A Vaguely On Topic Apology

[corvus]

I'm just putting this here because this is where the people I want to apologise to hang out.

I just want to apologise for getting frustrated with folks. I'm used to people who know me a little better and know that I balance positive training methods with boundaries and consistency. It's been a long time since I've had a new audience that doesn't know that and might make assumptions from the gaping holes in my theorising that I have left in the interests of getting to the point. I then try to reassure people that I'm not one of those positive trainers that tiptoe around their animals on a case by case basis and it doesn't work, but I get caught up in it and just get increasingly irritated because we're not discussing what I wanted to discuss and now I'm getting criticised for long posts that I find tedious and annoying to write in the first place.

I have been told I come off arrogant and snobbish. I'm not really sure why this is, but I'm here to learn, which is why I ask people how they do things at all. I know I then argue about it and everyone rolls their eyes and goes "why do you even bother asking if you're just going to argue about it?". That's a fair call. I guess to me a good discussion has different perspectives so I try to give mine so we can get to the bottom of why we do what we do.

Sorry to everyone who thinks I'm being snooty and argumentative. I am honestly trying not to! I don't have this problem in real life. Also sorry to the people who do take my posts in the spirit I intended, and give me something I would like to talk about more only to get shunted aside because I'm too busy getting riled by the answers that weren't to my liking.

I have come to see that I do have quite a few things in common with other people on this board when it comes to training methods. I post here because I would like to figure out what the similarities are and what the differences are and why they occur. I think this makes for good discussions, and I would very much like to have these discussions without aggravating people or making them feel like they have to defend their own methods.

Could we start again, perhaps? I'll try to remember that people can't read my mind and you can all at least pretend you don't think I'm an academic snob what looks down her nose at everyone. I'm not! I promise. There'd be no point in me posting at all if I was.

Edited September 6, 2009 by corvus

[Shakti]

I have always enjoyed reading your posts because they get me thinking about the *Why?* for the things I do. Occasionally I have tried methods you have suggested - other times I have stuck with my own but at least I have always learnt something from your posts and your discussions.

So from one DOLer at least - no apology needed!

[alpha bet]

Corvus - My comments have nothing to do with your actually postings just an observation in general on forums.

I have only been posting here recently.... Generally find that there are lots of problems with forums..... horse forums can be just the same. Just read any of the crap people write that follows some of the youtube entries.

Personally, I find I browse the forum..... see a topic I think I might have something to offer...... and make my post.....

If someone then comes on and disagrees with my posting I dont go back and post.... I feel I have made my contribution and leave it for others to make theirs. Doesn't mean I am not disappointed someone hasnt understood and at times have felt a bit upset that someone would make cutting or sarcastic remarks about one of my posts - but i try to move on and not take it personal.

From some of the reading I have done on this forum there is often the danger of falling into an online arguement.... of which no one can win because there is no option of sitting there with someone and clarify points as you go.... it is too complicated to try this on a back and forward forum where responses take too long and hence ends up going off topic and pointless.

Another problem is that often people can missinterprete what is written, perhaps because they havent understood the reasoning or what is written is ambiguous.

Sometimes the hardest thing to do is to stop and not respond.

Everyone should consider these points when you post online - take care in what you post.

Hope you find this posting in support of your frustration....

[persephone]

Corvus- you have lots to share, and obviously are keen to learn ,and to discuss..

and I enjoy hearing the 'harey' tales , having had wild things in my home as well..

Must admit tho,as a lazybones, I often find your posts seem too wordy for me to concentrate on properly. The discussion can be flying along...and by the time I read it all, and think about it... the 'conversation' has taken another turn, and I'm lost ! sorry

[Kavik]

I think it would be easier to understand what you are actually trying to say if you could try to be more concise with less meandering padding in your posts. The padding not only makes it long, it also detracts from any point you are trying to make and is often unclear and 'muddy' which makes you come across as inconsistent and unsure of what you are doing and what you think.

[Quickasyoucan]

I always find your posts quite amusing, if a bit long, but I do suffer from the "wordy" disease myself on occasions.

On occasions you do come across as arrogant, the written word does not allow for nuances. But it's great that you are aware of that and you don't come across as taking yourself too seriously.

It would be a boring world if we all agreed. My only mantra in life is never think you know everything, as you can never stop learning. I am happy to be proved wrong about something, nothing more boring than someone who "knows" they are right and everyone else is wrong.

BTW I saw my first wild hare the other day. Never seen one before, was so excited, actually thought of you and yours!

[corvus]

Thank you people. Alpha bet, some good lessons for me, there. I will endeavour to be less wordy in future and try to stay out of arguments.

[JulesP]

This is a 'discussion' forum. Bit boring if no discussing happens. There are some rather blunt characters here. I get upset sometimes but try not to take it personally.

Your posts are a tad long though

[Mym]

LOL - have you ever met a dog owner who didn't have an opinion?!

It is just a forum - which is good for me because my family are sick of talking to me about dogs :D

No harm done Corvus.

[4Kelpies]

This is a discussion forum. I expect to see a wide range of opinions. I've read some messages here where I've thought I'd really like to meet this person and others where I think the poster doesn't know nearly as much as they think they do. But this is going to happen anywhere I go. Probably people have read my messages and thought either of these things as well. If I find a post or a discussion too long winded I tend to skim it or sometime just lose interest and go to another topic. Some arguments I find quite silly but I admit I tend to read them to the end - they're more entertaining than the soapies.

Corvus I haven't read all your posts (haven't read all of anyone else's either) and haven't agreed with all of your ideas but I haven't seen any that I found insulting or arrogant. I don't think you need to apologize. It's very hard to express an opinion in writing (even with all the emoticons) without sounding arrogant. In a spoken conversation no one keeps say "I think" or "these are my ideas" without sounding big headed, but when contributing to a forum like this it's inevitable.

Wouldn't it be dull here if one person wrote their ideas and all the other posters said "Yes I agree."

[Rusky]

There are three of us who meet weekly for a social gathering with our dogs. We are great friends, we are all dog trainers, we have very heated debates sometimes. We manage to remain good friends.

I love debate and discussion. If someone has something they do for a particular aspect of dog training and it works better than what I currently do, or maybe with a particular dog.. I will always give it a go if it makes sense to me. Dogs and learning about dogs just never stops. Once upon a time I would learn something new every day and relish it. I love to learn new things. I love to work things out and even if I don't agree with other trainers I always have a respect for their opinion and ideas.

There are some very funny people on DOL.. I mean funny ha ha :D Some of their humour is dry and not to be taken offence at, some are just blunt...actually they are the ones I like the most. If someone has upset you then read a few of their posts and you will see they post similarly to whoever in a situation they don't like. It doesn't mean they are nasty it is just their forum posting manner which can be totally different from the reality.

[Staff'n'Toller]

It took me a long time to work out which posts I should be 'all in' and others which were better left to their own devices. You will find there are lots of balanced trainers and a very small handful of purely positive trainers and some of us crossover trainers who are a bit in-between. There have been lots of flames in the past and we all (for the most part) dance very well around each other. Never the twain will meet style.

I don't think you're a snob, I think your reality and mine are very far apart, but I could say that for a number of the personalities here on the board in general. You will probably find the hot topics are discussed by trainers out there walking the walk and working with lots of dogs other than their own, and everyone else just sits by and watches the sparks.

I had pre-conceived ideas about e-collars before I came on here, but reading posts from Erny and Cosmolo I can understand how they are used not as a horrible punisher but as another form of delivering some clear communication to a dog. Although, since I don't use them, I stay the f*** out of those discussion threads. :D

So, I don't think you need to apologise as such, but just........chill out a bit :D we have very thick skins, you don't need to worry so much, but you won't convert everyone on this board- you'll die trying.

Edited September 7, 2009 by Staff'n'Toller

[Kelpie-i]

Some people have the knack of writing eloquently and then there's me

Corvus, as others mentioned, whilst your posts are long-winded, you are entitled to your opinion and to express your thoughts on a matter. But when you ask things like "how would you" or "what do you do", then expect answers that you may not necessarily consider or agree with.

I've never sensed any of your posts as being arrogant. :D

[corvus]

Wouldn't it be dull here if one person wrote their ideas and all the other posters said "Yes I agree."

Yes. Which is why I don't start these discussions in places where everyone will agree with me. Unless I'm feeling a little battered from discussing them here. :D

I'm not in the business of converting, and I think that's where discussions about training methods can get messy and frustrating. Everyone does what they think is working best, and most people are pretty committed to that for obvious reasons. Having people come to your way of thinking is the ultimate in affirmation and everyone likes it. I don't flatter myself to think I've ever changed anyone's mind about anything and don't need to have done so to feel my opinions hold merit, but it sure is nice when you can add to a general knowledge pool or say something that makes someone think, whether it's about why they agree or why they disagree.

[Are You Serious Jo]

I never! I expressed my distrust of behaviourists that don't know as much as I do. There's a difference. Would you trust a behaviourist that didn't know as much as you did?

Take from this what you will, but this sort of thing gets up people's nose. Don't forget that there are behaviourists that go to uni as well. Maybe they are right and you are wrong, just sayin :D

[Staranais]

I never! I expressed my distrust of behaviourists that don't know as much as I do. There's a difference. Would you trust a behaviourist that didn't know as much as you did?

Take from this what you will, but this sort of thing gets up people's nose. Don't forget that there are behaviourists that go to uni as well. Maybe they are right and you are wrong, just sayin :D

Well, I don't trust most behaviourists either, having had some bad experiences with people who talked the talk but had no idea what to do with my dog (not that they were willing to admit as much!) I do admire some of the behaviourists who post here, most trainers and behaviourists on DOL really seem to have their heads screwed on correctly and are very generous about giving out free advice to people who need help. But off DOL, I would never assume that someone was competent at reading or handling dogs simply because they called themselves a behaviourist.

So I guess what I'm saying is I can see where Corvus is coming from, though I agree that it may have been a bit combative for her to say so on a forum populated by behaviourists!

I enjoy Corvus's posts for the most part, although they can get a bit rambling and tediously argumentative (sorry Corvus), they also add a different viewpoint to the forum and she has some interesting thoughts and brings up some interesting topics.

:D

[corvus]

It's like reading a book written by someone who can't write as well as you can, jdavis. If I feel like I could have written a fiction book, I usually throw it down in disgust. If I wanted to read something I could write I would just go and read something I have written! I'm not a good writer, so if I've paid $20 for a book, it had better be superior to anything I could do.

I'm no dog behaviour specialist and don't pretend I am, but I know about the evolutionary basis for behaviour, so if someone makes a statement about behaviour that doesn't make evolutionary sense to me, and if I then say why this doesn't make evolutionary sense to me in an effort to invite a better explanation and instead I get told simply that I am wrong, well, yeah. I don't trust people who answer with things like that. Just as an example. ;)

[Are You Serious Jo]

Dogs are a special case because of their co-evolution with humans, you can't make blanket statements about their behaviour and cognition based on evolutionary theory or how a captive lagomorph behaves. I don't have the time to discuss topics on a forum in the same depth I do for papers, I'd rather put that time into actual papers. No one has to read my posts, someone doesn't like them just keep going.

[Vickie]

Could we start again, perhaps? I'll try to remember that people can't read my mind and you can all at least pretend you don't think I'm an academic snob what looks down her nose at everyone. I'm not! I promise. There'd be no point in me posting at all if I was.

Corvus I have never considered your attitude to be snobby in the slightest. In fact if anything I would say it is the opposite.

A while ago, I went through a process of writing a reply to threads & if it was in any way contraversial, I used to save it for a day & then reread before posting it. I found it helped to avoid people misunderstanding me as I quite often made it a little clearer after the second reading. Just a suggestion, but it may help.

[SkySoaringMagpie]

This may make me sound like a total hippy but I think you have to be at peace with yourself, including the parts of your presentation that aren't all that endearing or smooth. No-one on DOL is so perfect that they never make an error of judgment, fact or written expression when they write.

I know that I can come over sounding pompous, I know that while I usually can control the length of my posts, I'm terrible with overly ornate sentence length and construction (like this one ;)).

So I can wind up being unreadable. If I notice I fix it, if I don't notice, well, no-one is going to die because they got bored by one of my posts.