My Dog Is Training Me, Should I Be Worried? :-)

[Guest RosieFT]

After the bird incident (bird landed in front of dogs nose, she took off and did not "come"), I wanted to re-establish good recall so started taking old faithful (tennis ball) out on walks with me.

Ball is in pocket, when Rosie responds to a recall, I throw the ball a few times, then say "enough" and put it back in pocket. She is SO much better at just getting back on with being a dog and leaving me alone once it is packed away.

Her recall is 100%, the speed of return in phenomenal and she is constantly turning her head to look back at me from whereever she is sniffing, running too. She will even recall from running at super speed to the bush with the very noisy chirrupping honey eaters in it.

HOWEVER, this past week she has started a new game.

First she would go further and further away from me, turning to look at me every few metres, until i would call her to me, and she would BOLT back to me. Have the ball thrown a few times, then it was packed away and off she would go 'being a dog', sniffing and enjoying her freedom.

So I started to ignore her and found she would not go too far and returned on her own, or i would change my direction and she would come barrelling back anyway without a recall.

So now she upped the anti again. Today whilst off lead she spotted a magpie in the middle of the oval. So she started trotting towards it, slowing to look back at me as she went, when i didn't call her, she would run a few steps closer, then turn back to look at me... SHE WAS PRETENDING TO CHASE THE BIRD SO I WOULD RECALL HER!

So, what now? just play along? :-)

oh, and although i say 'give' when i want her to drop the ball so i can throw it, and use "enough" when i remove it from her. She is getting less inclined to 'give'. When i say give she shakes the heck out of the ball like she does when she is tired and doesn't want it thrown anymore. She will eventually give, but is obviously concerned it will be taken away. Even though i never put it away after a 'give' command to try and avoid this. Help? treats for swapping?

thanks.

[Aidan]

So now she upped the anti again. Today whilst off lead she spotted a magpie in the middle of the oval. So she started trotting towards it, slowing to look back at me as she went, when i didn't call her, she would run a few steps closer, then turn back to look at me... SHE WAS PRETENDING TO CHASE THE BIRD SO I WOULD RECALL HER!

Even though i never put it away after a 'give' command to try and avoid this. Help? treats for swapping?

Another ball, of course!

[Guest RosieFT]

Thanks Aidan

I understand your swap with a ball scenario for teaching her to give up something. She knows it, but now is reticent to do so in case it is taken away. I cannot give her another ball at the park as I don't like the fixated, obsessional behaviour. She then no longer wants anything but hte ball thrown and I might as well be in my back garden! :-) But I will for sure do that at home for awhile to reinforce the 'give'. I will take treats to give her when i take teh ball from her when out.

So her trying to lure me into calling her back so she can have the ball is just good, clean fun? :-)

[Aidan]

Thanks Aidan

I understand your swap with a ball scenario for teaching her to give up something. She knows it, but now is reticent to do so in case it is taken away. I cannot give her another ball at the park as I don't like the fixated, obsessional behaviour. She then no longer wants anything but hte ball thrown and I might as well be in my back garden! :-)

Some people love that sort of drive, if you can figure out how to use it to your advantage it is very powerful.

So her trying to lure me into calling her back so she can have the ball is just good, clean fun? :-)

Of course! All dog training is a transaction, you just make sure you get what you want out of it too. This sounds like the sort of dog who could excel in just about any endeavour.

[Erny]

Are you able to set up the situation so that you can you ignore her going after the birds and even 'disappear' on her when she does? This will help her understand that she doesn't own or control the game.

If that's not possible and if it was continue to be a problem, I'd be inclined to teach her e-collar training (low stim/negative reinforcement). But then I already have the training equipment for this so for me that side of things wouldn't be a big issue. But the style of e-collar training that I do is complimentary to the dog's drive which means you would retain her enthusiasm for the ball and increase recall compliance without her 'working you'.

Edited September 11, 2009 by Erny

[Aidan]

How is her recall compliance when she knows you don't have a ball on offer?

[Erny]

Good question Aidan. I was assuming a ball was required for recall command compliance.

If that's not the case, then putting her on an intermittent schedule of reinforcement might assist. I admit however that I like to reward recall the greater percentage of times. Perhaps you can look at reward variance.

[Guest RosieFT]

Just to clarify, I do not show her that I have the ball, it is in my pocket out of sight. We walk to park on leash, and once there she is let off to run around as I i do a lap around the oval. I do not bring out the ball unless I have had to recall her for some reason. She comes back to me, sits in front of me, i tell her 'good' and then bring out the ball. There is not ball until she is sitting in front of me. I throw it a few times, then 'enough' and pack it away out of sight. She then tootles off to sniff and do what she likes.

She is currently assuming I do have the ball as the last couple of weeks i have not recalled her without having it as a reward, BUT it is not on show before or during the recall.

Now the recall is good again, shall i reward on and off and keep her guessing - ie intermittantly?

Aidan - it certainly shows intelligence! The only thing higher on her drive scale is water from a hose/squirty bottle. That wins hands down over anything, but i totally lose her brain. Well not totally lose her brain, she will respond to commands but it is very tentative and she is quivering ready to explode and really cannot contain herself for long.

She would be a great fly ball dog but they don't do it over here (Perth). She also goes down the kids slide and jumps over things on command :-) .

If only I was a better trainer I am sure she could do amazing things. She certainly has drive for ANY thing she thinks will be a game. tug/stick/ball. She knows I usually throw the ball for her when i hang out the washing (i am home with kids so interact a fair bit during the day), so as soon as she hears me pick up a washing basket, or the click of the washing machine she is at my side. Her toys are kept on the shelf in the laundry and she actually runs the half metre between me and the shelf while i am unloading machine, staring up at shelf then me, then shelf. She actually does this little gulp too - drives me nuts, I have to admit. SHe is just SOOOO darned excited at the prospect of the ball coming out.

If i don't get the tennis ball, she brings me her basket ball to kick while i am outside. so yes, hmm, i *think* she has drive... LOL

She knows to bring me her 'tug' if i ask for it. Will give it, tug on command, release it on command, retrieve it. Sorry, only mention that because i see threads on teaching dogs to tug and like tugging and I cannot understand how a dog just doesn't 'do it' as Rosie loves it.

Thankyou both for your help.

[Guest RosieFT]

"recall compliance when I don't have the ball" - not 100%.

As a puppy I taught her recall in garden, and on a long leash. Thought she was great. Took her to dog beach as a young pup and she would have gone home with anyone. She showed no loyalty to us at all and behaved as if we were invisible LOL.

We started bringing the ball but at this time if she ran off, and then ignored her recall, i would say 'where's your ball?" and throw it and she would return. I never said 'where's your ball' if i didn't have it. So, i guess we taught her to keep an eye on us, and to not wander far with the lure of the ball. But we no longer have the ball when we go walking with her etc. Re introducing it is recent after the bird incident as her recall response dropped.

She used to be very silly if she knew the ball was on my person, would not go off and 'be a dog' constantly jumping up to sniff to find ball so stopped brining it. Am super happy this time to find she will respond to 'enough' and get on with it now.

hmmmm after the bird incident we went walking along a creek and there were ducks - nothing stopped her going after the ducks. Soon after this i started bringing the ball along.

Should i stop using the ball and see what happens? She is not interested in treats if distracted. they work great at home, but not rated highly if anything else is going on. I like the fact that she constantly is turning to look where i am as she sniffs around. But was concerned that she was 'working me' as Erny put it!

thanks

[Erny]

Now the recall is good again, shall i reward on and off and keep her guessing - ie intermittantly?

Thanks for the clarification RosieFT and apologies if I didn't read it correctly in the first place.

Actually, I think it would be better to reduce the reward value. She's recognised the sequences of the exercise and the result (ie ball) and linked them together. {Chase birds + recall = ball}. So in effect, she's being rewarded with her 2nd highest reinforcer for not only the recall but also chasing birds. If you reduce the reinforcer to something she likes but not of as high value and then when she is sent back out again, do a recall that is in no way attached to the birds, and reward that with the ball.