Protective But Not Aggressive Breeds

[Jeff Jones]

3 out of the 4 people involved have made appointments with trainers and not shown up to have their dogs assessed. (Some have made multiple appointments) I realise emergency and family situations can pop up but I fail to see how in one instance the person made 5 separate appointments claiming they could not attend each one on the day because of “family emergency”.

I have gone to the expense of finding independent and highly qualified dog trainers for people to get there dogs assessed by to end up with the trainers telling me to date no one has kept their original appointments.

Lilli has been patiently waiting to have her dog tested and will hopefully be booked in to have it done soon.

Edited March 19, 2010 by Jeff Jones

[Shakti]

I am so sorry that has happened Jeff - I would have loved to have had the opportunity to do this test but I am in Melbourne. Like you, I absolutely understand family emergencies can happen - I am a foster carer of small children and we know what it is like to be suddenly caught on the hop - but I do think that five appointments strains credibility.

[Pepi]

I dont know a whole lot about protective dogs but i know my uncle owned a Rotty and he was never trained to be aggressive, although he did have basic obedience training and one day my Uncle tied him to the tree outside and his friend came over and there was a fight inside the house and this man was lashing out at my Uncle in clear view of the Rotty and he some how managed to get himself off the lead and broke threw the glass sliding door and gave this man a few good bites until he stopped lashing out at my Uncle.

This dog was always over protective of my uncle and yet he wasnt trained to do so.

[rottidogspotty]

um, what's a GSD? lol... I thought German Shepard ... Dog? lol

I have no idea what my Jess (rotty) would do... she sounds scarey and looks scarey, that's enough I think... I have a pepper spray I carried with me when I was going on public transport when I lost my license for points...

But like Brook, I have never thought to carry the pepper spray with me when I'm walking Jess because, I just assumed Jess would protect me... and I walk her sometimes when it's really late/ dark ... *makes note to start taking pepper spray to protect me AND the Jessy dog* lol

[Jake-K9]

It's a basic FACT that there is no way to predict the behaviour of an untrained dog in a given situation. Buying another dog of a different breed is not going to fix the problem. You may not want a 'personal protection' dog, but ANY dog is going to need SOME training to react reliably in a confrontational situation.

It is entirely possible to train a dog to bark and bounce about on the end of its lead on command without teaching it to bite, but you'd want to enlist professional help to do so to ensure you still had a stable dog and didn't just confuse the hell out of it. Even then there is no guarantee your dog would continue to stand its ground if the barking didn't work.

A dog that WILL RELIABLY protect when it comes to the crunch needs a LOT of training and confidence building, and has to be taught to believe in itself that it can overcome the threat (by biting and fighting it - and/or smashing it with a muzzle) and needs to be shown over and over again that it CAN win, because if that dog has any doubt in its mind whatsoever about its ability to overcome the threat, when push comes to shove, it's going to bail...

Sure, there are some dogs out there who will step up when threatened, but there is no way of knowing until it happens. And a dog who barks and growls at a person who is threatening verbally may not hang around if the person starts getting physical. Even a dog who is game enough to take a bite, will most likely only nip with the front teeth and may not hang on. And if the dog itself is attacked, kicked, hit with a stick, etc, then odds of fido doing the bolt increase dramatically.

It's one thing to go for a walk with a large scary looking dog - enough to make MOST people think twice - but it's another altogether to RELY on an untrained dog to defend during a confrontation. Think about it, if someone is mad enough to have a go at a person walking a large dog, there's a good chance they are drunk or high on drugs and really aren't going to give much of a toss unless the dog shows it means business!

Anyway, that's my rant for the night... looking forward to seeing if anyone actually carries through with getting their dogs tested, and how the results turn out...

[justin19801]

You should see a dog as a deterrent. Attack training your dog could end up having it labelled as dangerous and all the BS that goes with that. If the person who attacked you was mentally disturbed or on drugs then no dog would have helped. Much easier to teach your dog to bark on command. If it did attack him no telling what legal ramifications you could find yourself in.

[moosmum]

While I do agree no one should rely on an untrained dog for protection,I have found it is possible to breed for a protective instinct and that aggression in normal situations does not need to be a part of of that.So far I have not heard of one of these dogs who has not shown this instinct to some degree when required.

One of our least aggressive girls went to a teen who takes her every where.She loves children where ever she can find then and wins over nervous mums at the park where the children play with her for hours,tryingf to call her up on the slippery dip.This dog hid from a beagle pup at puppy pre school.

Her owner has told me on a recent holliday where they were staying with family the owner of this dog started screaming when her uncle tried to throw her into the pool.This dog grabbed the uncle by the ankle and refused to let go untill he released her owner,who came away with just a few minor scratches.This is one of our smallest and least aggressive dogs.

I agree she would likely not step up where the going was serious,and her reactions should never be relied on.But I believe it shows that aggression and a protective instinct do not have to be part of the same make up.

Our bigger,more confident and dominant types show a obvious and increased willingness to take on a threat and are placed accordingly.None have so far gone to security or been trained in P.P.work.

but we have lots of stories of the dogs natural instincts kicking in.Those chosen for the task have only got angrier if the threat escalates and shown great confidence at those times.This is not to say untrained dogs should be relied on,OR deliberatly put into dangerous situations, but I believe natural abilities and instincts are underestimated and dismissed too readily.

Edited March 20, 2010 by moosmum

[Longcoat]

While I do agree no one should rely on an untrained dog for protection,I have found it is possible to breed for a protective instinct and that aggression in normal situations does not need to be a part of of that.So far I have not heard of one of these dogs who has not shown this instinct to some degree when required.

One of our least aggressive girls went to a teen who takes her every where.She loves children where ever she can find then and wins over nervous mums at the park where the children play with her for hours,tryingf to call her up on the slippery dip.This dog hid from a beagle pup at puppy pre school.

Her owner has told me on a recent holliday where they were staying with family the owner of this dog started screaming when her uncle tried to throw her into the pool.This dog grabbed the uncle by the ankle and refused to let go untill he released her owner,who came away with just a few minor scratches.This is one of our smallest and least aggressive dogs.

I agree she would likely not step up where the going was serious,and her reactions should never be relied on.But I believe it shows that aggression and a protective instinct do not have to be part of the same make up.

Our bigger,more confident and dominant types show a obvious and increased willingness to take on a threat and are placed accordingly.None have so far gone to security or been trained in P.P.work.

but we have lots of stories of the dogs natural instincts kicking in.Those chosen for the task have only got angrier if the threat escalates and shown great confidence at those times.This is not to say untrained dogs should be relied on,OR deliberatly put into dangerous situations, but I believe natural abilities and instincts are underestimated and dismissed too readily.

This is an interesting topic I would never suggest people's account of their dogs stepping up when required isn't true, but considering the OP's working line GSD which are at the top end of protection breeds running away at the crunch, I personally wouldn't trust non protective breeds to be relaible at all. Most non protective breeds don't have the genetic nerve to be trained in protection let alone perform successfully from instinct. Most untrained dogs that I have seen tested under pressure that will step up and fight are dominant and aggressive by nature and are not easily handled by the average pet owner given their poor behavior in public with a desire to chase and attack anyone and anything that doesn't belong in their family pack. Most of these types of dogs, the owners know they will step up as the foundation of training has been to prevent the dog from reacting which takes a lot of work to achieve sociability.

There is a huge difference between a dog acting defensively as a deterrent than a dog that will step up and fight for your life, even in the protective breeds, it's not easy to find a dog with the right nerve strength to be trained successfully for protection work anyway. Any commonly known protective breed, GSD, Rotty, Doberman, breeds of that type that will bark on command and bounce around on the end of the leash is really the best it gets for a physical deterrent untrained IMO.

Edited March 20, 2010 by Longcoat

[Longcoat]

You should see a dog as a deterrent. Attack training your dog could end up having it labelled as dangerous and all the BS that goes with that. If the person who attacked you was mentally disturbed or on drugs then no dog would have helped. Much easier to teach your dog to bark on command. If it did attack him no telling what legal ramifications you could find yourself in.

This is not quite correct about dogs attacking in defence of people or property where most legislation permits it providing the dog is on your premises and is not deployed to attack off leash in a public place. Attack "trained" dogs are more reliable against indiscriminant attacks than an untrained dog and have the obediance reliability to abort an attack and out on command where an untrained dog acting on impulse doesn't.

[sparkycat]

I haven't read through this threas but my Lappie really amazed me the other day.

Lappies are know to be loving gentle submissive dogs and mine is certainly all that -her nickname is " Love-bunny"

I took her to the local dog park and there were only a couple of other dogs there -she made friends straight away (as usual) and started running around with a very big young retriever.

I was talking to the retrievers owner and not really watching the dogs -the retriever run full belt into me and knocked me over. My Lappie instantly started vocally telling him off and was so forceful that he backed under a bench with her still yelling at him.

So I feel much safer now with my vocal Lappie protector dog.

[ILK]

Occasionally my Kelpies have shown that they will go into protection mode, but there have also been times when a strange workman has entered my yard and they have run to play.

I personally think when we have a companion dog it is unpredictable and can't be relied upon or expected because it is not what we got them for.

[aussielover]

I would want my dog to bark at a potentially dangerous person, but then if the person did not back off, we would both run for it!!! Surely you would not want to put your dog in any danger?

I would have thought the sight of a GSD would be enough to deter a normal person.

Also, does a personal protection dog have to be registered as a dangerous dog and kept accordingly ie. wear the red and yellow collar, muzzled in public etc..

[moosmum]

I agree with most of the above,our dogs are protection breeds (but a strange mix of)and though I have had a collie who was great in his way,his reliability purely as a P.P dog would not have been sufficient.Also he had no where near the strength or substance he would have needed to do the job.As simply a family pet with protective instincts he was a great mate to have.

He reacted with great determination and courage,going straight for the throat the 1 one time he was faced with a threat to a buch of genuinly screaming and panicking kids,but thats about what what it took to get him to react.

If you had tried to train him for the job anyway,he would likely have lost his nerve tho' I did used to "play attacks" with him and he was very agile at avoiding hands and feet because of that.

If you have a dog purely as a companion dog,it should not be expected to step up,its just nice when it does.

A dog needs the confidence,nerve and the substance to back it all up.That combination would be very hard to find in breeds other than protection breeds.

Aussielover,

No,you don't want to put your dogs in danger.I would avoid trouble too.I have been in situations though where running is not an option,and have come to value a dog that will stand along side and fight with and for you,and that can be a constant companion.NOT locked away.

I think theres some interesting discussion here tho',maybe a new thread in the training section would be an idea,on what makes a good Personal Protection or security dog.The selection and raising, family oriented versus professional?

Is independence seen as a good thing? Questions and observations could help any one in this field surely.

[Jake-K9]

IMO you DON'T want a Personal Protection or Security dog to make any decisions on when to attack or defend on its own. The dog needs to be trained to only activate when the handler requests it, or on certain pre-trained cues such as the handler being knocked down. Otherwise you have a potential liability.

You also don't want a dog that thinks it is pack leader, or the dog starts to make decisions on its own. You want the dog to be pack second, and happy to step up when asked to (such as if the handler becomes incapacitated, but this must be trained for).

I can't say I know much about selection and raising of these dogs as I haven't had all that much to do with training, but I've been around them and people who have worked them for several years now.

Though at a guess you'd want to be picking a pretty bomb-proof pup with good nerves though, and then neutralise the hell out of it.

[Longcoat]

I would want my dog to bark at a potentially dangerous person, but then if the person did not back off, we would both run for it!!! Surely you would not want to put your dog in any danger?

I would have thought the sight of a GSD would be enough to deter a normal person.

Also, does a personal protection dog have to be registered as a dangerous dog and kept accordingly ie. wear the red and yellow collar, muzzled in public etc..

Many councils do classify protection trained dogs as dangerous requiring the collar, muzzle etc of course if you declare the dog is protection trained, but a properly trained dog given the high level of obedience would be difficult to prove it's formal training should questions arise. A good protection trained dog should act no differently than a well behaved pet from an onlookers perspective.

[WoofnHoof]

3 out of the 4 people involved have made appointments with trainers and not shown up to have their dogs assessed. (Some have made multiple appointments) I realise emergency and family situations can pop up but I fail to see how in one instance the person made 5 separate appointments claiming they could not attend each one on the day because of “family emergency”.

I have gone to the expense of finding independent and highly qualified dog trainers for people to get there dogs assessed by to end up with the trainers telling me to date no one has kept their original appointments.

Lilli has been patiently waiting to have her dog tested and will hopefully be booked in to have it done soon.

How frustrating for you, I can't stand it when people stuff others around it's so rude :rolleyes:

[Staranais]

Bumping this to ask... did anything ever become of this?

[Jeff Jones]

Nope, Lilli is still waiting for a trainer to complete the assessment on her dog. I quite frankly do not have the time or patience to chase up people who have not attended there designated training days / assessments.

[Staranais]

Nope, Lilli is still waiting for a trainer to complete the assessment on her dog. I quite frankly do not have the time or patience to chase up people who have not attended there designated training days / assessments.

Fair enough! Pity no one else was prepared to give it a go.

Now, if we were a little closer, and you were happy to wait 6 months for my girl to mature a little more, then we'd love to give it a bash!

[Jeff Jones]

Judging by her prefix I would have to give her top points.