Protective But Not Aggressive Breeds

[Jeff Jones]

The Maremma would be happy there as long as you lived with it as part of the family and didnt leave it on its own.

Ive placed Maremmas as pets where they have been in small areas.

Steve, what do you think is the likelihood of a Maremma protecting its owner if the situation required it?

How anyone would be able to give an accurate answer to this question is beyond me. There are too many variables it is not something you can give a blanket answer to.

Rather than having someone say “I think” the dog will protect, you need them to say “I know” how the dog will react, you can only get this knowledge through training and working your dog.

There are several experienced and professional protection dog trainers on this forum alone who will be able to give you an accurate assessment from someone who is not looking at your dog through rose coloured glasses. Contact people on the forum such as Nekhbet – K9 Force – Herr Rottweiler or Brad Griggs. These are people who train dogs in protection roles on a regular occurrence for people who have had to rely on their dog in various situations and environments. They do not simply tell people to buy a certain breed of dog hoping the dog is able to distinguish between different threats and act accordingly with a controlled and adequate response.

Even with the best bred working dog and regardless of breed a good decoy manipulates the dog slowly to work in and show different forms of aggression at the correct time and in the correct amounts in many different environments. This is done because if too much pressure is applied and in the wrong amounts you will “shutdown” the dog. People who think there dog will protect them in any and every situation that may occur will only be setting their dogs up to fail, the environmental and situational pressure will become too much for you and your dog too handle and you will both “shutdown”.

Edited September 12, 2009 by Jeff Jones

[Shakti]

This has gotten more than a little off-topic from my original post.

Just to clarify - As I stated in my first post I do NOT want my GSD protection trained. I was not RELYING on my pet dog (who is Obedience trained AND NOT trained for personal protection) to protect me!

I asked the knowledgeable members of this community to suggest breeds of dogs that they felt could be protective but not aggressive such as Maremmas who I believe protect their flock but do not initiate attacks.

The fact that my Cocker Spaniel has issues with strange dogs approaching her is totally irrelevant.

I am hoping that Steve answers the question posted in this thread about Maremmas and am very grateful to Lilli who actually answered my original question with the Central Asian.

So leaving aside questions of whether or not I was *ridiculous* thanks Nekhebet for that! does anyone else have any knowledge of dog breeds they would consider to be protective and not aggressive??

Also thanks to those who posted saying that they have owned dogs (both purebred and crossbred) who did display a protective instinct - I did feel that this was a probable response in my GSD and I was mistaken but it DOES happen!

[KitKat]

Protective and not aggressive...kinda depends - much depends on the personality of the breed, personality of the individual dog and you. I personally believe nature vs nuture does play a part - perhaps more with some breeds then others eg i would expect more of a base protective instinct from a CAS then a GSD etc

[Shakti]

Thanks KitKat - this is the kind of post that helps me learn more about the dog breeds and also to understand nature vs nature as it relates to so-called instinctual behaviour

[Dogsfevr]

The fact that my Cocker Spaniel has issues with strange dogs approaching her is totally irrelevant.

Not really,you have 2 dogs at present that seem to have issues yet want to add a third that will require more skill .

[Shakti]

My GSD does not have issues He just didnt react in a particular situation the way that I had *assumed* he would!!!

My Cocker Spaniel has ONE issue with being fearful of new dogs which I sought help and advice with.

I have not made any decision at all about getting another dog (now or in the future) and was just looking for some information.

[Rex]

There is a bit too much "rocket science" in dog behaviour etc etc being thrashed around in this thread. Having a re-read of the OP question, she has a GSD that did a runner when she needed his presence to assist her from what could have been a voilent assault causing her bodily injury. She has a guardian breed dog that didn't do his job, fair question.

Forget full blown personal protection dogs which she made clear that she didn't want, what she wanted was a dog that would fire up, look the business and stay by her side during the ordeal, not turn tail and run. My GSD in the same situation by natural instinct based purely upon his disposition towards strangers would have stopped the guy in his tracks simply due to him getting up on his back legs at the end of the leash barking furiously with his teeth hanging out. The guy wouldn't have the anatomy to proceed with an attack, especially if telling the guy to back off as the dog is attack trained and you will release him if necessary. It would take a "very brave" person not to retreat in those circumstances.

All I see that is required is an individual dog with a bit of drive and wariness of strangers to satisfy the OP's requirements.

[Shakti]

Dear Rex - yes!! PRECISELY!!! Your dog sounds like exactly what I needed and what I had sub-consciously assumed I had!!!

[KitKat]

Rex - but that is on top of the two dogs she already has - i think she could actually work with the GSD she already has. Build confidence, speak/snarl/stir up on command, 'watch' etc and don't let go of the lead - she doesn't want the dog to self decide to maul someone who bumps into her on the footpath, but one that will perhaps stand with her and at least offer a visual deterance - even if just by perception.

Neither of my dogs would even lift a tail to defend my OH - but they will both stand with me as required and have done so previously.

ETA - no..perhaps i was wrong?

Edited September 12, 2009 by KitKat

[Guest rhapsodical78]

The Maremma would be happy there as long as you lived with it as part of the family and didnt leave it on its own.

Ive placed Maremmas as pets where they have been in small areas.

Steve, what do you think is the likelihood of a Maremma protecting its owner if the situation required it?

How anyone would be able to give an accurate answer to this question is beyond me. There are too many variables it is not something you can give a blanket answer to.

Rather than having someone say “I think” the dog will protect, you need them to say “I know” how the dog will react, you can only get this knowledge through training and working your dog.

There are several experienced and professional protection dog trainers on this forum alone who will be able to give you an accurate assessment from someone who is not looking at your dog through rose coloured glasses. Contact people on the forum such as Nekhbet – K9 Force – Herr Rottweiler or Brad Griggs. These are people who train dogs in protection roles on a regular occurrence for people who have had to rely on their dog in various situations and environments. They do not simply tell people to buy a certain breed of dog hoping the dog is able to distinguish between different threats and act accordingly with a controlled and adequate response.

Even with the best bred working dog and regardless of breed a good decoy manipulates the dog slowly to work in and show different forms of aggression at the correct time and in the correct amounts in many different environments. This is done because if too much pressure is applied and in the wrong amounts you will “shutdown” the dog. People who think there dog will protect them in any and every situation that may occur will only be setting their dogs up to fail, the environmental and situational pressure will become too much for you and your dog too handle and you will both “shutdown”.

And yet you seem intent of telling everyone the majority of dogs will turn tail in a threatening situation. You're in just as much position to give an accurate prediction as Steve.

You people are obsessed with certainties. Most people here do not want a dog purely for the purpose of protection, and certainly the OP has made it clear that she doesn't.

What she does want is a dog who is MORE LIKELY to take action - this does not mean she is going to take no precautions in dangerous situations and RELY on her dog for protection, it just means that there is the POTENTIAL for protection as an added security measure.

So with all this in mind, I am advising her of some breeds who were specifically bred for the purpose. This heightens the LIKELIHOOD (note: not certainty) that the dog will be protective.

For the record my Kelpie, a dog not bred for protection, is a friendly, outgoing, confident dog who never bit anyone until the night an intruder came through the window. He attacked the intruder.

I think there are far more dogs who would step up to the plate than you think. A REAL and not FABRICATED situation with adrenaline, fear, anger, real harm, real threat is different to a guy in a suit waving a batton.

[huski]

Forget full blown personal protection dogs which she made clear that she didn't want, what she wanted was a dog that would fire up, look the business and stay by her side during the ordeal, not turn tail and run. My GSD in the same situation by natural instinct based purely upon his disposition towards strangers would have stopped the guy in his tracks simply due to him getting up on his back legs at the end of the leash barking furiously with his teeth hanging out. The guy wouldn't have the anatomy to proceed with an attack, especially if telling the guy to back off as the dog is attack trained and you will release him if necessary. It would take a "very brave" person not to retreat in those circumstances.

But, as you discovered Rex, without a fair amount of training dogs like yours can become dangerous and out of control.

How can a dog running purely on instinct interpret each 'dangerous' situation appropriately? Don't you understand the danger in letting the dog decide for itself when is the appropriate time to aggress and when isn't?

[Guest rhapsodical78]

Forget full blown personal protection dogs which she made clear that she didn't want, what she wanted was a dog that would fire up, look the business and stay by her side during the ordeal, not turn tail and run. My GSD in the same situation by natural instinct based purely upon his disposition towards strangers would have stopped the guy in his tracks simply due to him getting up on his back legs at the end of the leash barking furiously with his teeth hanging out. The guy wouldn't have the anatomy to proceed with an attack, especially if telling the guy to back off as the dog is attack trained and you will release him if necessary. It would take a "very brave" person not to retreat in those circumstances.

But, as you discovered Rex, without a fair amount of training dogs like yours can become dangerous and out of control.

How can a dog running purely on instinct interpret each 'dangerous' situation appropriately? Don't you understand the danger in letting the dog decide for itself when is the appropriate time to aggress and when isn't?

Huski, are you saying any dog with a guarding instinct is a dangerous dog unless trained in protection?

[huski]

Forget full blown personal protection dogs which she made clear that she didn't want, what she wanted was a dog that would fire up, look the business and stay by her side during the ordeal, not turn tail and run. My GSD in the same situation by natural instinct based purely upon his disposition towards strangers would have stopped the guy in his tracks simply due to him getting up on his back legs at the end of the leash barking furiously with his teeth hanging out. The guy wouldn't have the anatomy to proceed with an attack, especially if telling the guy to back off as the dog is attack trained and you will release him if necessary. It would take a "very brave" person not to retreat in those circumstances.

But, as you discovered Rex, without a fair amount of training dogs like yours can become dangerous and out of control.

How can a dog running purely on instinct interpret each 'dangerous' situation appropriately? Don't you understand the danger in letting the dog decide for itself when is the appropriate time to aggress and when isn't?

Huski, are you saying any dog with a guarding instinct is a dangerous dog unless trained in protection?

No, I'm saying that without a fair amount of training they can become dangerous and out of control - just like Rex's dog did.

Most high drive working line dogs aren't ideal for the average pet owner, and anyone who wants to own one needs to be prepared to put in a lot more training and work into the dog than you would a breed from "weaker" lines, or the dog can become bored, out of control, and yes - dangerous.

Edited September 12, 2009 by huski

[Guest rhapsodical78]

Forget full blown personal protection dogs which she made clear that she didn't want, what she wanted was a dog that would fire up, look the business and stay by her side during the ordeal, not turn tail and run. My GSD in the same situation by natural instinct based purely upon his disposition towards strangers would have stopped the guy in his tracks simply due to him getting up on his back legs at the end of the leash barking furiously with his teeth hanging out. The guy wouldn't have the anatomy to proceed with an attack, especially if telling the guy to back off as the dog is attack trained and you will release him if necessary. It would take a "very brave" person not to retreat in those circumstances.

But, as you discovered Rex, without a fair amount of training dogs like yours can become dangerous and out of control.

How can a dog running purely on instinct interpret each 'dangerous' situation appropriately? Don't you understand the danger in letting the dog decide for itself when is the appropriate time to aggress and when isn't?

Huski, are you saying any dog with a guarding instinct is a dangerous dog unless trained in protection?

No, I'm saying that without a fair amount of training they can become dangerous and out of control - just like Rex's dog did.

Most high drive working line dogs aren't ideal for the average pet owner, and anyone who wants to own one needs to be prepared to put in a lot more training and work into the dog than you would a breed from "weaker" lines, or the dog can become bored, out of control, and yes - dangerous.

My dog isn't dangerous or out of control. He has a protective instinct and he's not trained in protection work. It's only been displayed once, when it was most important. What should I do with my canine liability? Train him in protection work or muzzle him and stick him in a cage?

Dogs do not have to display aggression with any sort of regularity to make an accurate judgement when it counts. It's been shown time and time again.

[Shakti]

Rhapsodical - looking forward to hearing your breed suggestions

[Rex]

Rex - but that is on top of the two dogs she already has - i think she could actually work with the GSD she already has. Build confidence, speak/snarl/stir up on command, 'watch' etc and don't let go of the lead - she doesn't want the dog to self decide to maul someone who bumps into her on the footpath, but one that will perhaps stand with her and at least offer a visual deterance - even if just by perception.

Neither of my dogs would even lift a tail to defend my OH - but they will both stand with me as required and have done so previously.

ETA - no..perhaps i was wrong?

I too believe Brooke's GSD is workable at the level of protection she needs, but I am not convinced in untrained protection that you will attain a nice easily handled dog that cranks up on command. My GSD is a great visual protector, a perceived nasty defender in those circumstances, but was a handful of dog to control prior to extensive training. My GSD just doesn't like strangers full stop, doesn't need them in his life or personal space and seems to enjoy getting rid of them, scaring them away which looks to him as a victory. If you could read his mind, the impression he gives me, is like he is proud of the way he barked and bellowed and made someone go away, almost game like???. His training was all about teaching him not to react to strangers and behave nicely, not training to make him fire up which is what he does instinctively.

Edited September 12, 2009 by Rex

[huski]

My dog isn't dangerous or out of control. He has a protective instinct and he's not trained in protection work. It's only been displayed once, when it was most important. What should I do with my canine liability? Train him in protection work or muzzle him and stick him in a cage?

Where did I say the dogs have to be trained in protection work? There are plenty of high drive, working line dogs in pet homes that aren't trained in Schutzhund or PP work.

Rex is suggesting that the OP look at getting a high drive working line dog that will naturally and instinctively:

...stop the guy in his tracks simply due to him getting up on his back legs at the end of the leash barking furiously with his teeth hanging out.

Rex has posted several times about the rank aggression problems he had with his dog, before he found a police dog trainer to teach him how to train and handle his dog effectively.

It's a fact that high drive, working line dogs will take more training, and more knowledge, than lower drive dogs. There is a higher likelihood that if the dog is not adequately trained that it will become hard to control and dangerous. It is not the same as owning a 'pet' dog with weaker nerves and takes a lot more work and understanding and training.

[Guest rhapsodical78]

Rhapsodical - looking forward to hearing your breed suggestions

Mine are on page two! (I think)

[Guest rhapsodical78]

How can a dog running purely on instinct interpret each 'dangerous' situation appropriately? Don't you understand the danger in letting the dog decide for itself when is the appropriate time to aggress and when isn't?

This is what I'm questioning, Huski. If my dog and other dogs (Jed's dogs for example) can do it with no problems, so can other dogs.

[huski]

How can a dog running purely on instinct interpret each 'dangerous' situation appropriately? Don't you understand the danger in letting the dog decide for itself when is the appropriate time to aggress and when isn't?

This is what I'm questioning, Huski. If my dog and other dogs (Jed's dogs for example) can do it with no problems, so can other dogs.

But there are lots of dogs out there who are inappropriately aggressive towards people and other dogs, like Rex's dog did before he received proper training. Just because you feel your dog will assess each situation appropriately, and act of his own accord, and you're comfortable with that, does not mean that all dogs will make the 'right' decision as to who they aggress towards.