Protective But Not Aggressive Breeds

[Aidan]

I think people need to spend less time speculating about their dog's willingness or ability to protect them and more time learning how to manage risk (for which a dog and training may or may not play some part).

This thread reminds me of discussions on strength forums where the poster claims certain numbers for a lift, but has never competed. It's just hollow talk, usually stemming from some ignorant perception of what an actual lift under rules of competition looks like.

I know my dogs would make a lot of noise and I know that one of them has no qualms about fronting up, but I'm not sure what would happen if someone was swinging a cricket bat at me. If that person had a gun my dog becomes a massive liability, less chance of talking my way out of the situation with my dog going nuts. I try to avoid that sort of situation wherever possible

The original question is a moot point. You can't choose a breed because it is more likely to protect you, you can only choose a breed that will excel in the training required to protect you. That is why GSDs, Rotts, Malinois etc are used over, say, a LGD breed. Taking an Anatolian Shepherd out in public is more of a liability than an asset.

[poodlefan]

I think people need to spend less time speculating about their dog's willingness or ability to protect them and more time learning how to manage risk (for which a dog and training may or may not play some part).

Perhaps people might also ponder the irony of all the talk about being "alpha" to your dog but expecting it to step up to protect you when the going gets rough.. isn't pack protection the alpha's job??

[Akayla]

Not exactly Poodlefan. A wolf pack is complex but an aplha is a resource to the pack and they will defend them and their territory. But again its a complicated issue that would require long discussion.

[Diva]

The original question is a moot point. You can't choose a breed because it is more likely to protect you, you can only choose a breed that will excel in the training required to protect you. That is why GSDs, Rotts, Malinois etc are used over, say, a LGD breed. Taking an Anatolian Shepherd out in public is more of a liability than an asset.

I have had two dogs who fronted up to protect me in a real life situation. I don't know how long they would have held if really pushed of course. But the interesting thing for me is how different they were as dogs. One was a Belgian Shepherd, very protective her whole life of me and anything that belonged to me. She took it to extremes, but she was a breed where such protectiveness wasn't a huge surprise.

The other dog who stepped up was a male Borzoi. He was not the least interested in protecting property, he was friendly with everyone, not a guarding breed at all, generally the most unlikely candidate to step up. But he did, with excellent judgement and a keen determination. I guess my point is that sometimes it's just the dog, relying on breed choice without the necessary training is very moot IMHO.

Edited September 14, 2009 by Diva

[poodlefan]

Not exactly Poodlefan. A wolf pack is complex but an aplha is a resource to the pack and they will defend them and their territory. But again its a complicated issue that would require long discussion.

So a dog that is never allowed to exercise leadership over a person is expected to take the lead in defensive situation? Dogs that have been socialised from puppyhood never to put teeth on a human are expected to "naturally" take a person on? Unlike past times, we generally socialise our dogs to greet strangers positively, not tear strips off them.

We've had plenty of discussion on alpha wolf theory on this forum. Most of those discussions note that the original research that developed the theory was conducted on captive wolves and was fundamentally flawed. None of that theory has ever been tested in an inter species context. Dogs know we ain't dogs. If they do protect us, are we a resource to them?

Professional protection dog trainers have said time and again on this forum that people are deluding themselves if they genuinely expect an untrained dog, even of a guarding/protection breed, to step up when required. Those views have been poo pooed by many owners.

I'd say this thread proves the pros right. You may get lucky.. but then again.. why put your safety down to luck?

[llceaser]

Not exactly Poodlefan. A wolf pack is complex but an aplha is a resource to the pack and they will defend them and their territory. But again its a complicated issue that would require long discussion.

So a dog that is never allowed to exercise leadership over a person is expected to take the lead in defensive situation? Dogs that have been socialised from puppyhood never to put teeth on a human are expected to "naturally" take a person on? Unlike past times, we generally socialise our dogs to greet strangers positively, not tear strips off them.

We've had plenty of discussion on alpha wolf theory on this forum. Most of those discussions note that the original research that developed the theory was conducted on captive wolves and was fundamentally flawed. None of that theory has ever been tested in an inter species context. Dogs know we ain't dogs. If they do protect us, are we a resource to them?

Professional protection dog trainers have said time and again on this forum that people are deluding themselves if they genuinely expect an untrained dog, even of a guarding/protection breed, to step up when required. Those views have been poo pooed by many owners.

I'd say this thread proves the pros right. You may get lucky.. but then again.. why put your safety down to luck?

spot on

[Akayla]

Not exactly Poodlefan. A wolf pack is complex but an aplha is a resource to the pack and they will defend them and their territory. But again its a complicated issue that would require long discussion.

So a dog that is never allowed to exercise leadership over a person is expected to take the lead in defensive situation? Dogs that have been socialised from puppyhood never to put teeth on a human are expected to "naturally" take a person on? Unlike past times, we generally socialise our dogs to greet strangers positively, not tear strips off them.

We've had plenty of discussion on alpha wolf theory on this forum. Most of those discussions note that the original research that developed the theory was conducted on captive wolves and was fundamentally flawed. None of that theory has ever been tested in an inter species context. Dogs know we ain't dogs. If they do protect us, are we a resource to them?

Professional protection dog trainers have said time and again on this forum that people are deluding themselves if they genuinely expect an untrained dog, even of a guarding/protection breed, to step up when required. Those views have been poo pooed by many owners.

I'd say this thread proves the pros right. You may get lucky.. but then again.. why put your safety down to luck?

Where did I say any of that? Dont put words in my mouth. I have said myself several times that you cant just expect a dog to take care of you. It was you that is using words like NEVER.

"Perhaps people might also ponder the irony of all the talk about being "alpha" to your dog but expecting it to step up to protect you when the going gets rough.. isn't pack protection the alpha's job??" - I was mearly responding to this which infact not accurate account of behaviour. A subordinate wolf can take it onto themselves to defend something that is very crucial to their survival. Oh and thats wild wolves not captive bred.

I have also pointed out that even in the breeds mentioned even after training most will not make the cut. But in a wolf pack if the Alphas are missing the cahnces of the rest of the pack surviving is alot lower. The will and do react to the threat. I was talking about dogs I was pointing out misinformation.

[Jeff Jones]

rhapsodical78 as has been mentioned before, the testing will not be done by me...the testing will be done by independent and experienced dog trainers, they will obviously be evaluating your dog before any scenarios / testing takes place. I am not holding a gun to any ones head and forcing them to take there dog to these trainers free of charge for an assessment...if you do not think your dog can handle the test you did not have to pm me and you do not have to take your dog along to the trainer.

I have not agreed to test any dog that someone has mentioned is weak nerved, there dog is not taking part in the test...it is a voluntary exercise the people involved can pull out at any time, they will not be the ones out of pocket, I will. If the trainers believe the dogs are not suitable to be tested...then they will not be...

I am not going to continue to argue with you about something you have zero experience in. The results of the tests will be posted after all of them have been completed including what scenarios were involved.

I will respond to the other questions in this thread when I have more time as I have to head off to work shortly.

I'm not going to take my dog along because I do not live in Sydney.

I'm also not going to take my dog along because:

(a) You refuse to specify what the tests involve.

(b) I do not want to ruin my dog.

I would implore anyone who doesn't want to risk ruining their dog to also decline.

Further, a random sample of three won't produce results that are statistically significant so it's not going to prove anything, but hey, go ahead and knock yourself out at the potential expense of others.

If I wanted the results of the evaluation to be tainted and leave people with a bad experience from this exercise I would not be using independent dog trainers to complete the evaluation. I would simply do it myself, that way I could guarantee the results of the test are bias as I could make it so none of the dogs react and the scenarios are not appropriate for the dog and situation.

Instead I am going to the expense of using professional and experienced dog trainers, the 2 people who are willing to travel to Sydney will be getting their dogs evaluated and tested by K9 Force. This is a good opportunity for them to have their dogs evaluated and tested by one of Australia’s leading dog trainers.

For the last time, no one is being forced to be involved in these exercises and as you suggest they can withdraw.

For the 4 people involved (2 people wish to remain anonymous) and the other members on this forum following this thread it will be a great learning opportunity.

Edited September 14, 2009 by Jeff Jones

[llceaser]

Well your right ,I'm not the sharpest tool in the shed, I just enjoy the challange and like testing the spine of agressive dogs. I've been bitten a few times by dogs so I have no great fear of being bitten. I just love the primalness of facing off with agressive dogs to see if they are all show and no go or not.

I hope you are aware that triggering dogs to bite lowers their bite thresholds more often than not. I"d be mightily unimpressed by anyone who wanted to test themselves on my HA dog.

All actions have consequences.. for the owners of those dogs, your actions may very well have negative ones.

Your absolutely right. I never really thought that deeply about it. I have thought it fun to show people the reality of their dogs natures and nobody gains anything. Infact they probabley now think less of their dogs and may not be as nice to them. I will be more thoughtful in future.

[Akayla]

Thanks again for this opportunity Ooooo K9 Force Edited September 14, 2009 by Akayla

[cramet]

this should be interesting jeff

i wouldnt mind seeing this as well hearing the results

hmmm i wonder if jnr would be up for it

ill have to find out one day lol

[Guest rhapsodical78]

Not exactly Poodlefan. A wolf pack is complex but an aplha is a resource to the pack and they will defend them and their territory. But again its a complicated issue that would require long discussion.

So a dog that is never allowed to exercise leadership over a person is expected to take the lead in defensive situation? Dogs that have been socialised from puppyhood never to put teeth on a human are expected to "naturally" take a person on? Unlike past times, we generally socialise our dogs to greet strangers positively, not tear strips off them.

We've had plenty of discussion on alpha wolf theory on this forum. Most of those discussions note that the original research that developed the theory was conducted on captive wolves and was fundamentally flawed. None of that theory has ever been tested in an inter species context. Dogs know we ain't dogs. If they do protect us, are we a resource to them?

Professional protection dog trainers have said time and again on this forum that people are deluding themselves if they genuinely expect an untrained dog, even of a guarding/protection breed, to step up when required. Those views have been poo pooed by many owners.

I'd say this thread proves the pros right. You may get lucky.. but then again.. why put your safety down to luck?

And I've spoken to well respected professional trainers who have reiterated my view that a dog does not have to be alpha to step up to the plate when it sees that their alpha is not able to take position at that particular point.

That may be your view, poodlefan, but it's a very contested one.

[Guest rhapsodical78]

rhapsodical78 as has been mentioned before, the testing will not be done by me...the testing will be done by independent and experienced dog trainers, they will obviously be evaluating your dog before any scenarios / testing takes place. I am not holding a gun to any ones head and forcing them to take there dog to these trainers free of charge for an assessment...if you do not think your dog can handle the test you did not have to pm me and you do not have to take your dog along to the trainer.

I have not agreed to test any dog that someone has mentioned is weak nerved, there dog is not taking part in the test...it is a voluntary exercise the people involved can pull out at any time, they will not be the ones out of pocket, I will. If the trainers believe the dogs are not suitable to be tested...then they will not be...

I am not going to continue to argue with you about something you have zero experience in. The results of the tests will be posted after all of them have been completed including what scenarios were involved.

I will respond to the other questions in this thread when I have more time as I have to head off to work shortly.

I'm not going to take my dog along because I do not live in Sydney.

I'm also not going to take my dog along because:

(a) You refuse to specify what the tests involve.

(b) I do not want to ruin my dog.

I would implore anyone who doesn't want to risk ruining their dog to also decline.

Further, a random sample of three won't produce results that are statistically significant so it's not going to prove anything, but hey, go ahead and knock yourself out at the potential expense of others.

If I wanted the results of the evaluation to be tainted and leave people with a bad experience from this exercise I would not be using independent dog trainers to complete the evaluation. I would simply do it myself, that way I could guarantee the results of the test are bias as I could make it so none of the dogs react and the scenarios are not appropriate for the dog and situation.

Instead I am going to the expense of using professional and experienced dog trainers, the 2 people who are willing to travel to Sydney will be getting their dogs evaluated and tested by K9 Force. This is a good opportunity for them to have their dogs evaluated and tested by one of Australia’s leading dog trainers.

For the last time, no one is being forced to be involved in these exercises and as you suggest they can withdraw.

For the 4 people involved (2 people wish to remain anonymous) and the other members on this forum following this thread it will be a great learning opportunity.

Ok, that's fine, as long as you make them aware of the potential repercussions for their dog if they choose to be involved.

[poodlefan]

That may be your view, poodlefan, but it's a very contested one.

It's an opinion on a dog issue Rhaps.. they're ALL contested.

I don't think you see too many pups headed for protection work socialised just like pet puppies though. I don't think the method or the outcome are the same.

Most protection dogs are obedient to their handler. I'm not sure how many are trained to act independently of handler cues but will defer to the professionals on that. Isn't the whole point of a trained protection dog that it engages and disengages with a 'stranger' only on cue?

Edited September 14, 2009 by poodlefan

[Jeff Jones]

this should be interesting jeff

i wouldnt mind seeing this as well hearing the results

hmmm i wonder if jnr would be up for it

ill have to find out one day lol

I have a feeling Junior would do just fine in a similar evaluation.

[cramet]

all dog that are planed for protection work should be socialised like any other puppies if not more

in the world of police and militry and protection work if ur dog cant go some were because it has issuse that dog will eather be sold on depending on how bad the problem is or retrained

you want a dog that can handel people being friendly and miss gided as well as a angre/drunk numb skull the dog has to be a ALL ROUNDER not matter what

[Guest rhapsodical78]

I think people need to spend less time speculating about their dog's willingness or ability to protect them and more time learning how to manage risk (for which a dog and training may or may not play some part).

I don't cinsider my dog to be a risk. He made an accurate call once and has never done so since - he is also very well obedience trained.

This thread reminds me of discussions on strength forums where the poster claims certain numbers for a lift, but has never competed. It's just hollow talk, usually stemming from some ignorant perception of what an actual lift under rules of competition looks like.

Nice analogy, but it works both ways. It reminds me of people who actually lift, who then look at the rest of the world's population of muscled men and claim none of them could ever lift. Not only undoubtedly inaccurate but pretty arrogant, too.

If that person had a gun my dog becomes a massive liability, less chance of talking my way out of the situation with my dog going nuts. I try to avoid that sort of situation wherever possible

You're making the assumption that no potentially protective dog is obedience trained.

The original question is a moot point. You can't choose a breed because it is more likely to protect you, you can only choose a breed that will excel in the training required to protect you.

You can choose a breed for whatever reason you like. If you don't prioritise protection and are not interested in protection training, but want a dog with potential, then you're probably going to have a better chance with a Rottweiler than you are with a Cavalier King Charles Spaniel.

That is why GSDs, Rotts, Malinois etc are used over, say, a LGD breed. Taking an Anatolian Shepherd out in public is more of a liability than an asset.

This is garbage. I know of at least three cases (seems a small number until you consider the rarity of this breed in Australia) where people take their CAO/Kangal dogs out and about with no problems. You just have to know your dog.

I used to be friends with someone who brought her Anatolian to obedience every weekend. The dog was fantastic with people and pretty good with other dogs.

I knew another Anatolian who used to trial.

[Jeff Jones]

Most protection dogs are obedient to their handler. I'm not sure how many are trained to act independently of handler cues but will defer to the professionals on that. Isn't the whole point of a trained protection dog that it engages and disengages with a 'stranger' only on cue?

That is correct Poodlefan. The cue can be verbal or via contact with the handler, the response by the handler to the contact being made is the most important cue. This way it is not left up to the dog to interpret what is real and what isn't, it is a trained response to the handlers reaction.

Edited September 14, 2009 by Jeff Jones

[poodlefan]

Most protection dogs are obedient to their handler. I'm not sure how many are trained to act independently of handler cues but will defer to the professionals on that. Isn't the whole point of a trained protection dog that it engages and disengages with a 'stranger' only on cue?

That is correct Poodlefan. The cue can be verbal or via contact with the handler, the response by the handler to the contact being made is the most important cue. This way nothing is left up to the dog to interpret what is real and what isn't it is a trained response to the handlers reaction.

So theoretically, what would happen if a handler was incapacitated before cueing the dog to engage? Would the dog go to the handlers assistance uncued?

[Lets forget about the dogs that have a go at the handler ]

[Guest rhapsodical78]

That may be your view, poodlefan, but it's a very contested one.

It's an opinion on a dog issue Rhaps.. they're ALL contested.

I don't think you see too many pups headed for protection work socialised just like pet puppies though. I don't think the method or the outcome are the same.

Most protection dogs are obedient to their handler. I'm not sure how many are trained to act independently of handler cues but will defer to the professionals on that. Isn't the whole point of a trained protection dog that it engages and disengages with a 'stranger' only on cue?

Sure, protections dogs are trained to protect on cue. What does that have to do with the average dog?