150 Dogs Seized Wondai

[~Anne~]

Yes, I realise this now. As I said, I made a simple comment without really putting a lot of thought into it.

[blackdog]

Yes - but my property is comfortably filled with our own Labs thanks very much.

And fostering the adults could be for an indefinate period.

But I have volunteered to assist with one of the litters + mum.

And as for "every breeder" being responsible - well I'm not just that into desexing baby puppies.

Hard to get my head around "chopping" into a 6 week old baby.

Wonder if your vet agree with the "chopping" terminology? The desexing is generally done at 8 weeks rather than 6. Whenever you sell an entire pup you have to consider that it may end up in a puppy farm, regardless of how well vetted the puppy buyers are.

Great that you're helping out with a litter and mother. :D Rescuing a dog isn't always convenient but I do believe it is the shared responsibility of all breeders.

Dear Pointeeblab - Actually most vets won't go near EAD (early age desexing) of puppies.

It is not supported by AVA nor was it found to be justified in a report commissioned by Qld Govt by Dr Linda Marston (Monash Uni).

It is a valuable "shelter management tool" where litters of unowned puppies are surrended.

But for me to have a baby Lab desexed (and still ready to go to new families at 8 weeks of age) desexing would need to be done at 6 weeks.

That allows for sufficient recovery time post op, wound treatment etc.

So yes - chopping is a really accurate term - removing the entire reproductive system of a baby bitch is MAJOR Surgery.

Oh and just BTW - if that baby puppy dies whilst on the table who's to blame?

Will the do-gooder, tree huggers come and wrap an arm around my shoulder and comfort me in my time of loss.

No way in the bloody world.

And just in closing - my responsibility is to my dogs and my clients - something that I have done very successfully for 30 years.

It is NOT my responsibility to rescue dogs at all - but in cases like the Wondai seizure I am more than willing to help.

Which is exactly why LRCQ Inc runs a Rescue & Rehome Service.

"Here endeth the first reading".

Every vet who is being trained at university is now being trained in paediatric desexing. So vets that do it in the future will be in the majority rather than the minority. My pups were desexed by a vet that I suspect you have used in the past. They were well experienced in the practice and the puppies recovery was amazingly fast. My understanding is that pups need to be close to 8 weeks before they are desexed. They were fine to go to new homes within 5 days. The wounds were tiny and the two sutures were taken out a few days after going home.

Losing pups/dogs is part of the business. Nobody comes and wraps an arm around your shoulder when you lose a dog during the GA given for hip and elbow desexing or a caesar for a pregnant bitch, yet those are procedures that are done routinely. It could happen to the pup at 8 weeks or it could happen to the pup when it's (hopefully) desexed at 12 months. It goes with the territory.

I believe that breeders have a responsibility to the dogs, their clients and the BREED as a whole. I don't buy that one breeder should take on the title of breed rescue and every breeder in the state expects them to cope with it all. There are far more labradors in shelters/requiring homes than one kennel can cope with. I have personally rescued, desexed and rehomed more dogs than I've ever bred. There are a lot of labradors requiring homes that never make it to the specific breed rescue. Everybody needs to do their bit.

Maybe Pointeeblab you and I need to have a more private conversation about your feelings regarding EAD, breeding responsibilities in general and more particularly ones commitment to ones chosen breed. You seem to know an awful lot about me (even about the type of property I own and how many dogs I can manage) and yet I am only guessing who you may be. I don't understand at all your comment about one breeder taking on the title of "breed rescue" at all - the LRCQ has an R&R service and two very committed members run that service on behalf of the Club.

They have the time, the focus and the contacts to do it and do it well. And Club members are willing to assist "where they can".

You obviously are ware of my credentials in the breed - I would be more than happy to learn more about yours.

Please email me privately at your convenience.

Dear Pointeeblab - still nothing privately received from you.

But never mind - now I know who you are.

We may all be better served if you actually completed your "apprenticeship" first.

Next time you decide to share your significant depth of knowledge remember that one litter does not a breeder make.

Please give my regards to Poppy and Dash.

[raz]

I've got say, after reading a document sent to me recently, I agree with everything blackdog has said above.

Early age desexing has a lot of negatives.

Could you sen to me as well please Puggles? My brother bought a pup from a 'breeder' who desexes all pups at 6 weeks.

I'm a tad concerned. Ta.

Edited September 25, 2009 by raz

[Sheridan]

Dear Pointeeblab - still nothing privately received from you.

But never mind - now I know who you are.

We may all be better served if you actually completed your "apprenticeship" first.

Next time you decide to share your significant depth of knowledge remember that one litter does not a breeder make.

Please give my regards to Poppy and Dash.

Sorry, but what's the point of this? Are we back to only breeders are allowed to comment even though this is a rescue topic? And are we now deliniating which breeders can comment based on how many litters they've had?

[~Anne~]

I've got say, after reading a document sent to me recently, I agree with everything blackdog has said above.

Early age desexing has a lot of negatives.

Could you sen to me as well please Puggles? My brother bought a pup from a 'breeder' who desexes all pups at 6 weeks.

I'm a tad concerned. Ta.

Email me as I don't have your email address. [email protected]

[Kirty]

Interesting regading the EAD, because a recent document I read found that there was no significant difference between desexing at 8 weeks vs desexing at 6 months. There were no increased risks during the surgery or as a result of the surgery.

Edited September 26, 2009 by Kirty

[Sheridan]

I think it depends on who's writing the article.

[Kissindra]

I would just like to point out that rescue dogs are more than just dogs dumped by irresponsible owners, puppy farm dogs and backyard breeder dogs.

NO breeder can be certain one of their dogs will not end up in rescue, you just can't be unless you keep them all.

I've seen dogs from breeders who screen thouroughly and have contracts end up in rescue or on dog selling sites, in more than a handful of cases in the past year I and others have been able to get these dogs back to their shocked breeders or the relevant breed rescue, or at the very least let breeders know their dogs are now looked after. Sometimes those dogs are entire, sometimes not - but they still found themselves needing rescue.

Your owners might be great and have all intentions of sticking by the contract they sign, but things can happen that put them out of the picture and a relative who has no idea there is a contract may find themselves unable to care for the dog/dogs and set about rehoming them or surrendering them. A dog might get out and the owners never find them again, could be the dog went further than they are looking, could be they relied on a call back from the pound who never made the connection because they had the details listed incorrect, could be someone just decided to keep it. Depending on the area the dog lives, it could be sold from a pound entire and end up in a puppy farm or backyard breeding. Puppies get stolen and sold on or kept, these dogs can end up in puppy farms or backyard breeding. And of course, breeders can get conned by buyers. Any breeder who thinks they can be 100% certain a dog of theirs wont end up in rescue is naive in the extreme.

The more links a breeder can establish with people who rescue, be it all breeds or breed specific, the better. Make sure people know if a dog of your breeding turns up you are there, but do NOT think it wont ever happen to your dogs because it can and it does. Unless you are in contact with every person who ever brought a puppy it may have already happened, but the dog/dogs were rehomed from somewhere that was not interested in contacting the breeder or was not aware the breeder would want to know. Maybe they were put to sleep.

Do I think every breeder should take in fosters? No, not everyone will have the set up and space for this, but the very least you can do is form lines of communication with the people who are going to be the ones to find any dogs of yours that slip through the cracks. If you are unable to contribute more than that, you should not feel forced to do so, but if you are able to contribute more than that then it's worth doing. maybe one year you help another breeder get their dog back, but maybe the next year it's you who will benefit from being part of the rescue network.

Edited September 26, 2009 by Kissindra

[blackdog]

Dear Pointeeblab - still nothing privately received from you.

But never mind - now I know who you are.

We may all be better served if you actually completed your "apprenticeship" first.

Next time you decide to share your significant depth of knowledge remember that one litter does not a breeder make.

Please give my regards to Poppy and Dash.

Sorry, but what's the point of this? Are we back to only breeders are allowed to comment even though this is a rescue topic? And are we now deliniating which breeders can comment based on how many litters they've had?

You are absolutely right Sheridan - it was a rescue topic until others tried to turn it into some sort of guilt trip.

All I did was post info to all responsible Labrador owners advising that the LRCQ was working with RSPCA to find suitable foster carers. Anybody able to assist could contact the Club via the details provided.

And from that came a diatribe about breeder responsibilty, early age desexing, whether adults advertised on DOL should be desexed or not -blah, blah, blah.

So when shots are being fired at responsible, long standing breeders I reserve the right to go on the defensive thanks.

Especially when those shots are being fired by a "newbie" with the experience of only one litter.

Would you prefer we all check with you first in future before posting?

[Sheridan]

Dear Pointeeblab - still nothing privately received from you.

But never mind - now I know who you are.

We may all be better served if you actually completed your "apprenticeship" first.

Next time you decide to share your significant depth of knowledge remember that one litter does not a breeder make.

Please give my regards to Poppy and Dash.

Sorry, but what's the point of this? Are we back to only breeders are allowed to comment even though this is a rescue topic? And are we now deliniating which breeders can comment based on how many litters they've had?

You are absolutely right Sheridan - it was a rescue topic until others tried to turn it into some sort of guilt trip.

All I did was post info to all responsible Labrador owners advising that the LRCQ was working with RSPCA to find suitable foster carers. Anybody able to assist could contact the Club via the details provided.

And from that came a diatribe about breeder responsibilty, early age desexing, whether adults advertised on DOL should be desexed or not -blah, blah, blah.

So when shots are being fired at responsible, long standing breeders I reserve the right to go on the defensive thanks.

Especially when those shots are being fired by a "newbie" with the experience of only one litter.

Would you prefer we all check with you first in future before posting?

Indeed, blah blah blah. To all of it. And clearly the answer to your question is yes.

[Steve]

Dear Pointeeblab - still nothing privately received from you.

But never mind - now I know who you are.

We may all be better served if you actually completed your "apprenticeship" first.

Next time you decide to share your significant depth of knowledge remember that one litter does not a breeder make.

Please give my regards to Poppy and Dash.

Sorry, but what's the point of this? Are we back to only breeders are allowed to comment even though this is a rescue topic? And are we now deliniating which breeders can comment based on how many litters they've had?

The point of this is that when people get attacked on a public forum they like to defend themselves I guess.

If they cant handle the heat they should stay out of the kitchen.Commenting on a topic isnt what that was about

it was about commenting on someone's personal situation in public trying to degrade them and lay guilt trips on them. Blackdog is simply

giving a tap back.

Edited September 26, 2009 by Steve

[Jed]

That's how I saw it too, Steve.

Go Blackdog,you have every right to defend yourself.

Everybody else does.

Don't bother checking with Sheridan, you couldn't post at all then

[Jed]

Interesting regading the EAD, because a recent document I read found that there was no significant difference between desexing at 8 weeks vs desexing at 6 months. There were no increased risks during the surgery or as a result of the surgery.

There is lots of information against it, and a lot of it involves difference in growth etc between early desexed or not. If you google Dr. Harry Corbett, a vet in Vic, you will find he has a lot of practical things to say about it.

My own vet, who has a masters degree in small animal surgery and medicine says the risks were greatly increased and will not do it. It has been carefully explained to me, and I have chosen not to do it.

[blackdog]

Interesting regading the EAD, because a recent document I read found that there was no significant difference between desexing at 8 weeks vs desexing at 6 months. There were no increased risks during the surgery or as a result of the surgery.

There is lots of information against it, and a lot of it involves difference in growth etc between early desexed or not. If you google Dr. Harry Corbett, a vet in Vic, you will find he has a lot of practical things to say about it.

My own vet, who has a masters degree in small animal surgery and medicine says the risks were greatly increased and will not do it. It has been carefully explained to me, and I have chosen not to do it.

And those risks are exactly why CCCQ and it's members fought so hard to overturn the Mandatory Desexing legislation that was proposed in Qld in 2008. For the first time (in a long time) Qld members of CCCQ banded together and fought against what was an ill conceived and draconian proposal. And to their credit the Qld Govt commissioned two reports from leading Uni Vet experts and they both advised against the introduction of EAD. Additionally reviews of where this type of law had been introduced (parts of USA & Europe) showed absolutely no difference in the number of dogs (and cats) being surrendered to pounds and shelters.

[Kirty]

Interesting regading the EAD, because a recent document I read found that there was no significant difference between desexing at 8 weeks vs desexing at 6 months. There were no increased risks during the surgery or as a result of the surgery.

There is lots of information against it, and a lot of it involves difference in growth etc between early desexed or not. If you google Dr. Harry Corbett, a vet in Vic, you will find he has a lot of practical things to say about it.

Are you serious?? Dr Corbett is a nutter. He is against desexing ANY animal at a young age, including kittens, despite all the information out there proving how safe it is. He frequently rants in my local paper about how many kittens have died at his clinic this week because of being desexed early... Absolute rot. Sorry but have no respect for him AT ALL. The paper I am referring to was based on research conducted by numerous vets. I'll try and dig it up.

[Sheridan]

Dear Pointeeblab - still nothing privately received from you.

But never mind - now I know who you are.

We may all be better served if you actually completed your "apprenticeship" first.

Next time you decide to share your significant depth of knowledge remember that one litter does not a breeder make.

Please give my regards to Poppy and Dash.

Sorry, but what's the point of this? Are we back to only breeders are allowed to comment even though this is a rescue topic? And are we now deliniating which breeders can comment based on how many litters they've had?

The point of this is that when people get attacked on a public forum they like to defend themselves I guess.

If they cant handle the heat they should stay out of the kitchen.Commenting on a topic isnt what that was about

it was about commenting on someone's personal situation in public trying to degrade them and lay guilt trips on them. Blackdog is simply

giving a tap back.

Oh dear. All a bit too pot kettle black for me.

[Guardienne]

Figures from RSPCA QLD annual report 2007-2008

Puppies and dogs reclaimed by their owners 4150

Puppies and dogs adopted 5152

Puppies and dogs euthanised 6962

More killed than rehomed.......

and whose fault is that? They don't breed the dogs do they?

My figures were in response to another post Pointeeblab but in response to your comment: No they don't breed the dogs, but these euth rates are shocking and appalling.

Edited September 26, 2009 by Guardienne

[Kirty]

So what do they do then? Who will take them on? Or should they just keep all the dogs, and keep getting more and more and more... Around 250,000 cats and dogs are PTS in shelters every year in Australia. Where should we put all those animals if we don't PTS?

[nickojoy]

Where should we put all those animals if we don't PTS?

Maybe the bathroom or under your bed

How many of these dogs are still in urgent need of help?

Is there any Labs that are ball crazy? We could try them with the Army for bomb dogs? I have contacts here at the training school in Moorebank.

Just a suggestion, and if they don't work out, they do get sacked, but they find them homes.

[blackdog]

Where should we put all those animals if we don't PTS?

Maybe the bathroom or under your bed

How many of these dogs are still in urgent need of help?

Is there any Labs that are ball crazy? We could try them with the Army for bomb dogs? I have contacts here at the training school in Moorebank.

Just a suggestion, and if they don't work out, they do get sacked, but they find them homes.

Thanks Nickojoy - every avenue will be explored eventually I'm sure.

But the whole situation regarding these dogs is very tricky.

Some are still undergoing assessment, others are delivering puppies as we speak.

This mornings Courier Mail reported that a blind 10yo cocker was about to have a litter.

Remember too that the raid on the Wondai was carried out by Biosecurity Qld.

RSPCA are assisting with temporary accomodation - either "in shelter" or with "approved foster carers".

But until this case goes to court and a ruling made the dogs (and puppies) still remain the property of the owner / puppy farmer.