Toilet Training A Dog That Messes Her Crate

[corvus]

My mother is in an unfortunate position.

Last year she wanted a third dog and decided to get an older Sheltie puppy from a registered breeder. The pup was about 4 months old when my mum took her home. She was kind of assuming Shani would be mostly toilet trained by that stage, but it soon became apparent that something had gone awry. She wasn't in the least bit toilet trained, but worse, she had no problem messing her bed or her crate. She doesn't whine if she needs to go, she just goes.

So, she is now over a year old and my mum says she would like to think she is making progress with toilet training, but in reality she thinks she is just succeeding in having Shani outside more often. She has a pretty full schedule and doesn't really have time to take her out every couple of hours, which is why she got an older puppy in the first place. When she catches Shani going outside, she rewards like hell. Shani is delighted with this, but doesn't seem to have made the connection. If she needs to go and she is inside, she doesn't just go anywhere, she goes on her bed. My mum says if she puts Shani's food bowl in her crate with her, she displays a small amount of restraint and can last the night, but it's one of those things that she's loathe to play around with much because if Shani does one day go with her food bowl in the crate, what then? And she would, I think, with very little provocation.

Does anyone have anything to suggest?

[persephone]

'Umbilical' lead when in the house.

change of diet, to cut down amount of solid waste...

put dog to bed much later

train to toilet on a command.....

that's all I can think of at the moment...

[corvus]

I'll suggest the umbilical cord. She's already on raw, so solid waste is probably at a minimum already.

I think if she could be taught to toilet on command she would do so already. Mum's other two dogs do, and like I said, she hasn't made the connection between rewards and toileting. I'm not really sure why not, seeing as that's OC at it's most basic and she's a pretty quick-witted dog. Maybe it's not consistent enough.

[milzi09]

Clicker train the toileting on command - that way she can mark the precise behaviour that she is being rewarded for. Without using a marker by the time the dog recieves the treat she is being rewarded for something completely different.

For every time she goes in the correct place (outside) treat with 10 really good treats (I'd be using 10 tiny pieces of roast chicken every time to jackpot the behaviour).

Has the dog been checked out for any medical reasons for the lack of toileting control? eg UTI or something

[poodlefan]

How big is the crate?

Did your mum ask the breeder about toilet training?

Has she had a vet look at the issue?

[corvus]

Not sure if she's been checked by the vet, but she actively seeks out her bedding to toilet on. It's not a lack of control at all. She can go all night without needing to toilet. If she's inside and she needs to go, she goes on one of the dog beds no matter what she needs to do. It's more like she's imprinted on beds as the toilet. It's not just in her crate. If the crate is closed she'll go on any dog bed, but it'll be a dog bed, not just on the ground.

I am not 100% sure on the breeder, but Mother is not feeling very interested in speaking to her right now. She's raised plenty of puppies and crate trained the last two, I think. I think she is of the opinion that toilet training is basic stuff and what could the breeder possibly add except to explain how it is that her puppy thinks beds are where you toilet? She wouldn't know and if she did she wouldn't say is my guess from what I've heard.

The crate is what I would consider the right size for the dog. There's room for her to sleep comfortably in any position she likes. Erik doesn't even want to go in his pen and it's at least twice the size of Shani's crate and he's half the size of Shani.

Anyway, I'll pass on all the suggestions and see what she thinks. Clicker training might help her make that connection between toileting and rewards. I feel bad for her. Toilet training is one of those things that really impacts on your relationship with an animal. Thanks guys.

[poodlefan]

How does your mother know the dog was crated by the breeder?

Get a dog door. If the dog does not have access outside every time she needs it, she'll never get it.

I've seen petshop pups with very little toileting inhibition successfully trained in under 8 months. I suggest your Mum needs to give the dog access outside all the time and remove all bedding except at night.

Edited September 14, 2009 by poodlefan

[corvus]

Mum's last puppy was a petshop puppy. No problems at all with her.

Well, if I remember correctly the breeder said she was crate trained. Never met the breeder, though, so I can't say for certain. What else could have happened to result in this problem?

Unfortunately the dogs can't be given access to outside all the time as the cats have to be kept in. Shani is currently spending most of the day outside and has been for months. That's the best that can be done without forcing her to be out all the time.

[poodlefan]

Mum's last puppy was a petshop puppy. No problems at all with her.

Well, if I remember correctly the breeder said she was crate trained. Never met the breeder, though, so I can't say for certain. What else could have happened to result in this problem?

Unfortunately the dogs can't be given access to outside all the time as the cats have to be kept in. Shani is currently spending most of the day outside and has been for months. That's the best that can be done without forcing her to be out all the time.

I think the answer to the problem is the one identified by you... lack of consistency. If she's been toileting on dog beds for 8 months, that's a lot of reinforced behaviour. Some pups get it easier than others. If your mum didn't get her out each and every time she needed to go and still doesn't, the dog is doing what she knows.

Few 4 month old pups are reliably toilet trained. Sorry Corvus but if the pup is capable of holding overnight and doesn't soil her crate then, I'd put this one down to the owner, not the breeder.

You can get dog doors that only open for collars with an electronic key.

[Kelpie-i]

Dogs don't normally eliminate in their sleeping area as this goes against their natural instincts. Those that do, do so due for various reasons..

I would recommend starting housetraining from the very start again...as you would a young pup. Dog's become accustomed to eliminating on certain surfaces so in this case, your mum must re-train on a different surface. However, since this is 8 months of self reinforced behaviour, it's not going to be easy.

[corvus]

I think the answer to the problem is the one identified by you... lack of consistency. If she's been toileting on dog beds for 8 months, that's a lot of reinforced behaviour. Some pups get it easier than others. If your mum didn't get her out each and every time she needed to go and still doesn't, the dog is doing what she knows.

Few 4 month old pups are reliably toilet trained. Sorry Corvus but if the pup is capable of holding overnight and doesn't soil her crate then, I'd put this one down to the owner, not the breeder.

Shani has never cried in her crate. She'd just wake up and soil the crate in silence, from the day she came home. At least, that's the story I'm told and I believe it because a mother of 4 doesn't sleep through puppy whines. I don't sleep through puppy whines and I sleep like a log. The method my mother was using is almost exactly the same as mine and it really depends on a puppy making a noise if they need to go while in the crate, or at least fidgeting a bit. The rest is just vigilance. Are there puppies out there that naturally don't whine when they are confined and need to go? Everything I've heard says no.

Anyway, thanks for the ideas. Like I've said, Shani is already outside most of the time, so the inside toileting has been reduced down to just the early mornings and evenings or wet days when the dogs are inside.

[Sandra777]

Corvus - I'd have to wonder if it is possible to set up a puppy pen and eliminate all bedding for her for a while. Sounds mean but this is a Sheltie not a Chinese Crested ;)

Just a puppy pen on tiles or vinyl with either newspaper or astro turf and a clear area with nothing except floor and which I would expect her to make her bed area toys, water bowl etc. Shani can then be inside instead of locked out all the time, but not able to mess the house/other dog's beds. She could be out of the puppy pen on an umbilical lead for short periods of time and hopefully will start to break the connection between soft surfaces and toileting.

I have had dogs which have been surface aware and will only eliminate on grass and others which are space aware and will only eliminate outside but don't care what the surface is. I have no idea if this is learned or inbuilt but if it's learnt hopefully Shani can at least be taught to be surface aware and avoid bedding, beds etc.

[corvus]

Thanks Sandra, that is a great idea. I think it could work, seeing as it's bedding she seems to think of as a toileting surface.

[The Spotted Devil]

I think the answer to the problem is the one identified by you... lack of consistency. If she's been toileting on dog beds for 8 months, that's a lot of reinforced behaviour. Some pups get it easier than others. If your mum didn't get her out each and every time she needed to go and still doesn't, the dog is doing what she knows.

Few 4 month old pups are reliably toilet trained. Sorry Corvus but if the pup is capable of holding overnight and doesn't soil her crate then, I'd put this one down to the owner, not the breeder.

Shani has never cried in her crate. She'd just wake up and soil the crate in silence, from the day she came home. At least, that's the story I'm told and I believe it because a mother of 4 doesn't sleep through puppy whines. I don't sleep through puppy whines and I sleep like a log. The method my mother was using is almost exactly the same as mine and it really depends on a puppy making a noise if they need to go while in the crate, or at least fidgeting a bit. The rest is just vigilance. Are there puppies out there that naturally don't whine when they are confined and need to go? Everything I've heard says no.

Anyway, thanks for the ideas. Like I've said, Shani is already outside most of the time, so the inside toileting has been reduced down to just the early mornings and evenings or wet days when the dogs are inside.

My Dalmatian has never ever cried or whined when he needed to toilet. He came home as a (very mature) 8 week old pup who was trained to toilet on newspaper. I set him up at night in an open crate in the laundry with newspaper all over the floor. Each night I reduced the amount of newspaper he had to toilet on until he could hold on overnight (only took 2 weeks). I learned that he just gets a strange frown on his face when he needs to go outside - as a result I just took him outside every 30 min at a minimum as he was 99% indoors. I was incredibly vigilant so we didn't have many accidents. My OH is incredibly vague (bless him ) and I had to absolutely harangue him to do this also. When Zig was 9 months old I arrived home and realised he had lifted his leg in the hallway - I suspected it wasn't hormonal and questioned OH. It turns out he had completely forgotten to take Ziggy out all morning as he was involved in writing some music. I went back to taking Zig out every 30 mins and toileting him on command. Worked a treat :D He still doesn't ask to go outside - just looks a bit uncomfortable Mostly I don't let him get to that stage.

With foster kittens that insist on toileting on their bedding, I remove anything they find attractive (even food/water bowls) until I see that they have toileted.

[Sandra777]

My Dalmatian has never ever cried or whined when he needed to toilet.

I've got one like that. Mouse (Stafford) just walks backwards and forwards from where-ever I'm sitting to the door, stares at the door and comes back - which is really helpful when I'm in the office because I can't see the door so don't know if she's going to lie down on her bed or going to the door. After several times she will poke me with her nose, sigh and go back to the door and I finally get the message. If she'd just wait by the door and make some sort of noise it'd help!

[Staff'n'Toller]

My Dalmatian has never ever cried or whined when he needed to toilet.

I've got one like that. Mouse (Stafford) just walks backwards and forwards from where-ever I'm sitting to the door, stares at the door and comes back - which is really helpful when I'm in the office because I can't see the door so don't know if she's going to lie down on her bed or going to the door. After several times she will poke me with her nose, sigh and go back to the door and I finally get the message. If she'd just wait by the door and make some sort of noise it'd help!

A little program for an already smart Stafford. clickersolutions: ring my bell.

I'm not sure you'd even need to teach her to lick it...just teach her to target it with her nose before going outside and in a few reps I reckon she'd get it.

[corvus]

Latest news is that Shani has not messed in her crate all week and there was a little hint that perhaps she has figured out weeing in front of my mum gets her a reward.

Unfortunately there are some other more serious things going on and my mother has decided to get the help of a behaviourist.

[m-j]

Hi

When your mum rewards is it after the dog has gone to the toilet? If so this could be part of the problem ie the dog has relieved itself or is in the process and is thinking about something else, (the enticing smell wafting in on the breeze as an example). I like to start making a sound/s (keep going signal, I use a continuous yeah yeah)when the dog is thinking about going and while going, that the dog knows will eventually lead to a reward (I use my bridge word before giving the treat). During a recall is a good way to establish the sound as the KGS.

When I was riding trackwork we did this when teaching the horses to relieve themselves on cue.

cheers

M-J

I just thought I would add this even though your mums dog sounds like she may be "getting it".

[corvus]

Ooo, an intermediate bridge. Great idea! I'm sure Shani needs all the help she can get with this.