Protective But Not Aggressive Breeds

[badboyz]

When you are testing a dog for protection work - then if the dog succeeds presumably it will go on to further and more intensive training.

Can I just ask, that if any of these pet dogs prove successful, what then? I sure hope that their owners are willing to follow through with more appropriate training, knowing they have a potentially dangerous dog.

Edited September 13, 2009 by badboyz

[WoofnHoof]

How do you test whether a dog will protect it's owner if the owner is not themselves feeling threatened? I have always been under the impression that most dogs will react to the reaction of their person, if the person is showing fear and dislike to the 'attacker' then the dog is more likely to guard against it, I would think that would be a difficult thing to test as if the owner knows the person 'attacking' is only pretending they wont have the level of emotional response that might trigger the correct reaction in the dog?

[Mags]

Very interesting offer Jeff looking forward to the results.

We have had cattle dogs for many years and our current dog I am sure would do exactly what your shephard did. She is from show lines and has a very different and I must say more unstable temperament. The old working line dogs we had loved people, were good with other animals and would bark and hold ground if needed but they knew how to work stock and that was part of what they needed to work effectively as was barking on command.

I have had dogs leap to my defense before and was surprised. On one occasion I was home sick and some one knocked on the door when I answered it the man tried to push his way into the house my border collie kelpie cross (who was from working lines on both sides and a good yard dog but useless in the paddock) went straight into defensive mode got between him and me and was clearly not joking. This alerted our cattle dogs who came immediately to her aid. The man ran away and the dogs thankfully took heed of my "stay" and stayed with me. I called the police who attended but could not find him, told me I was lucky to have the dogs who were all trying to bludge hugs from the nice police men and we got security screens on all the windows and doors at the front of the house. It would never have occurred to me that this dog would have protected me the way she did - she was a cuddly teddy bear who loved everyone and every animal she ever met. One of the police originally though it had been one of the cattle dogs that came to my aid but when I told him it was our fluffy bear he told the cattle dogs they were useless which they took as a compliment wagged harder and got more pats from the nice police men.

I would love to be able to know a certain breed would produce dogs that would do what these dogs did - I was just very lucky and will be forever grateful for my wonderful dogs protection. After reading this thread and looking back IMO my dogs protected me because the situation we were in was very similar to a working situation and they got between me and danger as they would have in the yards if cattle or a ram had tried to come through me. They would no more have run off after the man than they would have chased a cow or a sheep.

Jo

Edited September 13, 2009 by Mags

[Monah]

Fantastic Jeff, and great posts, very intelligent and experienced. I wish I had my old cattle dog to put on your list. I would have found it fascinating to see how far she would go if allowed. The BC I often have is with my daughter so I've lucked out there too, he is extremely protective, almost too much.

Huski, I completely understand where you posts are coming from and agree. Dogs must not 'make their own mind up' on how to act and when. What a disaster that would be! ;)

A funny thing used to happen with my ACD. Because of her age and health we only walked her intermittantly, every second or third day. But, on walking the other two, all the dogs in the neighbourhood would bark on going past, a couple would 'rush' out to the end of the driveways etc.

whenever we walked with Pindi with us, there was not a peep out of any dogs or any rushing!!! from any dogs, they just watched us go by. Can anyone enlighten me on this? Why etc???

We would crack up laughing, she had 'presence' or 'hand' or whatever you want to call it and never had to do a thing, just look. She was very protective of children, and also me and I had to be on guard the whole time if we had tradesmen etc. around the place. Thankfully we never had an incident and she was incredibly obedient.

If only my gundogs were as obedient By the way, although the viz can look terrifying and bark, I've no doubt at all that she would run run run away if confronted!! as for the spin, she would be behind me ;) but I've lived alone a lot, out in the middle of nowhere when OH has been away for long intervals, and am very capable of taking care of myself and children AND pets. And I'm well trained :D

[Monah]

Mags, wow, very interesting!! both my cattle dog and BC are from working lines too. Love all these different stories

[sandii]

Hi everyone,

I live in a suburban area although we walk to the river and through parks every day so my GSD has lots and lots of exercise (both on and off-leash)

I have had two very bad incidents in the past and that was a factor in choosing a GSD as my breed. have always felt safe with my GSD as I believed that most people would choose not to attach someone with a scarey looking dog. He also has a huge, deep bark that would deter most (if not all) would be burglars.

Anyway, last week there was an incident when a mentally disturbed man attacked me verbally and then attempted to punch me. I ducked to avoid hima nd let go of my GSD's leash. My 4 year old GSD promply bolted and left me to try and avoid this guy.

I love my dog as he is and do NOT want him attack-trained etc BUT I did feel that a natural protective instinct would kick in if he believed I was in actual danger.

Are there any breeds of dogs that are naturally protective but not aggressive eg like a Maremma? I have owned a Maremma before andc loved that I wasn't afraid theyw ould attack someone but that they would do what it took to protect me. Unfortunately living in such a suburban area as I do I doubt that a Maremma would be happy there.

Any other suggestions please?

how do u know the man was mentally disturbed????

[Kavik]

Generous offer Jeff - Can't wait to hear the results

[Guest rhapsodical78]

And yet you seem intent of telling everyone the majority of dogs will turn tail in a threatening situation. You're in just as much position to give an accurate prediction as Steve.

I dare say after years of training various dogs for law enforcement – personal protection and schutzhund I am in a better position than you or anyone else commenting in this thread to give an accurate prediction on dog behaviour and training / personal protection dogs.

Ok, Steve breeds Maremmas, so why can't she give an indication of the breed's likelihood to protect? If you can give predictions regarding your area of expertise, then I'm sure she can as well.

What she does want is a dog who is MORE LIKELY to take action - this does not mean she is going to take no precautions in dangerous situations and RELY on her dog for protection, it just means that there is the POTENTIAL for protection as an added security measure.

What is the point on having a dog that might take action in a dangerous situation? If having nfi of what or how your dog will react when you are placed in a dangerous situation is your goal by all means walk around with a dog in the false reality hoping / feeling / relying / that your dog may protect you.

Because people who want pet dogs don't necessarily prioritise a dog's protective qualities - they might, however, want the best chance of acquiring a dog who will step up to the plate without having to engage in protection work. No one is relying on anything here, nor do they want to, I think that has been made clear.

For the record my Kelpie, a dog not bred for protection, is a friendly, outgoing, confident dog who never bit anyone until the night an intruder came through the window. He attacked the intruder. I think there are far more dogs who would step up to the plate than you think.

Some dogs may step up to the plate initially but when the game becomes serious all of a sudden the dog will shutdown. Having a dog that does half the job in this situation is no good.

When people talk about protection I don't think they're invisioning the dog fighting a threatening individual to the death. Most of the time a show of teeth or single bite will deter an attacker. Attackers rarely behave in the manner in which decoys do - I'd say the majority of them would flee the situation when confronted or attacked by a dog.

A REAL and not FABRICATED situation with adrenaline, fear, anger, real harm, real threat is different to a guy in a suit waving a batton.

I never said training was the be all and end all. But training helps you get to the desired goal, testing the dog under realistic scenarios. You cannot say an untrained protection dog is going to have the same capability as a trained protection dog. It is up to you and the decoy to make it feel as real as possible so the dog believes it is the real thing.

No one is saying an untrained dog would rival a trained dog (although I would say that certain breeds such as the Caucasian and Central Asian Ovcharkas probably would). As stated above, not everyone is interested in protection training, nor should they be - they just want the best chance of obtaining a dog who might do the job (without training) and some breeds have a greater propensity in this area than others.

It is the same as running a mock Search and Rescue exercise / obedience trial / tracking trial these are all “FABRICATED” events but they are done to assist in the training and development of the dog and handler. These events are done as realistic as possible to test the dog under similar conditions that they will face in real life situations.

I really don't think that's an accurate comparison. When a dog is tracking for trial or tracking to locate a missing person it's all the same to the dog - you don't have to simulate emotions and bodily chemicals as you would have to do to get an accurate gauge of the average dog's protective instinct.

If any member of DOL has one of these amazing dogs that they believe will “step up to the plate” and protect you when required feel free to contact me and I will get an independent and experienced protection dog trainer to give an accurate assessment of your dog and its capability through various scenarios. I will pay for 3 members of DOL who contact me to get this done and we will get the trainers assessment of your dog posted on DOL...obviously any dog with previous protection training is excluded.

The only conditions are, I choose the dog trainer - and you are responsible for transporting the dog to the trainers location(if required) And I may decide to write / create the scenarios your dog gets tested under. Note:Due to work commitments this offer is only valid for one week and expires on the 20th of September 2009.

If you want to be considered pm me your location your dogs breed, sex and age and I will contact a suitable trainer about an assessment date and time and get back to you.

Feel free to "step up to the plate" . Just don't be surprised if your dog "shutsdown".

I would be interested to know what the test would involve, as if the dog is weak of nerve I believe you would risk damaging the dog. One member has already admitted her dog would not be up to the task and you still seem content to go ahead with it. Don't you think that's a bit irresponsible?

[Jeff Jones]

rhapsodical78 as has been mentioned before, the testing will not be done by me...the testing will be done by independent and experienced dog trainers, they will obviously be evaluating your dog before any scenarios / testing takes place. I am not holding a gun to any ones head and forcing them to take there dog to these trainers free of charge for an assessment...if you do not think your dog can handle the test you did not have to pm me and you do not have to take your dog along to the trainer.

I have not agreed to test any dog that someone has mentioned is weak nerved, there dog is not taking part in the test...it is a voluntary exercise the people involved can pull out at any time, they will not be the ones out of pocket, I will. If the trainers believe the dogs are not suitable to be tested...then they will not be...

I am not going to continue to argue with you about something you have zero experience in. The results of the tests will be posted after all of them have been completed including what scenarios were involved.

I will respond to the other questions in this thread when I have more time as I have to head off to work shortly.

[BJean]

Yes Akayla, as long as you can get your dog to the location of a trainer in Sydney NSW for an assessment? pm me if you are willing your dogs breed sex and age.

Cheers

one position down 2 to go.

okay i have one

i was actually going to get the dog worked with by k9force

bcz there are some things i needed to knwo about him wrt reactivity and other people

cool!

[Aramiss]

I just brought my gsd pup home

We were recently (around a year ago now) home invaded, our dogs, both small/toy breeds, were kicked, and deeply shaken by the experience, until that time they had never been hurt, or threatened in any way, and it did trouble them deeply. It was during my first week of work (I had been a house wife till then), and we lost all our small valuables, just the stuff thats easy to carry. After that I decided that I really wanted to fulfill a life time wish and have a large dog. Not to hurt or injure a robber, but just as a visual deterrent, I really believe that if we had already had Morgan at that time, and he was fully grown, that a deep bark would have saved us a lot of money, and my dogs a lot of trauma.

I had a few breeds that I was really interested in, but I kept coming back to gsd's, ever since I was a little girl I wanted to own one, but mum always preferred little dogs, so that was that. I did a lot of research, made sure I could financially afford one, that one was right for my home and family, and that I was personally up to the challenge of owning and training one. After weighing the options, and quitting smoking I decided the time was right to add a new dog to my family.

I feel as a responsible dog owner that it is my duty to protect my dogs, and to make sure they know I'm in charge, and the one making the decisions. I would never want any of my dogs to endanger themselves by acting aggressively, and stepping in harms way when sometimes the best thing to do is cut and run.

I know your a bit disappointed atm, I'm sure your dog loves you no matter what, but I know I would rather be a little disappointed then face my dog being destroyed for seriously harming someone.

Heres a pic to lighten the mood with puppy love, if it decides to work properly :0)

[Shakti]

Hi Fitz Kettle and the totally gorgeous Morgan,

Yes I didn't ever want to run the risk of my dog injuring someone but just like you, I assumed the dog would act as a deterrent at least - ah well, good thing he trusts me to keep him safe and is a well-behaved dog! After all, every day I am his leader and need him to trust me to make decisions ......and hopefully never again will we be in the situation we were in the other day so....

All's well! and yes puppy pics can't help but lift anyone's spirits!

Edited September 13, 2009 by Brooke

[fainty_girl]

I have had dogs leap to my defense before and was surprised. On one occasion I was home sick and some one knocked on the door when I answered it the man tried to push his way into the house my border collie kelpie cross (who was from working lines on both sides and a good yard dog but useless in the paddock) went straight into defensive mode got between him and me and was clearly not joking. This alerted our cattle dogs who came immediately to her aid. The man ran away and the dogs thankfully took heed of my "stay" and stayed with me. I called the police who attended but could not find him, told me I was lucky to have the dogs who were all trying to bludge hugs from the nice police men and we got security screens on all the windows and doors at the front of the house. It would never have occurred to me that this dog would have protected me the way she did - she was a cuddly teddy bear who loved everyone and every animal she ever met. One of the police originally though it had been one of the cattle dogs that came to my aid but when I told him it was our fluffy bear he told the cattle dogs they were useless which they took as a compliment wagged harder and got more pats from the nice police men.

Gosh Mags, that's awful! Lucky your dogs were there to scare the creep away!

-----

It is interesting reading how your dogs and others responded in these sorts of situations. Just yesterday when I was at a park playing fetch with Tilly, this man stood there on the street behind my car (i'd say about 30 meters away) and was staring at me. He was carrying two of those "green" shopping bags and just stood there really still staring at me for about a minute or two. Tilly ran straight in his direction and I called her back and she just ran in a loop around a big garden bed that was near the man, and came straight back to me. She didn't charge at him and there was no aggression, but she doesn't normally pay anywhere near that much attention to a stranger when she is playing off the lead, so it was out of character for her.

Something about the man did give me the creeps though, or maybe I just watch too much of the crime channel on cable.

He didn't stand there for any longer after Tilly ran past him though!

[Rex]

I have had another reply from someone wanting there dog tested but it is of a breed of dog that has already been selected. I would prefer to test a completely different breed of dog rather than sticking with dogs that are normally used for protection / service work to have some variety with the testing process. Numerous breeds of dogs have been mentioned in this thread such as Labradors - Blue Heelers - Kelpies who people believe have previously acted in protection of there owner. Scenarios where protection of the handler will be played out during the testing process, you will get a proper evaluation as to whether your dog is actually acting in protection of you.

What is the purpose of testing breeds that are essentially not used in protection work. Wouldn't the testing of these breeds have been done before, evaluated as unsuitable and be the reason they are not used???.

Edited September 13, 2009 by Rex

[huski]

I have had another reply from someone wanting there dog tested but it is of a breed of dog that has already been selected. I would prefer to test a completely different breed of dog rather than sticking with dogs that are normally used for protection / service work to have some variety with the testing process. Numerous breeds of dogs have been mentioned in this thread such as Labradors - Blue Heelers - Kelpies who people believe have previously acted in protection of there owner. Scenarios where protection of the handler will be played out during the testing process, you will get a proper evaluation as to whether your dog is actually acting in protection of you.

What is the purpose of testing breeds that are essentially not used in protection work. Wouldn't the testing of these breeds have been done before, evaluated as unsuitable and be the reason they are not used???.

Because, as Jeff said, numerous breeds like Labs/Blue heelers/kelpies have been mentioned in this thread as capable of acting in protection of their owner. So, he wants to find one of these breeds to assess to see if that really is the case.

[Rex]

Hi Fitz Kettle and the totally gorgeous Morgan,

Yes I didn't ever want to run the risk of my dog injuring someone but just like you, I assumed the dog would act as a deterrent at least - ah well, good thing he trusts me to keep him safe and is a well-behaved dog! After all, every day I am his leader and need him to trust me to make decisions ......and hopefully never again will we be in the situation we were in the other day so....

All's well! and yes puppy pics can't help but lift anyone's spirits!

Brooke just out of interest, how does your GSD act in the presence of strangers generally, does he fire up at them, allow strangers to pat him, is he generally cranky with stangers or friendly. Off lead if a stanger appeared in a park, would he chase them and bail them up barking given the opportunity and does he fire up at strange dogs???.

[Rex]

I have had another reply from someone wanting there dog tested but it is of a breed of dog that has already been selected. I would prefer to test a completely different breed of dog rather than sticking with dogs that are normally used for protection / service work to have some variety with the testing process. Numerous breeds of dogs have been mentioned in this thread such as Labradors - Blue Heelers - Kelpies who people believe have previously acted in protection of there owner. Scenarios where protection of the handler will be played out during the testing process, you will get a proper evaluation as to whether your dog is actually acting in protection of you.

What is the purpose of testing breeds that are essentially not used in protection work. Wouldn't the testing of these breeds have been done before, evaluated as unsuitable and be the reason they are not used???.

Because, as Jeff said, numerous breeds like Labs/Blue heelers/kelpies have been mentioned in this thread as capable of acting in protection of their owner. So, he wants to find one of these breeds to assess to see if that really is the case.

Jeff should already know given his experience what breeds work and what don't. I am thinking out loud here, but we don't need silly results from this test for example testing a weak nerved Rottweiler against a feisty Cattle Dog then claiming a Cattle Dog to be a better protector when we all know in reality that a hard line Rotty would eat the most feirce of Cattle Dogs for breakfast??

Same applies with some small breeds, totally driven by aggression massive protection instinct except that a 6 year old kid could nail one with a pair of Adidas runners. Hardly a useful protection dog but has the correct drives???

Edited September 13, 2009 by Rex

[Shakti]

Hi Rex,

He is mostly disinterested. He will stand still and allow himself to be stroked or patted if I am next to him but otherwise he is calm and aloof - certainly does not seek attention but would no more fire up than fly to the moon. If he is with another dog who is aggressive then he will fire up but on his own, absolutely not.

He is the same with other dogs - prefers to ignore them - if they are wildly submissive ie puppies licking at his mouth and lying on tehir backs he will stand their attention for a while but basically he prefers to remain aloof. Having said that, a dog that is at all dominant who tries to put their chin on his back for example he will fire up at.

[Shakti]

I didnt read the test as being a definitive breed survey! I saw it more that people who were curious as to whether their individual dog would protect them in a dangerous situation, would have the opportunity in a carefully controlled environment, with an extremely experienced trainer/handler present to put the question to the test!

[Guest rhapsodical78]

rhapsodical78 as has been mentioned before, the testing will not be done by me...the testing will be done by independent and experienced dog trainers, they will obviously be evaluating your dog before any scenarios / testing takes place. I am not holding a gun to any ones head and forcing them to take there dog to these trainers free of charge for an assessment...if you do not think your dog can handle the test you did not have to pm me and you do not have to take your dog along to the trainer.

I have not agreed to test any dog that someone has mentioned is weak nerved, there dog is not taking part in the test...it is a voluntary exercise the people involved can pull out at any time, they will not be the ones out of pocket, I will. If the trainers believe the dogs are not suitable to be tested...then they will not be...

I am not going to continue to argue with you about something you have zero experience in. The results of the tests will be posted after all of them have been completed including what scenarios were involved.

I will respond to the other questions in this thread when I have more time as I have to head off to work shortly.

I'm not going to take my dog along because I do not live in Sydney.

I'm also not going to take my dog along because:

(a) You refuse to specify what the tests involve.

(b) I do not want to ruin my dog.

I would implore anyone who doesn't want to risk ruining their dog to also decline.

Further, a random sample of three won't produce results that are statistically significant so it's not going to prove anything, but hey, go ahead and knock yourself out at the potential expense of others.