When Choosing A Stud Dog

[atua]

Hi,

I have never bred a litter of dogs before and I have only seen one dog have pups before and that was when I was working in the vet surgery.

I am very soon getting a nice gordon bitch and do have plans on becoming a registered breeder if everything turns out right.

I was wondering how people determine the right stud dog to put over the bitch.

What qualities do you look for?

I will use my Amstaff girl as an example (BTW im not breeding her just using her as a example and she is a pet only)

She is not overly stocky more on the lean athletic type with a lovely topline. She is tall but not too tall at the shoulder for the breed standard. Her movement is nice and free and her eyes are lovely. She has beautiful markings and her temperment is to die for.

If I were to breed her I would look for a stud that had a bit more stockiness to offer, not something overly tall but around the same height as I wouldnt want pups too tall. Temperment would also pay a huge role in the determining the right stud to use. In the amstaffs I guess colour doesnt pay a really big role in the breeding like some dogs such as Labradors etc But would prefer a blue fawn, black and white or blue male with no skin allergies. Also health certificates passed. A title would not matter to me as show titles are pretty easy to gain if really desired. Does all the CH and GR CH on a pedigree mean that the dog is great quality as such?

I am trying to get a better understanding of the whole breeding aspects and how breeders determine certain things so when I get my new girl I will have a good understanding and be alert of different things.

My apoligies if you dont understand this question if you would like me to clarify anything just let me know

I want to make sure I really want to become a breeder before getting my hopes set!

Any advice from breeders more than welcome.

I want to breed to try and better the breed and also have a huge passion for showing so would like to be able to eventually show my homebred dogs. I also would only like to be a small breeder and therefore only breeding when I wanted something for myself or had orders to fill. I dont want to breed for the thrill of just having puppies as I believe that they will be alot of hard work involved not only with the rearing of puppies but also choosing the right dogs to be breed together and then the actual whelping. I am scared at the thought of a dog having puppies as if something went wrong I would feel so guilty. I would also want a contract signed from the purchaser that I get first dibs on buying the dog back if they cant keep it for any reason. Also desexing of pups that are on the limited register with a fee paid back once the puppy has been desexed. I dont want to add to the already load of unwanted dogs. I would also consider starting a breed rescue for my chosen breed. (gordon setters)

As stated advice welcome on both positive and negative points.

BTW I wont be considering breeding for atleast another 2 years but just want to get myself prepared the best as possible as I am considering becoming a breeder therefore I would like to learn all I can in the meantime

[Bokezu]

Hi,

I have never bred a litter of dogs before and I have only seen one dog have pups before and that was when I was working in the vet surgery.

I am very soon getting a nice gordon bitch and do have plans on becoming a registered breeder if everything turns out right.

I was wondering how people determine the right stud dog to put over the bitch.

What qualities do you look for?

I will use my Amstaff girl as an example (BTW im not breeding her just using her as a example and she is a pet only)

She is not overly stocky more on the lean athletic type with a lovely topline. She is tall but not too tall at the shoulder for the breed standard. Her movement is nice and free and her eyes are lovely. She has beautiful markings and her temperment is to die for.

If I were to breed her I would look for a stud that had a bit more stockiness to offer, not something overly tall but around the same height as I wouldnt want pups too tall. Temperment would also pay a huge role in the determining the right stud to use. In the amstaffs I guess colour doesnt pay a really big role in the breeding like some dogs such as Labradors etc But would prefer a blue fawn, black and white or blue male with no skin allergies. Also health certificates passed. A title would not matter to me as show titles are pretty easy to gain if really desired. Does all the CH and GR CH on a pedigree mean that the dog is great quality as such?

I am trying to get a better understanding of the whole breeding aspects and how breeders determine certain things so when I get my new girl I will have a good understanding and be alert of different things.

My apoligies if you dont understand this question if you would like me to clarify anything just let me know

I want to make sure I really want to become a breeder before getting my hopes set!

Any advice from breeders more than welcome.

I want to breed to try and better the breed and also have a huge passion for showing so would like to be able to eventually show my homebred dogs. I also would only like to be a small breeder and therefore only breeding when I wanted something for myself or had orders to fill. I dont want to breed for the thrill of just having puppies as I believe that they will be alot of hard work involved not only with the rearing of puppies but also choosing the right dogs to be breed together and then the actual whelping. I am scared at the thought of a dog having puppies as if something went wrong I would feel so guilty. I would also want a contract signed from the purchaser that I get first dibs on buying the dog back if they cant keep it for any reason. Also desexing of pups that are on the limited register with a fee paid back once the puppy has been desexed. I dont want to add to the already load of unwanted dogs. I would also consider starting a breed rescue for my chosen breed. (gordon setters)

As stated advice welcome on both positive and negative points.

BTW I wont be considering breeding for atleast another 2 years but just want to get myself prepared the best as possible as I am considering becoming a breeder therefore I would like to learn all I can in the meantime

Hi atua

you need to study your chosen breed and have a real passion for the breed. You haven't yet got your chosen breed, and you may or may not develop a passion for them. You need to show for a few years and you will gradually learn what is the right way to go as far as breeding ie what stud to use, what lines you like etc. A mentor from your breed is really needed to give advice, but you do learn a lot from reading, showing and talking to others of your breed. You don't rush into breeding a breed you know nothing about, having said that you can learn a lot in two years, but after 9 years I'm still learning. Good luck

Edited September 4, 2009 by Bokezu

[lappiemum]

The breeder that you get your bitch from needs to be someone that you can discuss suitable lines with down the track (if you do actually do go into breeding). Some lines just don't work with others, so you will need to educate yourself on the lines that your bitch has come from as well as the usual breed info regarding genetics, diseases, phycial attributes, breed standard etc.

Edited September 4, 2009 by lappiemum

[Sandra777]

I was wondering how people determine the right stud dog to put over the bitch.

As a novice breeder I would be totally guided by the breeder of the bitch (and I mean totally) assuming they are reputable breeders Ask them their thought processes as it relates to your specific bitch because then it will have much more meaning than all the hypothetical cases in the world

Her movement is nice and free She has beautiful markings

Lovely - but is it typical of her breed? Avoid the generic-show-dog-movement syndrome because once you start down that path you are lost, breeds move differently because they are made differently.

Her markings are totally irrelevant unless it is a breed where specific markings are part of the breed standard

and her temperment is to die for.

Should have been at the start of the list, not the end. But again, is her temperament typical and standard for her breed? An aloof Afghan is expected, an aloof Amstaff would be abnormal and suspect.

I would look for a stud that had a bit more stockiness to offer, not something overly tall but around the same height as I wouldnt want pups too tall.

I would look for a stud dog that has the correct amount of "stockiness" and be bred to throw this trait Never over-compensate, nature doesn't work like that.

Temperment would also pay a huge role in the determining the right stud to use.

Temperament is paramount

But would prefer a blue fawn, black and white or blue male with no skin allergies.

Sorry, but a colour preference in a breed where no such colour preference exists in the standard is just wrong IMO. The bit about the allergies is good though A breeder can't be influenced by colour at all when choosing a stud dog (talking of acceptable colours only) it's the buyers who have this freedom. Exception - where colours affect the dog in negative ways - merle gene for example.

Also health certificates passed.

Plus as far back into the pedigree as possible if DNA tests aren't available and/or for simple dominant/recessive problems. (example - 0:0 HD score from a pedigree of all way over the breed average is meaningless)

A title would not matter to me as show titles are pretty easy to gain if really desired. Does all the CH and GR CH on a pedigree mean that the dog is great quality as such?

CH may or may not mean much, depends on the breed. GR CH usually means the dog is good quality itself. Neither means the dog is worth breeding from - it could have a terrible temperament/bad allergies/every known recessive gene for disease under the sun/absolutely nothing like it's pedigree (fluke bred, forget it)

I am trying to get a better understanding of the whole breeding aspects and how breeders determine certain things so when I get my new girl I will have a good understanding and be alert of different things.

It will take you many years to get a really good understanding of the whole process, watch and learn and try not form too many opinions.

First step is to decide for yourself what is important to you. This will change over time but you have to start somewhere. Don't be afraid or ashamed of admitting you've learned more and changed your mind. The day we stop learning is the day we should give up living (let alone creating new life!)

Temperament and health should be equal at the top of that list IMO, but after that - what is most important to you about your breed.

If you play the dumb novice for as long as possible some people will tell you the most outrageous lies and you will get a great feel for who's opinion is actually worth having. Don't necessarily listen to the person that talks the most (or advertises the most) - judge deeds and not words

I want to make sure I really want to become a breeder before getting my hopes set!

How well do you cope with disappointment? How well do you cope with overwhealming joy and utter dispair?

Enjoy all your dogs for what they are but be able to differentiate between great companions and great breeding dogs.

Buy the book "born to win breed to succeed".

Edited September 4, 2009 by Sandra777

[tashnchief]

Hi,

I have never bred a litter of dogs before and I have only seen one dog have pups before and that was when I was working in the vet surgery.

I am very soon getting a nice gordon bitch and do have plans on becoming a registered breeder if everything turns out right.

I was wondering how people determine the right stud dog to put over the bitch.

What qualities do you look for?

I will use my Amstaff girl as an example (BTW im not breeding her just using her as a example and she is a pet only)

She is not overly stocky more on the lean athletic type with a lovely topline. She is tall but not too tall at the shoulder for the breed standard. Her movement is nice and free and her eyes are lovely. She has beautiful markings and her temperment is to die for.

If I were to breed her I would look for a stud that had a bit more stockiness to offer, not something overly tall but around the same height as I wouldnt want pups too tall. Temperment would also pay a huge role in the determining the right stud to use. In the amstaffs I guess colour doesnt pay a really big role in the breeding like some dogs such as Labradors etc But would prefer a blue fawn, black and white or blue male with no skin allergies. Also health certificates passed. A title would not matter to me as show titles are pretty easy to gain if really desired. Does all the CH and GR CH on a pedigree mean that the dog is great quality as such?

I am trying to get a better understanding of the whole breeding aspects and how breeders determine certain things so when I get my new girl I will have a good understanding and be alert of different things.

My apoligies if you dont understand this question if you would like me to clarify anything just let me know

I want to make sure I really want to become a breeder before getting my hopes set!

Any advice from breeders more than welcome.

I want to breed to try and better the breed and also have a huge passion for showing so would like to be able to eventually show my homebred dogs. I also would only like to be a small breeder and therefore only breeding when I wanted something for myself or had orders to fill. I dont want to breed for the thrill of just having puppies as I believe that they will be alot of hard work involved not only with the rearing of puppies but also choosing the right dogs to be breed together and then the actual whelping. I am scared at the thought of a dog having puppies as if something went wrong I would feel so guilty. I would also want a contract signed from the purchaser that I get first dibs on buying the dog back if they cant keep it for any reason. Also desexing of pups that are on the limited register with a fee paid back once the puppy has been desexed. I dont want to add to the already load of unwanted dogs. I would also consider starting a breed rescue for my chosen breed. (gordon setters)

As stated advice welcome on both positive and negative points.

BTW I wont be considering breeding for atleast another 2 years but just want to get myself prepared the best as possible as I am considering becoming a breeder therefore I would like to learn all I can in the meantime

i think you are on the right track however the basis for me would be start with the breed standard, don't just read it and memorise it but actually understand it, understand the breeds history, what were they bred for.

The hypothetical you have used for example is very generalised, if you had not mentioned the breed of your example then you could actually be refering to any number of breeds or cross breeds.

Narrow it down - what are the hallmarks of your chosen breed that distinguishes itself from any other breed?

length:height ratio, head planes, ear set, eye set, eye colour, bite, shoulder construction, rear construction, topline - should it be level, straight, sloping, concave, convex, underline, what type of movement, markings, temperament etc??????????

Does your female have strengths and weakness of these hallmarks? How does the stud dogs choices match up to your girls strengths and weaknesses?

What strengths, weaknesses, health, temperament is behind each of these dogs?

Look at the average of that chosen bloodline? If the average is poor rear ends even if the dog himself has a great one then there is a good chance that those poor rears will still come through.

Talk to your breeder, pick there brains about everything they know about the generations behind your girl. Talk to other breeders about there bloodlines both here and overseas.

It is an endless learning curve and even the best laid plans can turn out disasterous. It sounds like your intentions are good, enjoy showing and make the most of learning not only about your breed but dogs anatomy and physiology in general.

[sandgrubber]

In choosing a stud dog for a maiden bitch, when just getting started, unless you're loaded with cash, I'd look for the best dog within a 200 km radius (or an N-hour drive), and let the bitch's breeder advise me about choices. If you have time and money to spare, you can look through the entire list of Gordons in Oz, and check out NZ, and dream about importing frozen semen. But I'd just aim for 'improviing the breed' on the first litter, and go for finding the perfect mate if you're still in the game come the next round. Chilled semen is not that expensive, so if you're a bit more daring you could widen your search to Oz-wide, assuming the stud isn't that far from an airport. Your breeder will know the relatively-local dogs, and it shouldn't be too hard to decide on a very good, if not fantastic, match.

I personally look for a dog that complements what I think could be improved in the bitch, plus .

1) health

2) temperament; and

3) type

and let my selection be affected by any information about how one line goes with another line . . . or how peripotent the dog is.

[atua]

Thank you very much for all the replies. I really appreciate it.

I will definitely get that book recommended.

I do enjoy reading all the information on gordons, breeding, mating, breed standard etc but it isn't really sinking in. I guess it will better when I actually have my girl and know exactly what is in front of me. I do have a general idea. I have read and read on the Gordon setter and have researched them for the last 5 years and decided now is the right time to get one. I was going to get one last year instead of the am-staff but due to living arrangements it would not of been fair on the Gordon as it requires a lot of exercise where as the staffy would be happy to do what I am doing and isn't overly demanding on exercise every day. I was having knee trouble and had just moved from acreage into the city and I had owned a amstaff a few years prior.

I have a good relationship with the breeder and she is totally great and supportive and helps me out with advice and any questions I ask. I would definitely talk to her before breeding on what she recommended me do. Before I breed also I would be asking her opinion on whether her for her honest opinion on the bitch before breeding. If she was not of breeding quality then it would be back to square one. Not all puppies grow into quality dogs and the breeder has assured me of this in which I completely understand. Im not going to hold any grudges if she doesn't turn out to be breeding quality its just luck of the draw.

[Jed]

I'd also recommend "Dogs and How to Breed Them" by Hilary Harmer. Might be worth checking out ebay or Amazon. Should also read everything Roy Burnell has written - "Sporting Dogs" is good, and you may be able to borrow from the library.

Stay close to your breeder, talk to other breeders, ask for advice, weigh it all up. Discuss possible matings with your breeder, mine have always been a wealth of advice. One of my girls is expectng in a few weeks, and my breeder and I discussed this mating for about 12 months before I sent her to the dog. I hope the pups are worth all the talk!! (But I can now blame the breeder if they aren't ).

Also remember that the dog may have a fault, so it's worth looking at his parents and his progeny to see whether he throws it or not - or to see if he throws something he doesn't have. And it does happen.

Breeding is frustrtating, annoying, debilitating, heartbreaking, and expensive, but so rewarding - when it goes right.

[atua]

Thanks Jed, I just bought that book on ebay.

[dancinbcs]

You sound like you are on the right track and have a breeder you can trust to guide you. Your breeder will probably become your best friend for the next few years as you will have many, many questions

The suggestions made so far have been great but one further thing you can do is to try to see as many of your puppies ancestors as possible. even if they are old it is preferable to see them while they are still alive, and if they have passed on, study as many photos and videos as you can get your hands on. Also study as many former "greats" in the breed as you can and when the time comes to look at stud dogs, study the ancestors behind any dog you are considering as well.

Doing this means that when you look at a pedigree you will see "dogs" not just names on a piece of paper. You will start to form an overall picture of the traits that dogs on that pedigree had and understand if the dog you are looking at is typical of his lines or a fluke. You will hopefully also develop an "eye" for the breed where you will know immedately, when you look at a dog, if it is what typifies the breed to you.

Good luck with joining the ranks as a breeder.

[Dogsfevr]

My suggestion would be.

Forget thinking about breeding at present & spend your time learning about grooming & what it requires to maintain a gordie coat(unless your a good groomer already).

If your not offay with grooming start your time & effort there.

Once you have started to master the art & understand your bitches faults you can start looking at males.

remember though gordies are slow matures.

Google.try & attend gordon specialities either in NSW or Vic to see what is there.

Research your girls pedigree so you understand what dogs are there through the generations.

Looking at photos try & see what faults stand out through the lines also barring in mind it could be poor grooming.

Its great your wanting to learn now but sometimes its best to master the other things first & those basics are needed to teach new pet owners who may want to show & ask you for advice or assistance.

As already said your breeder is the one who will now there lines,health results & who is DNA tested for colour etc etc

[atua]

Hi showdog,

I am actually a full time dog groomer. There will be a few things I need to learn on the grooming side but have full support of the breeder.

I guess I am extremely lucky to find such a caring breeder that isnt just going to leave me in the lurch with my new puppy.

I have heard it can take up to 2 years for a gordons coat to mature and reach its full potential.

By maturity did you mean like a lab? How they are like a puppy until they are 3 years old???? I did not know that actually. I have read that they are a very intelligent dog that loves exercise and will learn from just watching. They can also be very stubborn and can try to push boundaries so the rules for the future are the rules from day one.(just like any other dog).

If you meant the above, could you please clarify with me what you mean.... What to expect and what they are likely to do?

Thanks again guys

[Dogsfevr]

I have heard it can take up to 2 years for a gordons coat to mature and reach its full potential.

Gordies arent in full coat until 5/6 yrs even older.At 2 years they still have very little coat.

My boy is just about 18 months & has a big coat for his age but in relation to the other setters he looks naked.

His dad for example is just starting his big career at 7 & just hit prime coat.

Gordons havent fully developed until 3 yrs & even then arent in there prime ,they are a very slow to mature & finish growing.

Showing a gordon means patience because they are very very slow to mature & be in true bloom

[Kaffy Magee]

Was doing a search for past topics and happen to come across this thread. Just so happens I was looking at Atuas website the otherday after seeing an add for an

IMPRESSIVE 42.5KG 2 year old blue and white male. Available for stud duties to approved bitches only. Please contact for more details on this boy.

Zeus is ONE IMPRESSIVE BOY. This dog never ceases to amaze me. He has the most outgoing nature, very loving and affectionate. He is a perfect obedience dog and gets along with all other dogs entire males included. He is a perfect dog for any breeding program as he has so much to offer. STUD FEE $250

Funny how she said she wasnt breeding her pet amstaff bitch yet had a litter in November from her and has pups on "that" site with the heading "make an offer". Next litter is due mid 2010. All I have to say to who ever she is getting her gordon setter from might want to do a bit more research.

[EISHUND]

Funny how she said she wasnt breeding her pet amstaff bitch yet had a litter in November from her and has pups on "that" site with the heading "make an offer". Next litter is due mid 2010. All I have to say to who ever she is getting her gordon setter from might want to do a bit more research.

Don't know why i used the surprised face, so much on DOL doesn't surprise me anymore.

eta: so, is this Atua a registered breeder? Or a backyardy? No mention on DOL ever about breeding Amstaffs. ;)

Edited January 24, 2010 by LuvMyWhiteShep

[Kaffy Magee]

Heres the website you can decide for yourself

http://icetago.webs.com/

[SparkyTansy]

it said that their son was into obedience and showing :p as far as I can tell, there is nothing to say they AREN'T members of their controlling body and that they are registered... they appear to health test and surely not registering amstaffs is a bit of a stupid thing to do anyway?

[Rebanne]

Heres the website you can decide for yourself

http://icetago.webs.com/

hmmm very enlightening

[Kaffy Magee]

Sparky Tansy, I could say all those things too and not actually do them. If it were me I'd want to back up my claim and show that I do these things. My website has pedigrees and pedigree names, for starters, health test results, show results and plenty of photos, show ones included. I dont know maybe she isnt website savvy. Oh and plenty of people breed amstaffs with no papers

My point of the post was that she has claimed not only in this post but others that she's not a breeder, doesnt know about breeding and not once mentioned she was breeding her amstaff and then she makes this post right about the time she would have mated or be about to mate her bitch. And admits she's just a pet. I'd say it wasnt an accident as she has another litter planned for her very next season.

Either way I just thought that maybe whoever she is buying her Gordon setter puppy from might like to do a bit more research and just may possibly read this thread.

[angelsun]

I've never been able to open the site as it keeps freezing...is everyone sure that this site does in fact belong to this poster? I'd hate to see a witch hunt started based on an assumption.