR it might be the PPCollar OR it might be something else. And if the "best thing" for the dog was also something that the owner was able to well manage and achieve the best results with then to me going for something that might be second best isn't something I'd entertain just because "I" prefer the second best option.

In "Willowworld", I have chosen what I belive to be best for the dog....I dislike headcollars too, but have put that aside because it's what I think is best for the dog. With PP collars etc, it's not a case of me thinking those things are best for the dog, and then dismissing them in order to live by a set of imposed values, I truly believe in my training method, and a world where tools like prongs, choke collars etc are not needed. I know you don't agree with it, that's ok, we are all different. Whereas when you train, you have a whole series of things in your head that you find acceptable, and would be happy to recommend, I have a different set of pictures, and different things I find personally acceptable. I don't ever really think prongs & checks etc are whats best for the dog. I just don't. It's just how I feel, and I can't change it any more than I can change the fact that I like strawberries but not grapes.

This is what puzzles me with organisations or trainers with methods that are not just preferred but where other methods/training tools are vetoed.

It's just a different belief system. If I wanted to use those methods (pp etc), I wouldn't work for organisations that think like this. I gravitated toward them because I share similar values. Trust me, if I was ever told to do somehting I didn't agree with, just because it was expected, I would walk away very fast (ask my mother ....."tell her to go left & she'll go right, just to make a point, even if she walks of a bloody cliff in the process!!!"). They can't promote themselves as positive & them employ people who teach the opposite.

I don't swear out any training tool because there is every likelihood that I will come across a dog whose temperament/disposition/situation/environment + owner ability/physical limitation will suit something that I might not ordinarily prefer.

I only do this with tools I find personally unacceptable.

It is what, in my heart of hearts, I think is best for the dog taking into account also its circumstances.

ETA: Willow - Doesn't Delta's course cover the different head collar styles and suitability for certain dogs; the things to be aware of; etc. etc.?

Me too Erny, but we have different sets of parameters about what we each personally find acceptable. Your point of view is to embrace any training tool as a possibility, depending on the circumstances. Mine is there are certain tools I don't, and will never find acceptable, so whilst you feel that under some circumstances, using a PP might be in the best interests of the dog, my belief that it is an uacceptable tool prevents me from ever seeing it's use as in the best interests of the dog.

Just different strokes for different folks

Oh, and yes, the Delta course does cover headwear, but I though it couldn't hurt to get the point of view of someone else.

[Erny]

I agree we all do what we think is best, but whether or not it is the best thing for the dog is another thing - I think that's what Erny was getting at.

Thank you Huski - that is what I am getting at. How can any of us say that one thing or another is never going to be "the best" for any dog in the world ever, when we don't know and will never know every dog/situation/person/circumstance (in combination) in the world?

[Erny]

Willow - thank you for responding and thank you for accepting my input for the conversation that it was intended as.

We may not see eye to eye on the particular points we are each making, but I think much of you simply for your attitude. There are many who I think could do well to take a leaf out of your book .

Edited September 13, 2009 by Erny

[Guest Willow]

I agree we all do what we think is best, but whether or not it is the best thing for the dog is another thing - I think that's what Erny was getting at.

Thank you Huski - that is what I am getting at. How can any of us say that one thing or another is never going to be "the best" for any dog in the world ever, when we don't know and will never know every dog/situation/person/circumstance (in combination) in the world?

Perhaps until the day all dogs learn to speak English & tell us all to **ss off cause we're all tools, and what they need is something totally different, perhaps we'll just have to run with what we feel we can each live with

BTW.....it's nice to have a debating thread that hasn't descended into verbally punching each other out....thank you ladies

ETA: cheers Erny :-)

Edited September 13, 2009 by Willow

[Cosmolo]

I just wanted to say that was a really articulate, well thought out and clear post Willow. I think it is a skill to be able to respectfully disagree or openly share different beliefs when it comes to training tools (as this is often not the case!) and i thought the posts by Willow and Erny were very good in this respect.

[JulesP]

I don't think there is anything wrong with any animal trainer deciding on boundaries

What about a body harness Willow?

[huski]

I don't think there is anything wrong with any animal trainer deciding on boundaries

I agree - as long as those boundaries don't negatively affect the animals they work with i.e. the trainers who only use a set training style and give up on any dogs that can't be trained within their boundaries (and in some cases, advise they should be PTS ).

I really appreciate your posts, too, Willow

[Erny]

I just wanted to say that was a really articulate, well thought out and clear post Willow. I think it is a skill to be able to respectfully disagree or openly share different beliefs when it comes to training tools (as this is often not the case!) and i thought the posts by Willow and Erny were very good in this respect.

LOL.

Thanks Cosmolo.

[Guest Willow]

I just wanted to say that was a really articulate, well thought out and clear post Willow. I think it is a skill to be able to respectfully disagree or openly share different beliefs when it comes to training tools (as this is often not the case!) and i thought the posts by Willow and Erny were very good in this respect.

Hehe...cheers Cosmolo....I must admit, I'm getting better as I get older (a bit like a nice cheese or wine!!)

What about a body harness Willow?

I think if we could get his head under control it would ease a lot of the issues he has...it's not just forward motion but alot of "ooh, look over here, and here....wow whats over there?? how about I go this way mum.....hey, ooh....whats this???" Without distraction, he's a delight, but with the tiniest distraction, he will tie himself in knots trying to look every which way but the way he is going!

I really appreciate your posts, too, Willow

Thanks

[corvus]

Me too Erny, but we have different sets of parameters about what we each personally find acceptable. Your point of view is to embrace any training tool as a possibility, depending on the circumstances. Mine is there are certain tools I don't, and will never find acceptable, so whilst you feel that under some circumstances, using a PP might be in the best interests of the dog, my belief that it is an uacceptable tool prevents me from ever seeing it's use as in the best interests of the dog.

And that (and the rest of what Willow said) was the point I was trying to make. I understood where Erny was coming from.

I'd find it damn hard to believe that some tools are ever the best because of the way I see the world and the way I relate to animals. Doesn't mean they don't work, or that if someone else thinks they are the best for their own reasons that they are wrong. It just means you do what you as an individual believes is the best, and for most of us here on DOL, that means whatever we think is best for the dog.

[spanky]

Thanks for the explanation. Guess I was curious as to whether you would refer the people on if you felt you couldn't fix the problem using your methods and that the person may achiever greater / quicker success with someone willing to use prongs / martingales.

I'd be quite happy for a trainer to explain there are methods they choose not to use, but which may help and be recommended to someone else.

Good luck with the boxer... having lived with one I know just how stubborn and silly they can be during their teenager phase. Turn out as beautiful mates if the owner sticks with it though.

If I was i a situation where I had a client who wanted to use say, a check chain, or prong collar, then I would explain where I stood....if they still wanted to use their tool of choice, I would refer them on to someone else who does use those training aids, explaining that as I don't use those tools, and don't recommend them, then I wouldn't be the trainer they were looking for, but they would be better off with someone who thought more along the same lines as they do.

I wouldn't say to someone, "I think you need a PP collar, but I don't use them, so I'll refer you" because in my head, I would never think they would need a PP collar.....does that make sense???

It's such a minefield, isn't it????? *chooses words carefully*

He's a super dog, absolutely lovely personality.....just going through a rather extreme teenage time!!!

I get what you are saying completely and like everyone else I appreciate you explaining in this post and the ones since. I like to hear the ways that different people approach training methods.