Protective But Not Aggressive Breeds

[Guest rhapsodical78]

I didnt read the test as being a definitive breed survey! I saw it more that people who were curious as to whether their individual dog would protect them in a dangerous situation, would have the opportunity in a carefully controlled environment, with an extremely experienced trainer/handler present to put the question to the test!

Funny, I see it as Jeff trying to prove a point.

[huski]

I'm not going to take my dog along because I do not live in Sydney.

I'm also not going to take my dog along because:

(a) You refuse to specify what the tests involve.

(b) I do not want to ruin my dog.

I would implore anyone who doesn't want to risk ruining their dog to also decline.

Further, a random sample of three won't produce results that are statistically significant so it's not going to prove anything, but hey, go ahead and knock yourself out at the potential expense of others.

But if you're willing to and encourage your dog to defend you in a dangerous situation whats the difference In fact, you'd think Jeff's set up would actually be safer than real life because it's controlled.

Jeff already said that anyone who volunteered would be made clear on exactly what the testing would involve. I didn't see Jeff's offer as any attempt at getting statistics but just an opportunity for anyone who thinks their dog 'has what it takes' to be able to be assessed by a pro.

[Cosmolo]

I think the offer applies to Victorians too? As a few of the trainers mentioned are VIC based. I don't think the trainers involved are going to push dogs until they shutdown- certainly wouldn't need to go that far to prove a certain dog won't protect you.

I understand both sides here. I think there is something to be said (IN SOME CASES) for a dogs response to the chemical changes wihin a person under stress that MAY lead them to protect you (or themselves!) when they otherwise would not- in an instinct test for example. But i also think there are many dogs that owners think would protect them that actually would not.

[Guest rhapsodical78]

I'm not going to take my dog along because I do not live in Sydney.

I'm also not going to take my dog along because:

(a) You refuse to specify what the tests involve.

(b) I do not want to ruin my dog.

I would implore anyone who doesn't want to risk ruining their dog to also decline.

Further, a random sample of three won't produce results that are statistically significant so it's not going to prove anything, but hey, go ahead and knock yourself out at the potential expense of others.

But if you're willing to and encourage your dog to defend you in a dangerous situation whats the difference In fact, you'd think Jeff's set up would actually be safer than real life because it's controlled.

Jeff already said that anyone who volunteered would be made clear on exactly what the testing would involve. I didn't see Jeff's offer as any attempt at getting statistics but just an opportunity for anyone who thinks their dog 'has what it takes' to be able to be assessed by a pro.

I've never encouraged my dog to protect me. He just did it. And it may have had a detrimental effect in that he became slightly more territorial (and this is completely controlled in my presence) but hell, I'm alive - it's worth the risk.

Well that's a very generous offer - silly me thinking it would have anything to do with this conversation.

[Guest rhapsodical78]

I think the offer applies to Victorians too? As a few of the trainers mentioned are VIC based. I don't think the trainers involved are going to push dogs until they shutdown- certainly wouldn't need to go that far to prove a certain dog won't protect you.

Does it?

I hope they won't push the dogs that far, but nothing has been specified here so I can verify that.

[Rex]

Hi Rex,

He is mostly disinterested. He will stand still and allow himself to be stroked or patted if I am next to him but otherwise he is calm and aloof - certainly does not seek attention but would no more fire up than fly to the moon. If he is with another dog who is aggressive then he will fire up but on his own, absolutely not.

He is the same with other dogs - prefers to ignore them - if they are wildly submissive ie puppies licking at his mouth and lying on tehir backs he will stand their attention for a while but basically he prefers to remain aloof. Having said that, a dog that is at all dominant who tries to put their chin on his back for example he will fire up at.

Your GSD Brooke sounds like the temperament that we were hoping for lol!!!. Our's is completely different where he will reliably fire up at any strangers people and dogs unless we command him not to which has been the focus of his training to date. With this thread in mind, I tested him today on our walk and watched his reactions. Walking along at ease when spotting a stranger he is alert to them and watches intently, neck stretched, tail out straight. On a "leave it" command, he looks at me and the tail drops, keeps looking at the stranger but doesn't react. Without a "leave it" command, he will gather speed to the end of the leash when the stranger is about 10 meters in front of us approaching and bark furiously pulling on the leash up on his back legs bearing his teeth. An "out" command now trained, he drops back into a heel position and behaves. In a "leave it sit command", he will sit quietly where a stranger can approach and talk. If I command "up", he will fire up bark and lunge at them. His instinct is to "get em", his training is to behave. He won't fire up on command or bark on command, he behaves on command. A great natural defender, but a handful of dog to control.

[Rex]

Furthermore to protection dogs, are they "really" protecting something or someone, or are they being deployed to react in a certian way to a particular situation as a defence mechanism or tool of the trade. I don't believe that my GSD is protecting me personally, I believe he is more dominating strangers but the result of that is a big set of bared teeth and big bark between me and a possible threat which makes the threat retreat. Either way it achieves the same effect.

[llceaser]

I just laugh when I see people with usually large aggressive looking dogs say to me just watch out my dog will protect me to the death and yea there they are on the end of a lead or behind a fence going ape at me like they would just love to kill me. I've had 90 percent of these dogs either eating out of my hand or running scared with a yell and a run at them or a stern command .With the owner still near me most will ususally not run too far before turning back for another bark. Even the ones with balls don't attack straight out. They stand their ground and let you know you'll have a fight on your hands if you continue your dominant display.

I've had a shepherd and a shepherd cross who were both runners. Smart loving dogs who I'm sure would assist me in a fight if I was winning but run and bark from a distance if the going got tough.

The only dog I have known that I really believe would fight to the death to protect his owner or even his stuff when his owner was out of the room or house was a bully cross blue heeler my uncle owned. Never barked or made a fuss and was friendly as hell when out with his owner but just move wrong when my uncle wasn't there or get my uncle upset and he would rush you and stand there growling. I got a couple of warning nips in the time I knew him and he was almost shot by a couple of coppers who he had bailed up out the back of my uncles home. The cops were chasing a crook over back fences and the crook was too quick for the dog but the cops were not allowed to leave.

Jeez I loved that dog. I still have a fang mark on my neck and every time I shave I smile when I see it.

[Akayla]

If you are refering to me I never said my dog had weak nerve infact I would say the opposite. However Ive had alot of experience with defence dogs myself and I know that just because a dog appears to have strong nerve that doesnt mean they would pass a full series of tests - very few actually do.

My bitch is a GSD from a good line but they were not selectively breed fro military work - nor has she recieved training in protection. She has growled and stepped between twice but everyone else backs off so as too her actual nerve Im left unsure. I would like to get her assessed - I intended on having a close friend check her out any way, but it wont likely happen ATM. This is a fantastic oppertunity to get an unbiased opinion on her workability. Ive had experience with ex defence dogs and know what I will be handling/training if she does show potential.

Thanks Jeff Jones

[Rex]

I just laugh when I see people with usually large aggressive looking dogs say to me just watch out my dog will protect me to the death and yea there they are on the end of a lead or behind a fence going ape at me like they would just love to kill me. I've had 90 percent of these dogs either eating out of my hand or running scared with a yell and a run at them or a stern command .With the owner still near me most will ususally not run too far before turning back for another bark. Even the ones with balls don't attack straight out. They stand their ground and let you know you'll have a fight on your hands if you continue your dominant display.

I've had a shepherd and a shepherd cross who were both runners. Smart loving dogs who I'm sure would assist me in a fight if I was winning but run and bark from a distance if the going got tough.

The only dog I have known that I really believe would fight to the death to protect his owner or even his stuff when his owner was out of the room or house was a bully cross blue heeler my uncle owned. Never barked or made a fuss and was friendly as hell when out with his owner but just move wrong when my uncle wasn't there or get my uncle upset and he would rush you and stand there growling. I got a couple of warning nips in the time I knew him and he was almost shot by a couple of coppers who he had bailed up out the back of my uncles home. The cops were chasing a crook over back fences and the crook was too quick for the dog but the cops were not allowed to leave.

Jeez I loved that dog. I still have a fang mark on my neck and every time I shave I smile when I see it.

I wouldn't call that a cleaver practice to believe that you can dominate every cranky dog and remain uninjured. Try out a police K9 GSD next time you see the squad. Ask the officer if you can give his dog a yell and run to see if it backs down. Most dog handlers would be glad to oblige and let us know what happens.

[Wazzat Xolo]

Just come top WA where the dogs used to be trained by a non qualified trainer and they lose the Police Dogs on Man work they do!

Nobody I believe was in fact making the direct reference to Police dogs ( who believe it or not are not the be all and end all, just trained dogs, and yes I have the ability to quote on this.) I think the post was in refernce to dogs in general!

J

I just laugh when I see people with usually large aggressive looking dogs say to me just watch out my dog will protect me to the death and yea there they are on the end of a lead or behind a fence going ape at me like they would just love to kill me. I've had 90 percent of these dogs either eating out of my hand or running scared with a yell and a run at them or a stern command .With the owner still near me most will ususally not run too far before turning back for another bark. Even the ones with balls don't attack straight out. They stand their ground and let you know you'll have a fight on your hands if you continue your dominant display.

I've had a shepherd and a shepherd cross who were both runners. Smart loving dogs who I'm sure would assist me in a fight if I was winning but run and bark from a distance if the going got tough.

The only dog I have known that I really believe would fight to the death to protect his owner or even his stuff when his owner was out of the room or house was a bully cross blue heeler my uncle owned. Never barked or made a fuss and was friendly as hell when out with his owner but just move wrong when my uncle wasn't there or get my uncle upset and he would rush you and stand there growling. I got a couple of warning nips in the time I knew him and he was almost shot by a couple of coppers who he had bailed up out the back of my uncles home. The cops were chasing a crook over back fences and the crook was too quick for the dog but the cops were not allowed to leave.

Jeez I loved that dog. I still have a fang mark on my neck and every time I shave I smile when I see it.

I wouldn't call that a cleaver practice to believe that you can dominate every cranky dog and remain uninjured. Try out a police K9 GSD next time you see the squad. Ask the officer if you can give his dog a yell and run to see if it backs down. Most dog handlers would be glad to oblige and let us know what happens.

[Aramiss]

Hi Fitz Kettle and the totally gorgeous Morgan,

Yes I didn't ever want to run the risk of my dog injuring someone but just like you, I assumed the dog would act as a deterrent at least - ah well, good thing he trusts me to keep him safe and is a well-behaved dog! After all, every day I am his leader and need him to trust me to make decisions ......and hopefully never again will we be in the situation we were in the other day so....

All's well! and yes puppy pics can't help but lift anyone's spirits!

With deterrent I meant for our home security, not my personal safety, usually robbers will move on if they see a large dog, and that's all I really want or expect, with your situation there's not much either of you could have done, disturbed people are unpredictable for people and dogs, and it must have been a troubling experience for you both

When my dogs and I are walking, early in the mornings now its heating up, my little ones are complete brats and will bark at people getting to close. Its a pain, but its manageable given their small size, with Morgan I am going to have to step it up a notch and make sure he is properly socialized and trained, and I am looking forward to it lol. I've been working on Fitz ad Kettle's behavior but after our incident last year they have been a lot more wary of strangers, and it's sad because they used to welcome a pat and a bit of attention from other pedestrians.

I have some ideas for correcting the little ones, and I will start seeing what will work with them, my research on large breeds and training has given me a lot of insight into my own handling methods, and what I am doing wrong, and I hope to put it right Already Morgan has helped us lol, and all he had to do was make me realize how very big he will be, and how important proper handling is for everyone's well-being and happiness.

Speaking of Morgan, I'm posting at 4:20 am because someone needed to go out, and now I can't go back to sleep, so sorry for my random musings

[Kavik]

Personally I am glad that Diesel is of the temperament that I was able to easily walk through Paws in the Park without worrying about what his reaction would be to a large crowd of people and dogs. He got lots of attention and loved it He is such a social doofus of a dog. OK would have liked more fire and drive so I could harness it for obedience competition, but it is nice to have one dog to take to social events.

We got to watch as Steve Austin showed off some of his protection trained dogs (Rotty and Malinois - gosh it is a nice looking Mal!) and a retired service dog and new pup as well. All of those dogs walked through the crowd of people with no problem and certainly they did not fire up at any of the crowd - did exactly as they were supposed to do.

[Monah]

THat's what I think of as a good dog too kavik.

Not a habit of mine, but I saw Airport yesterday on TV. Did anyone else see it? ANyway, there was a magnificent GSD on a plane, taking up 2 seats He had been in India, searching for survivors in an earthquake and was flying back to new york via Heathrow. Anyway, he needed a wee as he had not been for 12 hours and was also dehydrated from spening 4 days in the desert. The handler was great and extremely protective and worried about the dog. I was SO impressed witht he dog, taken by a stranger, down the plane steps, to go for wees in the kennels (because of laws). This dog was quietly confident, HUGE!, calm, obedient etc. and the animal health ranger just fell in love with him.

To me this is the behaviour I would prefer and want from a GSD. I don't consider a volatile or 'scary' dog a good dog. Nerves of steel should translate into confidence, not flying off the handle by being 'protective'.

I dont know how we got onto 'trained' protection type dogs, but I loved next door to a police GSD for many years and was able to spend a lot of time with him as his owner worried about us because OH was away so often! even though I said we were fine. Anyway, the dog was perfect and did nothing, ever, without his trainer's say so. He certainly never 'took the law' into his own paws.

For the OP, I wouldn't worry too much about what happened with your dog. Most people would steer clear because of how he looks. It was very unlucky that the person had illness issues because someone in their 'right' frame of mind would have avoided you and the dog. It's almost a one off experience that hopefully never happens again. Keep the inof to yourself too. My mum told s guy at our door (asking where someone lived, bogus!) that don't worry, the wolfhounds are sooks and wont do a thing!!! BAH! Next day we were robbed. and the bloody dogs slept through it!!!!

[Akayla]

totally agree with the last two posts.

My old girl Akayla is very relaxed - kids harrass her dogs bite her and even if she was off lead she wouldnt blink an eye. But Ive seen her launch into action before - scary is an understatement! She was an ex RAAF dog and she would be the dog I trusted completely, more so than the dogs that havent been trained. She looks to me first before she does anything and will only take things into her own paws if we arent there.

An example was when my mum was broken into. Police found a broken back window, a back door with paw prints around the handle, foot prints going in half way, paw prints following and foot print exciting - some blood left behind - but could have been glass as much as anything. Important thing is that Akayla can open doors and who ever it was that shut the door didnt lock it - and the didnt make it past the hallway.

Akayla will also do things for my mother without being asked. Like hearding her small disobedient dogs back and not allowing them to run off again. And if mum cries out, again she will open the back door and let herself in.

she also brakes her training with kids and will drop the ball rather than place it in the hand as most kids are too scared of her. She wont allow kids to drown or get up too high (her defination of this does not macth mine ).

However if I asked her to leave it she would do so. She is what I breed towards temp wise.

[llceaser]

I just laugh when I see people with usually large aggressive looking dogs say to me just watch out my dog will protect me to the death and yea there they are on the end of a lead or behind a fence going ape at me like they would just love to kill me. I've had 90 percent of these dogs either eating out of my hand or running scared with a yell and a run at them or a stern command .With the owner still near me most will ususally not run too far before turning back for another bark. Even the ones with balls don't attack straight out. They stand their ground and let you know you'll have a fight on your hands if you continue your dominant display.

I've had a shepherd and a shepherd cross who were both runners. Smart loving dogs who I'm sure would assist me in a fight if I was winning but run and bark from a distance if the going got tough.

The only dog I have known that I really believe would fight to the death to protect his owner or even his stuff when his owner was out of the room or house was a bully cross blue heeler my uncle owned. Never barked or made a fuss and was friendly as hell when out with his owner but just move wrong when my uncle wasn't there or get my uncle upset and he would rush you and stand there growling. I got a couple of warning nips in the time I knew him and he was almost shot by a couple of coppers who he had bailed up out the back of my uncles home. The cops were chasing a crook over back fences and the crook was too quick for the dog but the cops were not allowed to leave.

Jeez I loved that dog. I still have a fang mark on my neck and every time I shave I smile when I see it.

I wouldn't call that a cleaver practice to believe that you can dominate every cranky dog and remain uninjured. Try out a police K9 GSD next time you see the squad. Ask the officer if you can give his dog a yell and run to see if it backs down. Most dog handlers would be glad to oblige and let us know what happens.

Well your right ,I'm not the sharpest tool in the shed, I just enjoy the challange and like testing the spine of agressive dogs. I've been bitten a few times by dogs so I have no great fear of being bitten. I just love the primalness of facing off with agressive dogs to see if they are all show and no go or not.

[poodlefan]

Well your right ,I'm not the sharpest tool in the shed, I just enjoy the challange and like testing the spine of agressive dogs. I've been bitten a few times by dogs so I have no great fear of being bitten. I just love the primalness of facing off with agressive dogs to see if they are all show and no go or not.

I hope you are aware that triggering dogs to bite lowers their bite thresholds more often than not. I"d be mightily unimpressed by anyone who wanted to test themselves on my HA dog.

All actions have consequences.. for the owners of those dogs, your actions may very well have negative ones.

[corvus]

Holy cow! Lucky you haven't received an uninhibited bite yet, hey llceaser? My mother was unfortunate enough to have a serious dog fight break out with her in the middle one day. Both dogs were small-medium and both were dogs I'd expect would run away if directly threatened, but one of them got her finger in the confusion and made a right mess of it. When dogs want to do damage they do. If you deliberately provoke inhibited bites, sooner or later a dog is going to do you some real harm. I heard a horror story once about an ACD that bit a little girl's hand and took one and a half fingers clean off. I believed it. Dogs have the power in their jaws to crunch small bones. I wouldn't mess around with that and depend on inhibited bites!

Once again, a thread about breeds with guarding tendencies has degenerated into an argument about whether an individual dog will run away if seriously threatened. I don't have any dogs I think for a moment would protect me, and never have. I think that many breeds would be likely to defend their owners if they thought there was a threat. I don't think these dogs would necessarily do it EVERY time. I would hope there wouldn't be many times.

Some individual dogs need to be taught what is a threatening situation and what is not. It is my belief that some dogs know this instinctively. Some go on previous experience. I don't agree with expecting any individual dog that hasn't been protection trained to protect you, but there's a lot to be said for getting a big guard breed with protection instincts. A lot of herding dogs can be quite surprising when put on the spot as well. I think it's a topic that is hard to make generalisations about.

[Shakti]

Akayla - WOW!! I would love a dog like that so much!! (not that I don't love Ben - it's just.....well,,,you know what I mean!)

[Akayla]

I think Corvus that people should just be aware that we are on a forum that is just "all talk" - we cant even see the person who is doing the talking. No one should run out and do anything stupid with their dog just because they heard someone talking on here. Nor should they make decisions based on breeds ect. Better to talk to a breeder if they are truelly interested.

I just think people should keep that in mind no matter the subject discussed.

I think the OP question has been answered. That no matter what the breed you may have a dog that will run, but they have been given some breed names that are more predisposed to being protective.

Thanks I have been blessed to have her in my life and I will really miss her when she is gone. Having her certainly puts the others character in perspective and gives me a goal as a breeder. It also has a lot to do with socialisation and training. From personal experience I can say you cant skip out on this bit. Taking your young pup and showing them boats, cars, motor bikes, malls, shops, schools, as many animals as you can manage, equipement EVERYTHING but done in the right way so as a dog they dont fear so much of the world around them. Then the training should be done right and often and in the end you should end up with a dog that is generally laid back and relaxed and can tune out the world around them.

However to what degree that can be achieved depends on the individual animal. In the line of defence, protection dogs many would fail. But so long as you have a relaxed dog that you dont have to be afriad to walk and is tuned into you is all you need for a pet.

Its good you love your dog any way. With lots of training you may find that your dog will focus alot more on you. Im trying to remember what I was told..... Something along the lines of you cant expect a dog to protect someone they dont really respect or something....Basically in training a dog you form a stronger bond, a higher status and the animal is more likley to want to stand up for you (as a precious object to defend). I dont know maybe one of the other guys that are in that line of work can remember what it is Im trying to say