How Would You Handle A Dog That Dislikes Being Told Off?

[Aidan]

Punishment, reward, negative reinforcement and positive reinforcement are very specific learning theory concepts and easily confused.

Too right jdavis, someone on this forum was trying to tell me that extinction training is part of the reinforcement quadrant schedule..............never mind!

Are you referring to me here? http://www.dolforums.com.au/index.php?show...75380&st=60

I'm not sure what you think "extinction" refers to, but it has a very specific technical definition which sets it apart from punishment. Any behavioural science text-book will verify this.

Here is a plain english article aimed at dog trainers written by a board certified behaviour analyst that you might find interesting:

http://www.animalbehavioranswers.com/id117.html

Edited September 7, 2009 by Aidan

[Staranais]

;) I hate the quadrants. And useless, vague criticisms from jdavis. ;)

I've read so many damn descriptions of those quadrants and I still get them mixed up. That's why I try to stick to "rewards" and "punishment" as much as possible. :p I suspect sometimes I forget that it can't really be anything until there's a measurable change in the behaviour of the animal.

I don't really like them either. They're sometimes useful when talking to other trainers, but I don't for a minute think they reflect how dogs actually think about things. I'm pretty sure my pup just rates consequences on a single sliding scale of nice to nasty. Whether we're removing or adding reinforcers or punishers to the situation is something I doubt ever enters her little head.

That's why I get a little annoyed when people (no one here) claim that aversives or punishments (P+) are somehow worse than removing access to rewards from a dog (P-). I can think of multiple P- that I could give my dog that would be more frustrating or upsetting to her than many P+ I could give. So by refusing to use P+, I'm not necessarily being any kinder to my dog than a trainer who uses all four quadrants.

JMO.

Edited September 7, 2009 by Staranais

[Are You Serious Jo]

;) I hate the quadrants. And useless, vague criticisms from jdavis. ;)

I save the detailed critiques for work, besides, I can't really make head nor tail of your posts, I don't have enough time to try to decipher them then go on to talk about concepts ;) My poor old brain hurts :p

[jaybeece]

This thread makes my brain hurt ;)

[Kelpie-i]

Are you referring to me here? http://www.dolforums.com.au/index.php?show...75380&st=60

Yes I was Aiden

The very link you provided, is exactly what I was getting at:

Extinction is a process through which the rate of a behavior decreases because a reinforcer that has been delivered in connection with that behavior is no longer delivered. In other words, a behavior is reinforced for some period of time and its rate increases or stays stable, but then the reinforcer stops being delivered when the behavior happens so the rate of the behavior diminishes. In the extinction process the behavior declines because the reinforcer is no longer delivered when the behavior happens. The reinforcer and the behavior no longer have that contingent relationship.

Extinction is a process and the result that occurs due to the fact that the reinforcer is no longer being delivered. The delivery of the reinforcer which increases behaviour is known as R+ which is 1 fourth of the quadrant. In order for the behaviour to become extinct or lessen you can use the opposite of R+ which is P-.

Re-read the link and you will see that she mentions Extinction as a process, not a reinforcement quadrant, so I am really not understanding your argument Aiden.

Anyway, as many here have pointed out, quadrants are boring and not everyone is interested in the learning theory, therefore unless you are consciously thinking about the type of reinforcement or punishment you are using and the result it is achieving, it really doesn't matter. As long as the desired result is achieved.

Perhaps you could start a new thread on the topic where other trainers here can provide their views.

[Aidan]

Re-read the link and you will see that she mentions Extinction as a process, not a reinforcement quadrant, so I am really not understanding your argument Aiden

I have never referred to extinction as a reinforcement quadrant. I have continued this discussion here:

http://www.dolforums.com.au/index.php?showtopic=176397