150 Dogs Seized Wondai

[~Anne~]

I've got say, after reading a document sent to me recently, I agree with everything blackdog has said above.

Early age desexing has a lot of negatives.

Edited September 25, 2009 by PugRescueSydney

[peibe]

PRS, could you send me that document please

RSPCA did not breed these dogs, yes they PTS alot but is that their fault?

Many breeders do not beleive it is their responsibility to rescue, why is it then Joe Blows responsibility to adopt a rescue dog?

[blacklabrador]

Yes - but my property is comfortably filled with our own Labs thanks very much.

And fostering the adults could be for an indefinate period.

But I have volunteered to assist with one of the litters + mum.

And as for "every breeder" being responsible - well I'm not just that into desexing baby puppies.

Hard to get my head around "chopping" into a 6 week old baby.

Wonder if your vet agree with the "chopping" terminology? The desexing is generally done at 8 weeks rather than 6. Whenever you sell an entire pup you have to consider that it may end up in a puppy farm, regardless of how well vetted the puppy buyers are.

Great that you're helping out with a litter and mother. Rescuing a dog isn't always convenient but I do believe it is the shared responsibility of all breeders.

Dear Pointeeblab - Actually most vets won't go near EAD (early age desexing) of puppies.

It is not supported by AVA nor was it found to be justified in a report commissioned by Qld Govt by Dr Linda Marston (Monash Uni).

It is a valuable "shelter management tool" where litters of unowned puppies are surrended.

But for me to have a baby Lab desexed (and still ready to go to new families at 8 weeks of age) desexing would need to be done at 6 weeks.

That allows for sufficient recovery time post op, wound treatment etc.

So yes - chopping is a really accurate term - removing the entire reproductive system of a baby bitch is MAJOR Surgery.

Oh and just BTW - if that baby puppy dies whilst on the table who's to blame?

Will the do-gooder, tree huggers come and wrap an arm around my shoulder and comfort me in my time of loss.

No way in the bloody world.

And just in closing - my responsibility is to my dogs and my clients - something that I have done very successfully for 30 years.

It is NOT my responsibility to rescue dogs at all - but in cases like the Wondai seizure I am more than willing to help.

Which is exactly why LRCQ Inc runs a Rescue & Rehome Service.

"Here endeth the first reading".

Every vet who is being trained at university is now being trained in paediatric desexing. So vets that do it in the future will be in the majority rather than the minority. My pups were desexed by a vet that I suspect you have used in the past. They were well experienced in the practice and the puppies recovery was amazingly fast. My understanding is that pups need to be close to 8 weeks before they are desexed. They were fine to go to new homes within 5 days. The wounds were tiny and the two sutures were taken out a few days after going home.

Losing pups/dogs is part of the business. Nobody comes and wraps an arm around your shoulder when you lose a dog during the GA given for hip and elbow desexing or a caesar for a pregnant bitch, yet those are procedures that are done routinely. It could happen to the pup at 8 weeks or it could happen to the pup when it's (hopefully) desexed at 12 months. It goes with the territory.

I believe that breeders have a responsibility to the dogs, their clients and the BREED as a whole. I don't buy that one breeder should take on the title of breed rescue and every breeder in the state expects them to cope with it all. There are far more labradors in shelters/requiring homes than one kennel can cope with. I have personally rescued, desexed and rehomed more dogs than I've ever bred. There are a lot of labradors requiring homes that never make it to the specific breed rescue. Everybody needs to do their bit.

[Jed]

I've got say, after reading a document sent to me recently, I agree with everything blackdog has said above.

Early age desexing has a lot of negatives.

Many negatives. I looked into it a few years, disussed with a couple ofveterinary specialists, a repro specialist and a MACVSc with a specialty in surgery, and I did a lot of research into long term effects, and decided the negatives were many and the positives few.

As a breeder of one of the breeds most favoured by pf, it bothers me, but the alternatives are worse, imho. So far the interror-gations have worked, and I make buyers sign an agreement that they will not rehome or sell.

[blacklabrador]

I've got say, after reading a document sent to me recently, I agree with everything blackdog has said above.

Early age desexing has a lot of negatives.

Many negatives. I looked into it a few years, disussed with a couple ofveterinary specialists, a repro specialist and a MACVSc with a specialty in surgery, and I did a lot of research into long term effects, and decided the negatives were many and the positives few.

As a breeder of one of the breeds most favoured by pf, it bothers me, but the alternatives are worse, imho. So far the interror-gations have worked, and I make buyers sign an agreement that they will not rehome or sell.

I do accept that there are some physical drawbacks to early desexing. However the serious ones are not common.

Jed the benefits are that your pup has no chance of ending up in a puppy farm subjected to a life of misery. The benefit is also that your dog cannot be bred from with the boxer from down the road. Your bloodlines go only to the people that are registered breeders/exhibitors.

Signing an agreement at the time of purchase unfortunately guarantees nothing. Doing rescue makes you realise how often these verbal/written contracts are breached. A year down the track when there is potential money to be made they can be easily forgotten.

I am not saying that everybody should be desexing their pups, I am saying that if you don't then you must accept some possibility that you are contributing to back yard breeding and puppy farming. Whether it's the dog you sold or the progeny of the dog you sold. The purebred and often papered dogs involved don't come out of thin air!

Registered breeders also often rehome mature dogs without desexing them. They are all over the breed pages of DOL. There is absolutely no excuse for that.

[Sheridan]

Registered breeders also often rehome mature dogs without desexing them. They are all over the breed pages of DOL. There is absolutely no excuse for that.

Should mature dogs only be allowed to be advertised on DOL if they're desexed?

[~Anne~]

PRS, could you send me that document please

RSPCA did not breed these dogs, yes they PTS alot but is that their fault?

Many breeders do not beleive it is their responsibility to rescue, why is it then Joe Blows responsibility to adopt a rescue dog?

Yes will do. From a welfare perspective, I'd still be advocating desexing pups but from a breeding perspective - no way. Even the welfare perspective is a fine line in trying to determine the risks either way to be honest.

[~Anne~]

Registered breeders also often rehome mature dogs without desexing them. They are all over the breed pages of DOL. There is absolutely no excuse for that.

Should mature dogs only be allowed to be advertised on DOL if they're desexed?

I'd say yes.

[Steve]

I've got say, after reading a document sent to me recently, I agree with everything blackdog has said above.

Early age desexing has a lot of negatives.

Many negatives. I looked into it a few years, disussed with a couple ofveterinary specialists, a repro specialist and a MACVSc with a specialty in surgery, and I did a lot of research into long term effects, and decided the negatives were many and the positives few.

As a breeder of one of the breeds most favoured by pf, it bothers me, but the alternatives are worse, imho. So far the interror-gations have worked, and I make buyers sign an agreement that they will not rehome or sell.

I do accept that there are some physical drawbacks to early desexing. However the serious ones are not common.

Jed the benefits are that your pup has no chance of ending up in a puppy farm subjected to a life of misery. The benefit is also that your dog cannot be bred from with the boxer from down the road. Your bloodlines go only to the people that are registered breeders/exhibitors.

Signing an agreement at the time of purchase unfortunately guarantees nothing. Doing rescue makes you realise how often these verbal/written contracts are breached. A year down the track when there is potential money to be made they can be easily forgotten.

I am not saying that everybody should be desexing their pups, I am saying that if you don't then you must accept some possibility that you are contributing to back yard breeding and puppy farming. Whether it's the dog you sold or the progeny of the dog you sold. The purebred and often papered dogs involved don't come out of thin air!

Registered breeders also often rehome mature dogs without desexing them. They are all over the breed pages of DOL. There is absolutely no excuse for that.

How do you know they arent common? Define common? According to the paper PRS is speaking about they are quite common.

[WreckitWhippet]

Registered breeders also often rehome mature dogs without desexing them. They are all over the breed pages of DOL. There is absolutely no excuse for that.

Should mature dogs only be allowed to be advertised on DOL if they're desexed?

I'd say yes.

so we should not be able to sell any main register dogs or bitches that are suitable for the show ring ?

If the dog or bitch is not of show /breeding quality , then by all means desex before rehoming but there's nothing wrong with selling a mature animal to an approved home, it's no different to selling a puppy, other than the mature animal can be viewed.

[Steve]

Registered breeders also often rehome mature dogs without desexing them. They are all over the breed pages of DOL. There is absolutely no excuse for that.

Should mature dogs only be allowed to be advertised on DOL if they're desexed?

I'd say yes.

Come off it.Do you reckon breeders will have any ability to make any decisions for themselves soon?

[~Anne~]

Come off it.Do you reckon breeders will have any ability to make any decisions for themselves soon?

I made a simple comment without putting much thought into it to be honest. When I think of mature dogs on DOL, I think of dogs that are no longer needed by a breeder for showing or breeding. 'Ex-stock' as such. I've seen many of these in the Pug world and many are being re-homed entire to pet homes. I hadn't really contemplated other reasons.

[blacklabrador]

Registered breeders also often rehome mature dogs without desexing them. They are all over the breed pages of DOL. There is absolutely no excuse for that.

Should mature dogs only be allowed to be advertised on DOL if they're desexed?

I'd say yes.

so we should not be able to sell any main register dogs or bitches that are suitable for the show ring ?

If the dog or bitch is not of show /breeding quality , then by all means desex before rehoming but there's nothing wrong with selling a mature animal to an approved home, it's no different to selling a puppy, other than the mature animal can be viewed.

Some of the advertised dogs are obviously for continued showing, but others are being rehomed for other reasons, some because they haven't turned out or pets who have been returned to breeders who are kind enough to help find them another home.

Doesn't the "F" kennels puppy farm have Aust Ch titled dogs? Wonder where they did they came from?

[~Anne~]

One recently that 'got my goat' was a Pug breeder who re-homed a bitch to a woman who was on my list. She re-homed the bitch "at a reduced rate because she was such a good quality dog who had won ribbons..." as the new owner proudly told me. The bitch was 5 years of age and was sold undesexed and without her papers.

That is the kind of situation I think of when I think of adult dogs being sold. As I said, I obviously hadn't contemplated the other reasons that would exist where it would be not suitable to desex the dog. (edited to add the word 'not')

Edited September 25, 2009 by PugRescueSydney

[Steve]

Ive got a couple of champs here one of which was no longer needed by the breeder because she didnt want to in breed and she was happy for me to have him to continue with what I was doing in my breeding program. There's heaps of good reasons why breeders would want to sell an entire adult dog.

[Jed]

I've got say, after reading a document sent to me recently, I agree with everything blackdog has said above.

Early age desexing has a lot of negatives.

Many negatives. I looked into it a few years, disussed with a couple ofveterinary specialists, a repro specialist and a MACVSc with a specialty in surgery, and I did a lot of research into long term effects, and decided the negatives were many and the positives few.

As a breeder of one of the breeds most favoured by pf, it bothers me, but the alternatives are worse, imho. So far the interror-gations have worked, and I make buyers sign an agreement that they will not rehome or sell.

I do accept that there are some physical drawbacks to early desexing. However the serious ones are not common.

Jed the benefits are that your pup has no chance of ending up in a puppy farm subjected to a life of misery. The benefit is also that your dog cannot be bred from with the boxer from down the road. Your bloodlines go only to the people that are registered breeders/exhibitors.

Signing an agreement at the time of purchase unfortunately guarantees nothing. Doing rescue makes you realise how often these verbal/written contracts are breached. A year down the track when there is potential money to be made they can be easily forgotten.

I am not saying that everybody should be desexing their pups, I am saying that if you don't then you must accept some possibility that you are contributing to back yard breeding and puppy farming. Whether it's the dog you sold or the progeny of the dog you sold. The purebred and often papered dogs involved don't come out of thin air!

Registered breeders also often rehome mature dogs without desexing them. They are all over the breed pages of DOL. There is absolutely no excuse for that.

I have always, and will always do whatever is in the best interests of the welfare and health of the dogs I breed. Always.

So far, there are no representatives of my breed in puppy farms. One went to a dodgy home, so I changed the way I did things.

I don't accept any responsibility for any possibility that I am contributing to puppy farming, or byb.

Nor have any of my dogs fetched up in rescue.

And I don't feel any need to justify myself, but I rescued for years.

[Jed]

One recently that 'got my goat' was a Pug breeder who re-homed a bitch to a woman who was on my list. She re-homed the bitch "at a reduced rate because she was such a good quality dog who had won ribbons..." as the new owner proudly told me. The bitch was 5 years of age and was sold undesexed and without her papers.

That is the kind of situation I think of when I think of adult dogs being sold. As I said, I obviously hadn't contemplated the other reasons that would exist where it would be not suitable to desex the dog. (edited to add the word 'not')

Shonky!!

Also not transferrring the papers is against the COE of the CCs.

[blackdog]

Yes - but my property is comfortably filled with our own Labs thanks very much.

And fostering the adults could be for an indefinate period.

But I have volunteered to assist with one of the litters + mum.

And as for "every breeder" being responsible - well I'm not just that into desexing baby puppies.

Hard to get my head around "chopping" into a 6 week old baby.

Wonder if your vet agree with the "chopping" terminology? The desexing is generally done at 8 weeks rather than 6. Whenever you sell an entire pup you have to consider that it may end up in a puppy farm, regardless of how well vetted the puppy buyers are.

Great that you're helping out with a litter and mother. Rescuing a dog isn't always convenient but I do believe it is the shared responsibility of all breeders.

Dear Pointeeblab - Actually most vets won't go near EAD (early age desexing) of puppies.

It is not supported by AVA nor was it found to be justified in a report commissioned by Qld Govt by Dr Linda Marston (Monash Uni).

It is a valuable "shelter management tool" where litters of unowned puppies are surrended.

But for me to have a baby Lab desexed (and still ready to go to new families at 8 weeks of age) desexing would need to be done at 6 weeks.

That allows for sufficient recovery time post op, wound treatment etc.

So yes - chopping is a really accurate term - removing the entire reproductive system of a baby bitch is MAJOR Surgery.

Oh and just BTW - if that baby puppy dies whilst on the table who's to blame?

Will the do-gooder, tree huggers come and wrap an arm around my shoulder and comfort me in my time of loss.

No way in the bloody world.

And just in closing - my responsibility is to my dogs and my clients - something that I have done very successfully for 30 years.

It is NOT my responsibility to rescue dogs at all - but in cases like the Wondai seizure I am more than willing to help.

Which is exactly why LRCQ Inc runs a Rescue & Rehome Service.

"Here endeth the first reading".

Every vet who is being trained at university is now being trained in paediatric desexing. So vets that do it in the future will be in the majority rather than the minority. My pups were desexed by a vet that I suspect you have used in the past. They were well experienced in the practice and the puppies recovery was amazingly fast. My understanding is that pups need to be close to 8 weeks before they are desexed. They were fine to go to new homes within 5 days. The wounds were tiny and the two sutures were taken out a few days after going home.

Losing pups/dogs is part of the business. Nobody comes and wraps an arm around your shoulder when you lose a dog during the GA given for hip and elbow desexing or a caesar for a pregnant bitch, yet those are procedures that are done routinely. It could happen to the pup at 8 weeks or it could happen to the pup when it's (hopefully) desexed at 12 months. It goes with the territory.

I believe that breeders have a responsibility to the dogs, their clients and the BREED as a whole. I don't buy that one breeder should take on the title of breed rescue and every breeder in the state expects them to cope with it all. There are far more labradors in shelters/requiring homes than one kennel can cope with. I have personally rescued, desexed and rehomed more dogs than I've ever bred. There are a lot of labradors requiring homes that never make it to the specific breed rescue. Everybody needs to do their bit.

Maybe Pointeeblab you and I need to have a more private conversation about your feelings regarding EAD, breeding responsibilities in general and more particularly ones commitment to ones chosen breed. You seem to know an awful lot about me (even about the type of property I own and how many dogs I can manage) and yet I am only guessing who you may be. I don't understand at all your comment about one breeder taking on the title of "breed rescue" at all - the LRCQ has an R&R service and two very committed members run that service on behalf of the Club.

They have the time, the focus and the contacts to do it and do it well. And Club members are willing to assist "where they can".

You obviously are ware of my credentials in the breed - I would be more than happy to learn more about yours.

Please email me privately at your convenience.

[Kissindra]

well things got somewhat off topic there but while I've got the chance to ask - those that have looked into it, what did you find in reguards to the safety and potential pros/cons of early de-sexing alternatives (tube tying was one, can't remember what the boys get, I'm presuming something like a vasectomy ). I remember this being talked about a while ago but had not heard any feedback on the subject since then.

Anyhow! Did the foster course today, covered all relevent subjects and we were given extensive training notes, information and a volunteer handbook. Yes potential foster homes are made well aware of issues ahead of time (and can say yes or no to fostering the individual) and the follow on support and back up support sounds excellent. Got to see some of the Wondai dogs too :D

Edited September 25, 2009 by Kissindra

[Jed]

Come off it.Do you reckon breeders will have any ability to make any decisions for themselves soon?

I made a simple comment without putting much thought into it to be honest. When I think of mature dogs on DOL, I think of dogs that are no longer needed by a breeder for showing or breeding. 'Ex-stock' as such. I've seen many of these in the Pug world and many are being re-homed entire to pet homes. I hadn't really contemplated other reasons.

Not always - plenty of mature breeding or show animals change homes.

I bought my second stud dog when he was - forgotten - about 2, - and that was good for me, because at that stage I had NFI how good or otherwise a pup would turn out, though I could pick a mature dog. He had sired pups, he had won bob at a royal. He wasn't on dol, the breeder sold him to me because he had other dogs, he liked showing, and had young dogs with his prefix to bring on, and he felt the dog would thrive with fewer dogs, plus, he wasn't going to use him much, and he thought he would be wasted if he was not used a bit, and I suspect that it may have been to give me a good leg up in the breed.

Sometimes people will sell a dog which is not winning a lot in the city to someone who shows in the country, or an adult dog which is overshadowed by another in the kennel to another state or location.