Rex Posted September 12, 2009 Share Posted September 12, 2009 Forget full blown personal protection dogs which she made clear that she didn't want, what she wanted was a dog that would fire up, look the business and stay by her side during the ordeal, not turn tail and run. My GSD in the same situation by natural instinct based purely upon his disposition towards strangers would have stopped the guy in his tracks simply due to him getting up on his back legs at the end of the leash barking furiously with his teeth hanging out. The guy wouldn't have the anatomy to proceed with an attack, especially if telling the guy to back off as the dog is attack trained and you will release him if necessary. It would take a "very brave" person not to retreat in those circumstances. But, as you discovered Rex, without a fair amount of training dogs like yours can become dangerous and out of control. How can a dog running purely on instinct interpret each 'dangerous' situation appropriately? Don't you understand the danger in letting the dog decide for itself when is the appropriate time to aggress and when isn't? Huski, are you saying any dog with a guarding instinct is a dangerous dog unless trained in protection? No, I'm saying that without a fair amount of training they can become dangerous and out of control - just like Rex's dog did. Most high drive working line dogs aren't ideal for the average pet owner, and anyone who wants to own one needs to be prepared to put in a lot more training and work into the dog than you would a breed from "weaker" lines, or the dog can become bored, out of control, and yes - dangerous. Hey, I will be absolutely honest to say that my GSD by the time he was 14 months old was an absolute bugger of a thing giving the impression that he wanted to chase and bite everyone. My wife refused to walk him after pulling her off her feet twice trying to bail up other dog walkers, he was a total nightmare. If it wasn't for the fact with us, he was the most gentle, affectionate and loving dog we have owned in 30 years, Rainbow Bridge would have been another option. He was becoming dangerous and a legal liability and no pleasure to be with him in a public place. We had no idea how to handle and train a dog like that, not a clue after 30 years of Golden Retrievers made matters far worse. I am confident now that raising another hard line GSD, administering the correct training required would make things a whole lot easier a second time around from what we have learned and experienced. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rex Posted September 12, 2009 Share Posted September 12, 2009 How can a dog running purely on instinct interpret each 'dangerous' situation appropriately? Don't you understand the danger in letting the dog decide for itself when is the appropriate time to aggress and when isn't? This is what I'm questioning, Huski. If my dog and other dogs (Jed's dogs for example) can do it with no problems, so can other dogs. What Huski is saying is absolutely correct from my experiences. My GSD could only interpret that "strangers" were a threat be it a knife weilding bandit or a 4 year old child, no difference, he wanted to "get em" regardless which was the problem. Training is the "only" way I believe that a dog can interpret situations. A generally friendly dog that barks and perhaps snaps at situation dangerous to it's owner pushed harder untrained will flee not fight at the crunch. I know my GSD will fight a stranger and protect untrained, but I wouldn't guarantee he would protect me for real if a mutual friend of mine and the dog's ended up in a scrap together as his instincts to protect are focused upon strangers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wazzat Xolo Posted September 12, 2009 Share Posted September 12, 2009 I personally would not say that any 1 PARTICULAR dog breed itself is protective and or non aggressive, same as any 1 dog breed is not always sweet natured and cuddly. This is too broad a question and too many variables in the real world, get some chem agent or personal protection . J So leaving aside questions of whether or not I was *ridiculous* thanks Nekhebet for that! does anyone else have any knowledge of dog breeds they would consider to be protective and not aggressive?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alpha bet Posted September 12, 2009 Share Posted September 12, 2009 Brooke Enjoy your dogs for what they are..... accept them for what they are.... You cannot rely on any dog to protect you and you certainly don't sound like a suitable candidate for an attack trained dog and the restrictions that would come with that. You have received many suggestions here for breeds but in all honesty can you really feel ready to take on any of these and the problems that could entail. I hope that you don't have any further problems however if you really have concerns then it would make sense to consider looking into personal defense classes where you can build the confidence to look after yourself no matter where you go.... Best of luck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted September 12, 2009 Share Posted September 12, 2009 Is it mainly when out walking the dogs that you feel you may run into problems? What will happen when you walk your other dogs or do you plan to walk them all together? From Rex's description of his dog it sounds like a serious dog that does not like strangers at all - is that really the kind of dog you would want? I wouldn't as it would require a good deal of vigilence on every walk in case a person comes close - worse than a dog which is dog aggressive (I have one of those - not fun)as you can often avoid other dogs, and aggression towards people is much more serious. Have you handled a dog that fires up at people at all? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
all that glitters Posted September 12, 2009 Share Posted September 12, 2009 I take hubby to protect me on walks But I really try to minimize coming into a situation like that by walking with someone else, walking in daylight as much as possible, and avoiding parks in the dark etc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Jones Posted September 13, 2009 Share Posted September 13, 2009 (edited) And yet you seem intent of telling everyone the majority of dogs will turn tail in a threatening situation. You're in just as much position to give an accurate prediction as Steve. I dare say after years of training various dogs for law enforcement – personal protection and schutzhund I am in a better position than you or anyone else commenting in this thread to give an accurate prediction on dog behaviour and training / personal protection dogs. What she does want is a dog who is MORE LIKELY to take action - this does not mean she is going to take no precautions in dangerous situations and RELY on her dog for protection, it just means that there is the POTENTIAL for protection as an added security measure. What is the point on having a dog that might take action in a dangerous situation? If having nfi of what or how your dog will react when you are placed in a dangerous situation is your goal by all means walk around with a dog in the false reality hoping / feeling / relying / that your dog may protect you. For the record my Kelpie, a dog not bred for protection, is a friendly, outgoing, confident dog who never bit anyone until the night an intruder came through the window. He attacked the intruder. I think there are far more dogs who would step up to the plate than you think. Some dogs may step up to the plate initially but when the game becomes serious all of a sudden the dog will shutdown. Having a dog that does half the job in this situation is no good. A REAL and not FABRICATED situation with adrenaline, fear, anger, real harm, real threat is different to a guy in a suit waving a batton. I never said training was the be all and end all. But training helps you get to the desired goal, testing the dog under realistic scenarios. You cannot say an untrained protection dog is going to have the same capability as a trained protection dog. It is up to you and the decoy to make it feel as real as possible so the dog believes it is the real thing. It is the same as running a mock Search and Rescue exercise / obedience trial / tracking trial these are all “FABRICATED” events but they are done to assist in the training and development of the dog and handler. These events are done as realistic as possible to test the dog under similar conditions that they will face in real life situations. If any member of DOL has one of these amazing dogs that they believe will “step up to the plate” and protect you when required feel free to contact me and I will get an independent and experienced protection dog trainer to give an accurate assessment of your dog and its capability through various scenarios. I will pay for 3 members of DOL who contact me to get this done and we will get the trainers assessment of your dog posted on DOL...obviously any dog with previous protection training is excluded. The only conditions are, I choose the dog trainer - and you are responsible for transporting the dog to the trainers location(if required) And I may decide to write / create the scenarios your dog gets tested under. Note:Due to work commitments this offer is only valid for one week and expires on the 20th of September 2009. If you want to be considered pm me your location your dogs breed, sex and age and I will contact a suitable trainer about an assessment date and time and get back to you. Feel free to "step up to the plate" . Just don't be surprised if your dog "shutsdown". Edited September 13, 2009 by Jeff Jones Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tonymc Posted September 13, 2009 Share Posted September 13, 2009 good realistic post Jeff!!!!Well written. Tony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Akayla Posted September 13, 2009 Share Posted September 13, 2009 Although I know there are people out there that may know more than you - cause there is always a bigger fish! I agree that most dogs would not pass a test. It takes a LONG time to specifically train a dog to be "reliable". Can I volunteer even knowing that my bitch most likely wont pass all tests??? Id just love to do it and see it done What a learning experience that would be!!! Rex sounds like he has a dog that may also show some nerve? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Jones Posted September 13, 2009 Share Posted September 13, 2009 good realistic post Jeff!!!!Well written. Tony Thanks Tony, now the fun begins. Note: your dogs will be tested in various scenarios but the most important testing will relate to whether your dog is actually protecting you or not Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tonymc Posted September 13, 2009 Share Posted September 13, 2009 Akayla, it would be a great experience as one would learn a lot from Jeff. Tony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Jones Posted September 13, 2009 Share Posted September 13, 2009 Yes Akayla, as long as you can get your dog to the location of a trainer in Sydney NSW for an assessment? pm me if you are willing your dogs breed sex and age. Cheers one position down 2 to go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Akayla Posted September 13, 2009 Share Posted September 13, 2009 (edited) Well she has done so in a real situation in the past but as you said - how far will they go, will they protect you no matter what? Most likely not Im guessing (with Lakota) since stats are like 4% or something LOL. I do have a bitch that would but shes an ex RAAF dog + shes 10 so a bit old for that sort of thing Still she is rather protective of me and bubs so Id be interested to see how far she makes it ETA: PM'd :D Edited September 13, 2009 by Akayla Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Jones Posted September 13, 2009 Share Posted September 13, 2009 (edited) Received pm Akayla is the first one on the list. Note if you do not want your name mentioned as one of the people listed down as having your dog tested pm me. I will still post your dogs results including breed sex and age. Edited September 13, 2009 by Jeff Jones Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badboyz Posted September 13, 2009 Share Posted September 13, 2009 (edited) What an interesting suggestion Jeff, but is it a good idea to put a pet into this sort of stressful situation. You seem to think it would be amusing. The thing is, though I believe my dog would act in a defensive way and have seen him do so (I've no idea if he would sustain it if pushed further as I step in and "shut him down" myself) it is not something I by any means would want to encourage. If he was successful in stepping up to the challenge - then wouldn't I have something much more to worry about. I train him and he is very obedient to me and respects me as being in charge. I discourage all protective behaviour and encourage all friendly behaviour. I can only believe that by pushing a PET dog to the extreme could set a precedant and behaviour I am not qualified to handle. Either it could diminish the confidence and defensive action he already has, or give him more confidence if he is successful and make it more difficult for me to control him. I'm not at all sure this offer is either a good or amusing. I know you are very qualified, and the dogs you work with need to be pushed to test them - but I don't think the average pet should be put in this position willingly or lightly. Edited September 13, 2009 by badboyz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Jones Posted September 13, 2009 Share Posted September 13, 2009 The testing will be done by an independent and experienced protection dog trainer. The same / similar tests are conducted by many of the state police / armed forces and protection dog trainers as to the suitability and capability of the dogs before training is commenced. If you do not think your dog is capable of being tested...do not pm me, the challenge was put down so people get an idea of whether there dog is actually protecting them and whether it has the ability to do so. Your dogs will be pushed and evaluated during the testing as they would be if a similar situation was to occur on the street. You will be in consultation with an experienced trainer during the exercise and can raise any concerns you have with them. I will not be the person doing the testing. If you do not want your dog tested and you do not believe it is of the right temperament to be tested...do not get it tested... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tonymc Posted September 13, 2009 Share Posted September 13, 2009 The average pet owner would learn alot from this type of session.The awareness and knowledge the pet owner gained would not only give them a great insight into this aspect of the dog world, but also enrich the relationship between pet owner and pet. Jeff is doing this to raise awareness and educate, not for any form of amusement. Jeff has the experience to know how far he could go with each individual dog, before bringing on so called stress. Tony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Jones Posted September 13, 2009 Share Posted September 13, 2009 I have another person down they wish to remain anonymous. So far we will be testing two separate breeds of dog that belong to the the herding / working dog categories. It would be good if we could get a completely different breed of dog for some variety. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shakti Posted September 13, 2009 Author Share Posted September 13, 2009 Jeff I think that is an incredible offer and it would be very interesting! I think it is fair to say that there are probably many people (like I WAS) who believe that their dogs will protect them and to actually have that tested BEFORE a real-life situation occus could be very very educational! I wish I could have had the opportunity to see how Ben would do in this controlled type of situation with an experienced trainer both for my own education and also for the knowledfge gained re assessing dogs. Thanks everyone for your wisdom, advice and sharing. I am considering my options for the future but my GSD is much loved and will continue to be my beloved obedient pet dog! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Jones Posted September 13, 2009 Share Posted September 13, 2009 I have had another reply from someone wanting there dog tested but it is of a breed of dog that has already been selected. I would prefer to test a completely different breed of dog rather than sticking with dogs that are normally used for protection / service work to have some variety with the testing process. Numerous breeds of dogs have been mentioned in this thread such as Labradors - Blue Heelers - Kelpies who people believe have previously acted in protection of there owner. Scenarios where protection of the handler will be played out during the testing process, you will get a proper evaluation as to whether your dog is actually acting in protection of you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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