Headcollar For Boxer

[Guest Willow]

I'm not a massive fan of headcollars, but I have a client at their wits end, and a properly used headollar would be preferable (to both myself & the client) than other equipment, but I haven't really fitted many boxers....

I was just wondering if anyone had any favourite brands for this head shape? I keep thinking of a black dog halter.....has anyone tried thses with a short muzzled dog?

Rather than work my way through several, it would be good if I could offer them a try of just two or maybe three different types so we can see what suits them & their boy the best.

Thanks in advance!!!!

[4 Paws]

I believe the Gentle Leaders are supposed to be a good one for them

[Got Spots]

Saw on my travels through google the other day the demonstration of fitting the black dog halter on a boxer in a boxer forum- looked like it fitted nicely

[Cosmolo]

I've seen an old style halti fit and work well.

[Erny]

The Gentle Leader is not recommended for dogs with 'square' muzzles. It puts too much pressure on too small an area (ie the two outside edges of the dog's muzzle). You need to watch this even for any other brand/style of head collar, although with conscious awareness and care head collars can be ok on such dogs, although I'd like to think it was for the short term rather than the long term use.

[Guest Willow]

I'd like to think it was for the short term rather than the long term use.

Most certainly

The poor owner has lost all confidence, and I feel very sure that with short term use they could get control enough to help him re-learn a new way of conducting himself (without the headcollar).....he is a silly teenage male boxer....the owner is full aware that his age is a big contributing factor, but feels quite helpless & despondant, and has stopped enjoying him

Thanks for the tip about the GL Erny!!!!

[Erny]

I'd probably be inclined to contemplate training with the use of the PPCollar. I find it is easier and quicker to wean off from that to a different neck style collar than it is from a head collar to a neck collar. An excellent training tool and IMO less risk of accidental damage due to less leverage/stress/affect on the dog's skeleton, especially for a dog that is boundy boundy everywhere.

Any training tool (head collar inclusive) IMO should be used initially under supervision to ensure the handler understands it and knows how to use it properly.

Edited September 13, 2009 by Erny

[Pom]

I've tried a few different head collars with Griffen (DDB) and found the blackdog halter the best.

[Guest Willow]

I'd probably be inclined to contemplate training with the use of the PPCollar. I find it is easier and quicker to wean off from that to a different neck style collar than it is from a head collar to a neck collar. An excellent training tool and IMO less risk of accidental damage due to less leverage/stress/affect on the dog's skeleton, especially for a dog that is boundy boundy everywhere.

.

I know your stance on these Erny, but I am opposed to them....I do appreciate you are just trying to help though

[huski]

Why use a head collar though if it's not necessarily the best tool for the dog?

Could something like a martingale be appropriate?

Edited September 13, 2009 by huski

[spanky]

I'd probably be inclined to contemplate training with the use of the PPCollar. I find it is easier and quicker to wean off from that to a different neck style collar than it is from a head collar to a neck collar. An excellent training tool and IMO less risk of accidental damage due to less leverage/stress/affect on the dog's skeleton, especially for a dog that is boundy boundy everywhere.

.

I know your stance on these Erny, but I am opposed to them....I do appreciate you are just trying to help though

Is the client opposed to other options, or are they being guided by you? Have you explained the range of options to them in an unbiased fashion and allowed them to decide what they are comfortable with? Maybe if you can't help them by using a training tool suitable for the breed you should suggest they contact another trainer that will use that method.

[Guest Willow]

Why use a head collar though if it's not necessarily the best tool for the dog?

Knowing the dog, the behaviours & the owner, I do think a headcollar is the best option....now I just need to work out which of the many available are going to be better (or more to the point, which I need to avoid).

Your suggestion of a martingale is appreciated though, but in this instance it wouldn't be suitable

[huski]

Ah ok, good luck with the Boxer

[Guest Willow]

Ah ok, good luck with the Boxer

cheers

[Guest Willow]

I'd probably be inclined to contemplate training with the use of the PPCollar. I find it is easier and quicker to wean off from that to a different neck style collar than it is from a head collar to a neck collar. An excellent training tool and IMO less risk of accidental damage due to less leverage/stress/affect on the dog's skeleton, especially for a dog that is boundy boundy everywhere.

.

I know your stance on these Erny, but I am opposed to them....I do appreciate you are just trying to help though

Is the client opposed to other options, or are they being guided by you? Have you explained the range of options to them in an unbiased fashion and allowed them to decide what they are comfortable with? Maybe if you can't help them by using a training tool suitable for the breed you should suggest they contact another trainer that will use that method.

Sorry sparky....wasn't ignoring you....we must have posted at the same time & I missed your post!

They are being guided by me, as to what I feel is most appropriate for their situation (as I guess any client would be)...I won't recommend a training tool I don't agree with though. If by being unbiased I end up making it look like I am condoning training methods I don't advocate, then I've kind of shot myself in the foot (rambling much??? does that make sense??? ). Obviously someone who agrees with the use of (for example) prong collars, would have no dramas recommending them, but since I dislike the concept, for me personally, it will never be something I would recommend, or think is a good thing.

I'm truly not trying to turn this into a debate....just sort of pointing out where I stand.

Besides, I train for both Delta and the RSPCA....neither of whom would allow me to promote them, even if I did like them.....

[spanky]

Thanks for the explanation. Guess I was curious as to whether you would refer the people on if you felt you couldn't fix the problem using your methods and that the person may achiever greater / quicker success with someone willing to use prongs / martingales.

I'd be quite happy for a trainer to explain there are methods they choose not to use, but which may help and be recommended to someone else.

Good luck with the boxer... having lived with one I know just how stubborn and silly they can be during their teenager phase. Turn out as beautiful mates if the owner sticks with it though.

[Guest Willow]

Thanks for the explanation. Guess I was curious as to whether you would refer the people on if you felt you couldn't fix the problem using your methods and that the person may achiever greater / quicker success with someone willing to use prongs / martingales.

I'd be quite happy for a trainer to explain there are methods they choose not to use, but which may help and be recommended to someone else.

Good luck with the boxer... having lived with one I know just how stubborn and silly they can be during their teenager phase. Turn out as beautiful mates if the owner sticks with it though.

If I was i a situation where I had a client who wanted to use say, a check chain, or prong collar, then I would explain where I stood....if they still wanted to use their tool of choice, I would refer them on to someone else who does use those training aids, explaining that as I don't use those tools, and don't recommend them, then I wouldn't be the trainer they were looking for, but they would be better off with someone who thought more along the same lines as they do.

I wouldn't say to someone, "I think you need a PP collar, but I don't use them, so I'll refer you" because in my head, I would never think they would need a PP collar.....does that make sense???

It's such a minefield, isn't it????? *chooses words carefully*

He's a super dog, absolutely lovely personality.....just going through a rather extreme teenage time!!!

[Erny]

If by being unbiased I end up making it look like I am condoning training methods I don't advocate, then I've kind of shot myself in the foot (rambling much??? does that make sense??? ). Obviously someone who agrees with the use of (for example) prong collars, would have no dramas recommending them, but since I dislike the concept, for me personally, it will never be something I would recommend, or think is a good thing.

I'm truly not trying to turn this into a debate....just sort of pointing out where I stand.

Besides, I train for both Delta and the RSPCA....neither of whom would allow me to promote them, even if I did like them.....

(My highlights)

Not debating nor am I seeking to run you down - I say this up front in the hopes you don't take me the wrong way. I appreciate your candour, in fact .

But I would like to make a point about what you've said above. IMO, if we're really being fair on the dog, we should be able to tuck away what "we" like/dislike and truly apply what does or would work best for the dog. Now this might be the head collar OR it might be the PPCollar OR it might be something else. And if the "best thing" for the dog was also something that the owner was able to well manage and achieve the best results with then to me going for something that might be second best isn't something I'd entertain just because "I" prefer the second best option.

This is what puzzles me with organisations or trainers with methods that are not just preferred but where other methods/training tools are vetoed.

I don't swear out any training tool because there is every likelihood that I will come across a dog whose temperament/disposition/situation/environment + owner ability/physical limitation will suit something that I might not ordinarily prefer. And that's already occurred more that once. What "I" prefer, to me doesn't come into it when all is said and done. That's why I make the effort to know as much about a good variety of training tools and gain experience in their use as I feasibly can. And if there is an organisation that seeks to control my very genuine feeling and aim for the welfare of any dog, by prohibiting my membership with it just because I advocate a tool that THEY don't condone, then that would have to be their choice in the matter. And that has already happened to me too.

If there was an org that didn't like the head collar and as a result prohibited me from using it (as a trainer), that wouldn't stop me if I thought a head collar was the best tool for the job (and in my line or work, that has been the case from time to time). So I'm not using this as an argument for head collars -vs- PPCollars.

It is what, in my heart of hearts, I think is best for the dog taking into account also its circumstances. And that would count no matter whom I am or was trained by or how. And if I am barred from any organisation as a result of my unbiased and open-minded attitude, then I shall not take that as a prosecution, or at least not one that I deserve.

Oops ..... sorry - that turned out to sound like a speech. I guess in a way it is, although I didn't start out with that intent.

ETA: Willow - Doesn't Delta's course cover the different head collar styles and suitability for certain dogs; the things to be aware of; etc. etc.?

Edited September 13, 2009 by Erny

[corvus]

But I would like to make a point about what you've said above. IMO, if we're really being fair on the dog, we should be able to tuck away what "we" like/dislike and truly apply what does or would work best for the dog. Now this might be the head collar OR it might be the PPCollar OR it might be something else. And if the "best thing" for the dog was also something that the owner was able to well manage and achieve the best results with then to me going for something that might be second best isn't something I'd entertain just because "I" prefer the second best option.

Rubbish. Everyone on this board does what they think is best. It has already been stated that the head collar is the best tool for this particular dog and its owners.

I might always try rewarding what I want before punishing what I don't want, and that's because I think it is "best", just as an example. There are some things I would never do because I don't think it's "best" for the dog. Someone else might think it is exactly what that dog needs. We can only do what we think is best, and that is habitually the things we like. The things we dislike tend to be things we don't think works "best".

I don't know about Willow or anyone else, but the methods I think are "best" are defined by what has worked "best" for me in the past.

[huski]

But I would like to make a point about what you've said above. IMO, if we're really being fair on the dog, we should be able to tuck away what "we" like/dislike and truly apply what does or would work best for the dog. Now this might be the head collar OR it might be the PPCollar OR it might be something else. And if the "best thing" for the dog was also something that the owner was able to well manage and achieve the best results with then to me going for something that might be second best isn't something I'd entertain just because "I" prefer the second best option.

Rubbish. Everyone on this board does what they think is best. It has already been stated that the head collar is the best tool for this particular dog and its owners.

I might always try rewarding what I want before punishing what I don't want, and that's because I think it is "best", just as an example. There are some things I would never do because I don't think it's "best" for the dog. Someone else might think it is exactly what that dog needs. We can only do what we think is best, and that is habitually the things we like. The things we dislike tend to be things we don't think works "best".

I don't know about Willow or anyone else, but the methods I think are "best" are defined by what has worked "best" for me in the past.

I agree we all do what we think is best, but whether or not it is the best thing for the dog is another thing - I think that's what Erny was getting at.

For example - someone may think that a head collar is the best thing for the dog, but in reality it could be the worst tool for the dog. I'm not for a second trying to imply that is what is the case with Willow's client - but, speaking generally, what we may think will be the perfect tool may not be always be the best tool in reality. If what we thought was the best really was the best for the dog every time, then we would never make mistakes and discover there are better, alternative ways of doing things.

I am not a real fan of head collars, but if I was training a dog and the head collar was the best tool for that dog, I wouldn't persevere with a tool that wouldn't work as well just because of my personal bias.

ETA: Again, not directing this in any way to Willow - just responding to the discussion in general terms

Edited September 13, 2009 by huski