Xaiver III Posted October 12, 2009 Share Posted October 12, 2009 Cheers Julie and Diablo for your help. Now I have to find a good breeder and learn how to chose a pup with the right temperment It's going to be hard work (esspecially with TEE next year) but hopefully everything goes well and I'll get a new GSD puppy at the end of next year Thanks again Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xaiver III Posted December 4, 2009 Share Posted December 4, 2009 So have the tests all been done? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moosmum Posted December 4, 2009 Share Posted December 4, 2009 (edited) Wish I had found this topic earlier! I have 4 dogs chosen for protective instincts,all have been farm raised and good with cats and other animals and are terrific family pets.two I would love to have tested. One has been in situations where she has been needed and stepped up beautifully to definitly protect (yes protect,not just react) and is NOT high drive.She has relaxed again imediately when called and generaly acts the perfect family pet and adores kids and cats.She is a strong willed dominant dog and it would be interesting to see just how far she would go as she has only ever needed to show she was more than willing to take on a threat,not carry it through. The only time she has shown she can be more in a normal family situation was when we had a visitor she was wary of for his height and green dreadlocks visiting the home.She took our word that he was welcome untill he started yelling at his kids.She just gave a soft growl and the visitor stopped yelling and just said "I've been told". Am I right in thinking its very hard for those training in P.P to find suitable dogs out side of a very few proven lines here in australia? The other has not been in a situation where she has "proven' herself,but is looking like she would enjoy the chance and is very quick to leap up barking and growling if anyone suprises her/us. We often have to say to her"Its just me"as she is very quick and alert .All will welcome visitors in a very friendly manner when we let them in the gate. My daughters male will also stop and stare,refusing to move on when my daughter walks him if anyone starts calling out obscenities or lurking,following her etc.(she is a very beautiful girl and does get that!) Great topic since I love the relationship working with these dogs entails and plan to do more with them. I will be eagerly waiting the results. the other 2 are also quite protective,but for different reasons would not pass the tests devised. ie:1 scared of gun shots. The other 2 I believe would aquit themselves very well even if they did not pass the full test. Incidentaly,we have raised 3 kids,many other animals and had lots of visitors,parties etc over the years without incident.Our dogs are well trained and only confined at night or when we are away. Though my son did bite the dog once. Edited December 6, 2009 by moosmum Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xaiver III Posted December 6, 2009 Share Posted December 6, 2009 The only time she has shown she can be more in a normal family situation was when we had a visitor she was wary of for his height and green dreadlocks visiting the home.She took our word that he was welcome untill he started yelling at his kids.She just gave a soft growl and the visitor stopped yelling and just said "I've been told". Wow your dog (or I should say dogs) seem so great!! :D May I ask what breed they are? (GSD?) Though my son did bite the dog once. LOL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moosmum Posted December 7, 2009 Share Posted December 7, 2009 The only time she has shown she can be more in a normal family situation was when we had a visitor she was wary of for his height and green dreadlocks visiting the home.She took our word that he was welcome untill he started yelling at his kids.She just gave a soft growl and the visitor stopped yelling and just said "I've been told". Wow your dog (or I should say dogs) seem so great!! May I ask what breed they are? (GSD?) Though my son did bite the dog once. LOL The proven girl is 1/4 rotty,3/4 Dobe.She is not very big as far as security dogs go.A VERY affectionate dog .Loves to sit on your lap. She was bred to my daughters big pure dobe male. Some of the pups were bigger than both and some very beautiful!The biggest was at least 32 inches at the shoulder and was raised in a daycare centre...also loves kids and cats. I kept a bitch and she is the 2nd dog I think worth testing.Just as affectionate as her mum and likes laps.thats how I chose her. All pups we have kept in contact with have shown her great instincts to protect and extra affectionate too. So they are dobe. basicaly,with 1/8th rotty and I love them. They are generaly much bigger and less extreme looking than the pure dobes ie: not the big chests out front and more substance.Not reliable as to looks or size though. We still have 1 pure dobe girl.She was the one who was supposed to breed with the male as we had such a hard time finding her and did not want to loose the qualities she had.Never would breed.Thinks shes a human and we joke thats why she would not accept "A DOG!?! " She is also very protective and a terrific family dog. We chased down a male from her lines finaly.Her old breeder who was now out of breeding due to health put us on to a mate who had a litter.He said "you might not want this lot though,the fellows used a 1/4 Rotty over his bitch" So now we have dobes that aren't quite dobes but we are VERY happy with them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jacqui835 Posted December 7, 2009 Share Posted December 7, 2009 (edited) The proven girl is 1/4 rotty,3/4 Dobe.She is not very big as far as security dogs go.A VERY affectionate dog .Loves to sit on your lap. She was bred to my daughters big pure dobe male. Some of the pups were bigger than both and some very beautiful!The biggest was at least 32 inches at the shoulder and was raised in a daycare centre...also loves kids and cats. I kept a bitch and she is the 2nd dog I think worth testing.Just as affectionate as her mum and likes laps.thats how I chose her. All pups we have kept in contact with have shown her great instincts to protect and extra affectionate too. So they are dobe. basicaly,with 1/8th rotty and I love them. They are generaly much bigger and less extreme looking than the pure dobes ie: not the big chests out front and more substance.Not reliable as to looks or size though. We still have 1 pure dobe girl.She was the one who was supposed to breed with the male as we had such a hard time finding her and did not want to loose the qualities she had.Never would breed.Thinks shes a human and we joke thats why she would not accept "A DOG!?! " She is also very protective and a terrific family dog. We chased down a male from her lines finaly.Her old breeder who was now out of breeding due to health put us on to a mate who had a litter.He said "you might not want this lot though,the fellows used a 1/4 Rotty over his bitch" So now we have dobes that aren't quite dobes but we are VERY happy with them. I would just like to add that I have one of these puppies, and have been fortunate in that my boy appears to exhibit all of these fantastic traits. To be honest though, what impressed me most was the fact that although the pup wasn't even quite 8 weeks old when I got him, he was sleeping through the night (from about 10-6:30) after just 2 days and after the first week, he has not had a single accident inside the house. He is also a lap dog, not that he fits anymore, but my god, he is the most scary sounding dog I've ever heard when he's angry. He's incredibly responsive though and we've never had any issues with telling him to calm down (but we do training every day), but usually if he has a real issue with someone, we're unsure of them ourselves. I'm not sure if he's reading that from us or determining it for himself but either way it's exactly what I wanted in a dog. He's a favourite in our neighbourhood now, and the next door neighbour's kids (whose mum is allergic to animals or fur or something) come over at least once a fortnight to play with him. In short, I hence believe it's possible to have a naturally protective dog that is still safe to have in society. Edited December 7, 2009 by jacqui835 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xaiver III Posted December 7, 2009 Share Posted December 7, 2009 (edited) In short, I hence believe it's possible to have a naturally protective dog that is still safe to have in society. Defiantly agree with you there. I just wonder what is the difference between natural instincts and trained instincts? Hopefully the tests would clarify this question. @moosmum Your dogs seem lovely, exactly like the dog I want. (I'm fairly sure my staffy/mastiff puppy is to much of a softy xD) The unfortunate part is that for the GSD's, many breeders have breed the dogs to be to "soft" and thus they have lost their protective instincts. Due to this I have been inclined to look into Schutzhund training. Edited December 7, 2009 by Xaiver III Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moosmum Posted December 7, 2009 Share Posted December 7, 2009 (edited) Hi Jacqui! Yes, we intended on keeping all the pups the full 8 weeks,but by 6 weeks they were so clearly needing more stimulus and activley trying to bond with anyone( 10 kids yelling"Pick me! Pick Me!). They NEEDED to be starting their training while they were so receptive.They had a huge play area but could not run free to chase the chickens or get trampled by horses and mum no longer feeding them.Even lots of handling couldn't keep up with their development.(edited to clarify:pups did not go at 6 weeks,they needed it tho' and those still here at 10 weeks were desperately trying to bond with anyone new.Sad to see and I think idealy,in the right placement with the right people,they should start training earlier for a P.P home) It seems to me the combination that makes a good P.P dog is very high intelligence,"loyalty" and confidence. The hard part is finding people with the same qualities towards their dog because I get upset when I hear of one thats been re-homed.Have been lucky there though,with better luck 2nd time for those few. His whole worlds been turned upside down. Once you have had that raport with a dog and appreciated it nothing else will do,but its like you have taken responsiblity for an alien intelligence. I guess you have at that. It up to you to see it has the skills to share your life and feels secure 'cos its the only life it will know. In return,he knows no one else understands him like his owners and thats worth protecting. And if I am anthropmorph-thingy it works for me. Edited December 7, 2009 by moosmum Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huski Posted December 7, 2009 Share Posted December 7, 2009 (edited) Hi Jacqui! Yes, we intended on keeping the pups 8 weeks,but by 6 weeks they were so clearly needing more stimulus and activley trying to bond with anyone( 10 kids yelling"Pick me! Pick Me!). They NEEDED to be starting their training while they were so receptive.They had a huge play area but could not run free to chase the chickens or get trampled by horses and mum no longer feeding them.Even lots of handling couldn't keep up with their development. . I thought that it was the law in NSW that pups had to be eight weeks before they could go to their new homes? Or is that just the COE for registered breeders? Edited December 7, 2009 by huski Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Casster17 Posted December 7, 2009 Share Posted December 7, 2009 Can anyone tell me if the results from Jeff's study have been posted??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nekhbet Posted December 7, 2009 Share Posted December 7, 2009 Defiantly agree with you there. I just wonder what is the difference between natural instincts and trained instincts? Hopefully the tests would clarify this question. you cannot train into a dog what it does not have. Training is simply harnessing the instincts - you cannot teach a dog with little prey or civil drive to be a security dog, neither can you train a dog with weak nerve. Well some people think you can and then dump them on my doorstep as 'F-ups' and tell me to fix it or send it to the vet. Every dog has a fight or flight instinct but that is not what you should always rely on ... the worst thing I've seen is fear aggression pushed and pushed and then the dog passed off as a patrol dog because it shits its pants and goes anything that moves. You cannot teach a person who is small, shy and nervy to be a prized fighter without some bad effects, neither can you train a dog. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moosmum Posted December 7, 2009 Share Posted December 7, 2009 Does a dog have to be a particular breed or even pure bred to do schutzhund? And where can you do it here? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted December 7, 2009 Share Posted December 7, 2009 (edited) Yes the dog has to be purebred and only some breeds can participate. Airedale Boxer Belgian Shepherd Dog (Groenendael, Laekenois, Malinois, Tervueren) Dobermann German Shepherd Dog Giant Schnauzer Rottweiler Edited December 7, 2009 by Kavik Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xaiver III Posted December 7, 2009 Share Posted December 7, 2009 you cannot train into a dog what it does not have. Training is simply harnessing the instincts - you cannot teach a dog with little prey or civil drive to be a security dog, neither can you train a dog with weak nerve. Well some people think you can and then dump them on my doorstep as 'F-ups' and tell me to fix it or send it to the vet. Every dog has a fight or flight instinct but that is not what you should always rely on ... the worst thing I've seen is fear aggression pushed and pushed and then the dog passed off as a patrol dog because it shits its pants and goes anything that moves.You cannot teach a person who is small, shy and nervy to be a prized fighter without some bad effects, neither can you train a dog. Sorry I meant "trained instincts" as to say that the dog who have been trained to harness it's instincts (PPD training etc) - not that the dog is weak nerved and then is taught how to defend. I said that the test will confirm or deny that dogs with natural instincts will do the same in certain scenarios, where it is believed that only trained PP dogs will be able to compete the test succesfully. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted December 7, 2009 Share Posted December 7, 2009 There are two organisations in Australia http://www.schutzhundaustralia.com/clubs.html http://www.sportdogaustralia.com/clubs/clubs.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xaiver III Posted December 7, 2009 Share Posted December 7, 2009 Kavik, can anybody train for Schutzhund? How does this process work? Does the owner get together with the trainer to teach the dog? Is this training similar to PP training? It is just that I have been told and what this thread deciphers is that having a train PP dog will be more reliable to defend you then a dog with natural protective instincts, so if I want a family guard dog I should look to train this dog in Personal Protection, but am uncertain to whether Schutzhund training is the recommended ;) GSD BTW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted December 7, 2009 Share Posted December 7, 2009 Schutzhund is trained at a club. It is NOT personal protection training, it is a sport with 3 phases, obedience, tracking, character assessment. You have to pass a basic obedience/temperament test (BH - traffic sure companion test) before you can do the rest. I think it is one of the most complex sports offered in Australia at the moment, as it is pretty much 3 disciplines in one sport! http://www.schutzhundaustralia.com/pdf/whatisschutzhund.pdf Personal protection is different, as you will want to work with defence and not just prey (Schutzhund works in prey drive) and you may not be as interested in the showy type of obedience desired for sport. Both require a lot of dediecation to training. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smartypaws Posted December 8, 2009 Share Posted December 8, 2009 Yes the dog has to be purebred and only some breeds can participate.Airedale Boxer Belgian Shepherd Dog (Groenendael, Laekenois, Malinois, Tervueren) Dobermann German Shepherd Dog Giant Schnauzer Rottweiler What about Black Russian Terriers? I plan for a BRT to be my next dog and am considering doing Shutzhund (among other things )......but still need to do a little more research on this sport. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted December 8, 2009 Share Posted December 8, 2009 I think Australia goes by FCI as to which breeds can compete? Not sure about Black Russian Terriers, maybe? My list may not be complete, took it from a website. As from what I have heard Dutch Shepherds are now recognised here they may be able to compete too? Maybe best to contact someone from the club. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smartypaws Posted December 8, 2009 Share Posted December 8, 2009 I think Australia goes by FCI as to which breeds can compete? Not sure about Black Russian Terriers, maybe? My list may not be complete, took it from a website. As from what I have heard Dutch Shepherds are now recognised here they may be able to compete too? Maybe best to contact someone from the club. Thanks Kavik....will do Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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