How Would You Handle A Dog That Dislikes Being Told Off?

[Tonymc]

I agree with Nekhbet and Vickie.

Corvus as usual your all over the place like a Calf with scours. Yes the humanising is there for sure.Till you drop that very little awareness will be gained. Tony

[Mym]

I don't think you have to be cruel to a dog to get it to do things it doesn't like. Mostly I think it's more cruel to let them dictate what they will & won't do. They end up confused about the mixed signals they get & a confused dog is an unhappy dog. That to me is cruel.

And pounds are full of dogs getting PTS as having problems when really they never learned the rules. Good post Vickie.

If you were driving a car and didn't know the rules of the road, you would be a liability. Same goes for doggas.

[corvus]

He's a pretty laid back dog and he has a sweet temperament, but if you gruff at him for doing something naughty he will grumble back, and sometimes he'll bark at you.

Personally I wouldn't assume that the dog knows it's been 'naughty' and has any idea what you're on about

I never made that assumption. It's just an observation. Tell him off and he grumbles. Sometimes it goes like this "Pyry, get out of that litter tray!" "Roo-oo. Ruff grrrooo." as he shuffles away. He might then stand in the middle of the kitchen and bark as loud as he can and gets told "Oh, cut that out." to which he replies with a couple of whines and goes quiet. He's the smartest dog I know. If any dog knew what they were being gruffed at over it would be him, but it doesn't matter whether he knows or not. It's how he responds that I was talking about.

[jesomil]

Great post about the nails Vickie. I have never thought about it that way, but its so true!! Its a very good way of showing the real relationship between a dog and owner.

Corvus as usual your all over the place like a Calf with scours.

[The Spotted Devil]

He's a pretty laid back dog and he has a sweet temperament, but if you gruff at him for doing something naughty he will grumble back, and sometimes he'll bark at you.

Personally I wouldn't assume that the dog knows it's been 'naughty' and has any idea what you're on about

I never made that assumption. It's just an observation. Tell him off and he grumbles. Sometimes it goes like this "Pyry, get out of that litter tray!" "Roo-oo. Ruff grrrooo." as he shuffles away. He might then stand in the middle of the kitchen and bark as loud as he can and gets told "Oh, cut that out." to which he replies with a couple of whines and goes quiet. He's the smartest dog I know. If any dog knew what they were being gruffed at over it would be him, but it doesn't matter whether he knows or not. It's how he responds that I was talking about.

I suppose that's my point though - if he doesn't know and you're just making noises at him (in his opinion) I can understand that he would make noises back - frustration even?

[Mym]

Hey Corvus, I understood what you were saying. I guess the point is that what starts as a rumble from a dog that is a bit uppity may become a bigger problem down the track. And at least you are seeking advice, which is more than many do.

My boy had/has a combination of fear aggression and a massive need to dominate. No way was his old owner ever going to deal with it though. Needless to say we have had a path and a half laid out for us and basically, the rules are the rules, never harshly given but it really requires consistent effort and basically, your gut will tell you that he is trying it on - let him and he will keep trying to control the situation.

This will only escalate as he matures and that is how I ended up with my young dog. He launched at a child and totally ignored any direction from his owners.

Lol...you can imagine that for a dog with this personality, they are going to be narky when told off. It may just be what you love about him in the end but it has the capability to become a downward spiral.

Good Luck.

[corvus]

This works. This doesn't.

That was pleasant, I am more likely to do it again.

That was unpleasant, I am less likely to do it again.

That behaviour was accepted, this was not.

Don't be sad for me. All I aim for is consistency with my dogs. I try to treat them in a consistent manner & I feel they are pretty consistent in return. I am not cruel to them, but I expect them to obey the commands I have taught them. I cannot imagine any of them biting me because of something I do to them as I will never force them to do something unpleasant just for the sake of it, but sometimes unpleasant things are a necessity. Believe it or not mine are all quite obedient and incredibly motivated to train with me...so please...don't be sad for me! You can't force a dog to be motivated & enjoy training. Motivation comes with consistency and a solid reward history. Black & white. This works, this doesn't.

And that's exactly how it works for ANY animal. Not just dogs. I am thoroughly bewildered why I can say this over and over again and still have people think I humanise dogs, but someone else says it and gets applauded. Vickie, I'm not sad for you because I agree with you and always have. I don't know how I manage to get so misunderstood.

1. All my animals have to cope with unpleasant things sometimes.

2. They do not get out of it if they don't like it.

3. If I can work them up to it gently I certainly will. Why wouldn't I?

4. If I don't have the option to work them up to it I just do it and wear whatever happens. With a hare, that can be an animal that has become so frightened they have injured themselves and won't be interested in coming near me for another week. Perhaps you can understand why I like dogs?

5. They can talk back all they like as it won't make a difference to what they are expected to do whether they like it or not.

Now can we accept that my dogs do actually have boundaries and rules and move on to answer the question (thanks to those that did)?

Perhaps I seem all over the place because I have two wildly different kinds of animals living with me: predator and prey, wild and domestic. I think it's pretty awesome that I can approach them all with much the same basic rules and when I talk about how I relate to my animals I am talking about those basic rules which are essentially what Vickie has said above, but I'm coloured by what I can reasonably expect from each one. I could never expect my hare to handle what my dogs are expected to handle, and every time I do something with him I have to ask myself "Is it really necessary that we do this? How would the overall benefits to him weigh up against the risks to him or his fragile trust in me? If I have misjudged, how bad could it get? What is his mood like today and is it conducive to what I want to do?" I don't know about anyone else, but I cannot go through life like that with one animal and not find myself asking far more questions than I normally would for my other animals that don't actually need that scrutiny.

I very much like my relationship with my hare. I can do horrifying things to him and he'll still come back and nuzzle my fingers eventually even though he's not an affectionate creature by nature and he's rather prone to learning that something is terrifying from one experience. Because I very much like my relationship with my hare and have got into habits with him, it all rubs off on the way I work with my other animals. I am thoroughly comfortable with this because it's been an interesting learning experience. I know how a hare and a dog are similar and how a hare and a dog are very different. I know how a hare and a rabbit are similar and how they are different. It's as easy as breathing and I wish that people who haven't trained dogs and rabbits and hares using the same methods would stop telling me that dogs are somehow different to every other animal. They are not, but there is a layer of social complexity that is not there with rabbits and hares, just as with a hare there is an extra layer of sub-conscious communication that you must never discount. All things you learn from experience, which is why I don't bother mentioning them because who here is really interested in the subtleties of working with a wild prey animal and who here doesn't know there's a layer of social complexity to training with a dog? It's freaking obvious that different species behave in different ways, but it's also very basic stuff that all animals learn the same way. I can't quite believe that it's apparently such a difficult concept for some people that are great dog trainers.

[Vickie]

OK I'm going to try again...

I'm curious to know how other people would handle a dog that talks back?

If I had a dog that talked back I would be re-evaluating my everyday interactions with that dog. If it is talking back then it thinks my commands are optional. If it is talking back, then it is not complying. In general I do have that "it's my way or the highway" mentality that saddens you so much. If I call my dog, it will come, if it doesn't, I will go & get it. If I ask it to go into the crate, it does, if it does not, I will go put it in. I find my dogs rarely question me because all our history says that it gets them nowhere.

Or for that matter, a puppy that doesn't give up on making lots of growly noises and flailing until it's flailed as violently and loudly as it can and maybe even tried to bite you. For myself, I try to avoid battles of will, but if I stupidly walk right into one I pretend like nothing is happening while the tantrum or talking back is going on and wait for everything to calm down, then continue with whatever course of action I had set out upon beforehand.

I am the opposite, I don't avoid battles of will, but face them as they (inevitably) come up with a puppy. They are an opportunity to set the scene & establish the way things will be. Biting is NEVER tolerated & will be corrected.

I will never forget trying to pull a puppy out from behind a chair and ending up having to pin him down very hard so he couldn't bite me because he got very angry and wanted to do just that. .

This is an example of where I see you humanising. A puppy hiding under a chair is generally showing fear, not anger. They don't "want" to bite you as a premeditated thing. When a dog is scared they have 2 options, flight or fight. If they are cornered and have nowhere else to go, some will fight as their flight option does not exist anymore. I see this bite as an instinctual reaction at self preservation, not a planned "if the person comes closer, I want to bite them."

I've decided it's best not to go there at all if you can help it.

Again, I think it's better to go there. In this situation I would calmly reach in & take the puppy & hold it firmly & securely until it relaxed. Then I would go there again, put it down & give it another opportunity to go under the chair again. I would continue to do this until the puppy knew that no harm would come to it in my arms. The important thing for me here is that if my dogs are ever scared, I want them coming to me rather than fleeing. All 4 of my current dogs do this, at different times they have all reacted with fear to various things & their first response is always to come to me & sit beside me. That is exactly how I want it.

I am not the best dog trainer in the world, I have certainly had problems with dogs in the past and I am sure I will have problems in the future. But I do feel that my current ideals work for me & my dogs. As I said before, if you are happy with your ideals, then stick to them...but although your questions are always posed as theoreticals, I always sense you are questioning whether what you are doing is working.

Edited September 3, 2009 by Vickie

[Teebs]

I have one that talks back, well, she talks all the time. If i tell her off for something she has a grumble, but seeing she talks all the time anyways, i have never thought of it as a bad thing, she still does what she is told, just talks while doing it

I tell her to goto bed and she sits in there woo wooing

At least she does what she is told, Atlas doesnt talk, and only does what he wants to do, rather the one that backchats and does what she is told

As for nails, Kaos has never had hers done, never needed to, I used to be able to do Ats, but when he got his dew claws removed the vets stuffed up pretty bad and he now has a fear of his feet being handled. I can file them, but can not cut them, i also dont have the confidence to cut nails, if i did i think i would be able to do his - He puts up a fight and is too strong for me, but he gets muzzled and put against a wall, last time he did it he actually sat there wagging his tail and let the guy cut them, much improvement after the first time when it took forever to get them done!

[corvus]

OK I'm going to try again...

I'm curious to know how other people would handle a dog that talks back?

In general I do have that "it's my way or the highway" mentality that saddens you so much. If I call my dog, it will come, if it doesn't, I will go & get it. If I ask it to go into the crate, it does, if it does not, I will go put it in. I find my dogs rarely question me because all our history says that it gets them nowhere.

No you don't, because you already said you don't do things that your dog would bite you for. That's what I'm getting at. It seems silly to me to deliberately do things that are likely to push your dog over the edge. I go about things the same way you do with ALL my animals because they haveta learn that when I say we're doing something it's inevitable that we'll do it one way or another. But that doesn't mean I'll provoke a bite just to be pig-headed about it, or make no effort to turn it into a good thing first. There are times when you have the luxury to desensitise and build them up and I am happier doing that when I can.

I will never forget trying to pull a puppy out from behind a chair and ending up having to pin him down very hard so he couldn't bite me because he got very angry and wanted to do just that. .

This is an example of where I see you humanising. A puppy hiding under a chair is generally showing fear, not anger. They don't "want" to bite you as a premeditated thing. When a dog is scared they have 2 options, flight or fight. If they are cornered and have nowhere else to go, some will fight as their flight option does not exist anymore. I see this bite as an instinctual reaction at self preservation, not a planned "if the person comes closer, I want to bite them."

Okay, fair enough. That was a poor choice of words. He was frightened and I am aware of that, but Kivi in the same situation would have cried. This dog bit. Erik would probably bite, but I would have got more warning. This puppy grew into a dog with a low bite threshold and a deep distrust of anything new. I'd be pretty surprised if Erik went the same way because he doesn't have the same mix of character traits, for lack of a less human term. All the same, I'm not going to mess around provoking him when I saw how that puppy turned out. I don't think putting him in a situation where he felt he needed to bite was good for him in the long run.

I've decided it's best not to go there at all if you can help it.

Again, I think it's better to go there. In this situation I would calmly reach in & take the puppy & hold it firmly & securely until it relaxed. Then I would go there again, put it down & give it another opportunity to go under the chair again. I would continue to do this until the puppy knew that no harm would come to it in my arms.

Interestingly, this is pretty much what I'm doing with Erik now except that I'm keeping it low key and working up. Lots of handling, lots of experiencing things he's not entirely comfortable with and building him up to being very comfortable with being handled. I do that with all my new animals. It's not particularly troublesome with Erik because he's more tolerant of human handling than being pinned by a giant fluff monster, but I'm just taking things easy after this other puppy. I have never met another dog like him and he was a good example of how something can work quite well on most dogs but just make things worse for others.

I'm too frightened of asking for help on this forum! Look what happens when I invite a discussion. I just like knowing how other people handle things and why. It's always healthy to have other viewpoints, so thanks for offering yours.

Teebs, Penny was a talker, too. She'd grumble about something if she didn't like it, but she'd do it anyway and I'd never have to ask more than once. My mother's Vallhund is similar, but more vocal. He barks about most things.

[huski]

I'm too frightened of asking for help on this forum! Look what happens when I invite a discussion.

I think anyone would be too frightened to give you advice, Corvus, you'd argue with them the entire time

[Staff'n'Toller]

FWIW I think I'd sit back and watch him for a while.

You've just brought a new pup into your environment who is obviously fairly used to lording it over all his other siblings. With time he will learn it doesn't work with Kivi and it doesn't work with his new humans either.

But my experience tells me it's not always the best way to ignore backchatting, and other behaviours. As others have mentioned he may learn that he does in fact get the last word if he finds it self rewarding and no aversive comes of it. Would I be applying -R? Probably not...time outs yep maybe. I think if it continues closer to 'puppy licence revoking time' then you need to work out how to communicate it's unasseptable.

Mel.

Edited September 3, 2009 by Staff'n'Toller

[corvus]

I'm too frightened of asking for help on this forum! Look what happens when I invite a discussion.

I think anyone would be too frightened to give you advice, Corvus, you'd argue with them the entire time

Oh, I think they'd be delighted for the opportunity to tell me what they think I'm doing wrong. I mean, I ask for people to share how they do things and they tell me what I'm doing wrong. It's second nature.

Kivi mostly ignores Erik's transgressions. I was watching this morning as Erik was walking around underneath Kivi and jumping up and grabbing his belly fur and playing noisy games of tug with it. Clearly uncomfortable for Kivi! Kivi largely ignored it and just lay under the deck where Erik couldn't do things like that.

Is it really such a big deal if a dog feels they need to have the last word? As long as they actually do what they are told when they are asked, why would it matter if they grumble about it? Growling is another thing because it's a warning of aggression, but barking or muttering never amount to anything in my experience so far.

[Mym]

Think it is a really big deal if a dog thinks it can have the last word. What is the difference between a grumble and a growl? Probably about six months.

Edited September 4, 2009 by Mym

[Kelpie-i]

2 Words.....RULES & BOUNDARIES!

Give Kivi a break and step in to take control of the situation.

[corvus]

Well, my corgi grumbled for 13 1/2 years and never once growled at me. Maybe for some dogs there's little difference, but for that dog there was a huge difference.

Kivi does get a break - Erik is currently in the pen because it was getting a little rowdy. But at the same time, if I'm the only one that ever tells Erik that he's hurting Kivi or that their play is too rough, what happens when I'm not around? They aren't together without supervision at the moment as Erik is small, but what happens when they do get together without supervision? And what happens when they're having a rowdy bite fest and I stick my hand in the middle? I've done it twice already and gotten a good sense of how hard they bite one another. Not that hard, but too hard for the comfort of my hands. How would you step in? Would you expect stepping in regularly at this early stage would teach Erik to stop being stroppy in general?

[persephone]

And what happens when they're having a rowdy bite fest and I stick my hand in the middle? I've done it twice already

and why would you do that???

If you think things are getting out of hand- then a cup of water tipped over them may be safer!or a loud noise

I prefer to not engage the pointy ends of dogs/pups!

[~*Shell*~]

Kivi mostly ignores Erik's transgressions. I was watching this morning as Erik was walking around underneath Kivi and jumping up and grabbing his belly fur and playing noisy games of tug with it. Clearly uncomfortable for Kivi! Kivi largely ignored it and just lay under the deck where Erik couldn't do things like that.

Is it really such a big deal if a dog feels they need to have the last word? As long as they actually do what they are told when they are asked, why would it matter if they grumble about it? Growling is another thing because it's a warning of aggression, but barking or muttering never amount to anything in my experience so far.

Kivi is a very easy going dog and dogs will allow puppies to get away with things they would not let an adult dog get away with. For example - when Zero first met the then I think 12 week old Ahsoka, he growled at her because she was jumping on him and so she turned around and barked at him and that was the end of it. He went and lay down and when she wanted to play with him, he would let her. The 14 month old Ahsoka barks at Zero and she gets a loud, grumbly bark back off him or a "woo woo" from him if it's at a distance and if she doesn't quieten down, he will go and stand right next to her with his head up and tail curled tightly over his body in a very dominant stance. For this he gets an "arrrr" from me because he knows he's allowed to tell her off verbally but posturing is something I don't allow. Even in his most dog aggressive state, Zero would not go after puppies - I've heard that it's hardwired into their brain to not physically hurt puppies (obviously there are exceptions to this with dogs who have learned certain behaviours) though I haven't read any research on it yet - and even now, I can trust that he won't do anything more than a growl to tell them that their behaviour isn't wanted.

Again, I can only use Zero as an example because Danika never did anything like what Zero does but Zero having the last word never gets me anywhere - if i start letting up on the rules in any way at home, he starts pushing the boundaries more and with a big dog who has a lot of force behind him, that can mean a lot of problems. Usually his grumblings over something start at a bark, or a whine and then become something more. For example, he knows he's not allowed up on the couch till he's invited and when he gets told to get down, he has to. For a while he would get off to couch reluctantly and then turn around and whine at me, that became a bark and then that became him not getting off the couch when he was told. Luckily I had the trump card for that and was able to get him off quite easily when i wanted to so he quickly learnt that behaving meant time on the couch, not behaving meant he stayed on the floor. I'm sure there are a lot of dogs that will grumble and it won't go any further than that but it's not something I can let Zero get away with because it leads to other problems at home.

BTW - I will get back you about your PM, I just haven't had time to read it properly yet.

[OSoSwift]

Think it is a really big deal if a dog thinks it can have the last word. What is the difference between a grumble and a growl? Probably about six months.

I have to agree a little with that one.

Talking is okay with me, barking at me if I ask them to do something they don't want, is not!

Our Stafford never shuts up, but he has never growled, grumped or barked if he has been told off or stopped from doing something he was enjoying that I didn't want him to. If he did he would be frog marched to the dog run.

[corvus]

Again, I can only use Zero as an example because Danika never did anything like what Zero does but Zero having the last word never gets me anywhere - if i start letting up on the rules in any way at home, he starts pushing the boundaries more and with a big dog who has a lot of force behind him, that can mean a lot of problems. Usually his grumblings over something start at a bark, or a whine and then become something more. For example, he knows he's not allowed up on the couch till he's invited and when he gets told to get down, he has to. For a while he would get off to couch reluctantly and then turn around and whine at me, that became a bark and then that became him not getting off the couch when he was told. Luckily I had the trump card for that and was able to get him off quite easily when i wanted to so he quickly learnt that behaving meant time on the couch, not behaving meant he stayed on the floor. I'm sure there are a lot of dogs that will grumble and it won't go any further than that but it's not something I can let Zero get away with because it leads to other problems at home.

I can accept that, but my thing is, Penny grumbled about things she really didn't want to do for most of her life and it never did go further. Given that every dog is a little different, where's the harm in playing it by ear? If you are clued into your dog, like Shell is, you can see where things are starting to go awry and change the rules if you have to. I personally found it very useful that Penny felt she could grumble at me without being told off. It was especially good when she was getting old and I had to learn what new things bothered her that didn't before. I'd rather keep it if it never escalates.

I can see why people would rather just have their rules set in stone from the start and make them rules that would be suitable for the worst case scenario when it comes to dog personalities. That's fine if that's what you want to do. It makes good sense. It's not really what I want to do, though, because if I enforce a rule now with Erik, I have to do something aversive to him. I've had him for a week. I'm really not interested in introducing aversives so early in the relationship if I can avoid it. I'm not interested in introducing aversives at all if I can avoid it. At this point, I can avoid it with desensitisation. So I will. If it blows up in my face at some point, then I'll have to deal with that. Which I will. I'm far from perfect and I often make mistakes that I have to fix later. No big deal. If I make a right cock-up of it, then I'll get professional help to fix it and learn a damn good lesson from it.

While I very much appreciate the value of consistency (it's the key to the relationship I have with my hare that I like so much), I appreciate even more the usefulness of being able to shape a behaviour to make it easier on an animal to succeed. Desensitising is a lot like shaping. It makes perfect sense to me to shape an animal's behaviour to fall in with a rule I want around my house rather than demand the line be toed when my animal doesn't actually know where that line is yet and will consistently step over it and need to be punished. I would rather come at it from the other end and gradually teach my animal what I want them to be doing and then just ignore it when they step over the line. As long as it's not self-rewarding, it will fade away. Erik is really fast at this. He's already abandoned jumping up and down and barking at me while I'm preparing his meals because it did nothing whereas sitting quietly earned him early tastes of his coming meal. In time that will fade out and he will sit politely without rewards until his meal is ready the way Kivi does. Kivi was much slower to learn this than Erik is, but much of it was my fault for not rewarding Kivi's good behaviour well enough early.

I think that the fact that I change the rules sometimes is sloppy training on my part and if I were more experienced I wouldn't need to change them as much. However, I'm thoroughly comfortable with defining rules through rewards when the correct behaviour is practiced rather than punishment when the line is crossed and spend a little time training it before I declare it a rule. My punishments are ineffectual anyway because I'm not that great at judging how strong it should be, my timing isn't brilliant, and I often misjudge how it will be received. I'm also thoroughly comfortable with using this as a way to shape behaviour to fall in with my rules over time and I don't think that this is confusing for dogs PROVIDED I don't let any one phase hang around for long enough to become a habit. If I'm better at that then punishments, I will naturally stick with shaping with rewards and the rules can come once the behaviour I want is already habit.