How Would You Handle A Dog That Dislikes Being Told Off?

[huski]

I can see why people would rather just have their rules set in stone from the start and make them rules that would be suitable for the worst case scenario when it comes to dog personalities. That's fine if that's what you want to do. It makes good sense. It's not really what I want to do, though, because if I enforce a rule now with Erik, I have to do something aversive to him. I've had him for a week. I'm really not interested in introducing aversives so early in the relationship if I can avoid it. I'm not interested in introducing aversives at all if I can avoid it. At this point, I can avoid it with desensitisation. So I will. If it blows up in my face at some point, then I'll have to deal with that. Which I will. I'm far from perfect and I often make mistakes that I have to fix later. No big deal. If I make a right cock-up of it, then I'll get professional help to fix it and learn a damn good lesson from it.

Corvus, why does enforcing rules and boundaries have to involve aversives? The removal of a reward is probably all I'd do with a pup Erik's age.

I'm a little surprised you think that anyone who sets rules with their pups have to do so with punishment/aversives What punishment or aversives do you think you'd have to use to teach or enforce rules with Erik?

Edited September 5, 2009 by huski

[Staff'n'Toller]

You will probaby be fine if all you want are dogs that live in the house with you, go for walks nicely on the lead and recall at the park.

A lot of us have our dogs in classes with us or do more than one performance sport. If you want anything other than house dogs you WILL have problems only using the +R quarter of the quadrant.

I'm not sure whether you actually would use a dog behaviour professional if you stuffed up because I have seen you express the fact that none knows learning theory as well as you do.

I think you woud find if you could be more concise you may realise most people here share the same training ideals as you do, it's just that it takes too long to read paras and paras of what could be said in half the amount of words.

[corvus]

Well, I'm a little confused as well, huski.

I got the impression from the "enforce boundaries and do not tolerate" message that people must use aversives on their puppies. Holding a puppy down until they stop fighting is an aversive. When I think "enforce" I think there must be consequences if the line is crossed, seeing as the very word "enforce" comes from "force", which means to compel against resistance, but in my household the consequences for crossing a line is no reward, which I was thinking is a bit different to forcing a dog to do something it doesn't want to. Furthermore, it has been said that dogs just have to accept that some things are unpleasant, and it is aversive for a puppy to endure something he doesn't like. It's aversive for an adult dog to endure something it doesn't like. Things dogs don't like are aversive to dogs.

Having said all that, I do use R- with puppies when they are too bitey, which I guess is aversive, but I hadn't really considered it "enforcing" a rule due to my understanding of the word "enforce". But none of that really matters as my question was not specifically about puppies or whether aversives should be used with them. I was more interested to hear how other people handle puppies or dogs that throw noisy, bitey tantrums that escalate if they don't get what they want or talk back.

If I were to put Erik in a situation he felt uncomfortable enough about to have a growly fest and try to bite me, it's already aversive before I even try to teach him that kind of thing doesn't run with me (which I would do by holding him still until he got over it - also aversive). I don't know how I could tackle a growly bitey puppy without aversives. You can't just ignore them when they're hurting you. You can put them down and walk away, but then you've just taught them that growling and biting works. This is why I would rather avoid getting myself into the situation in the first place by working Erik up to accepting things he doesn't like much right now. I would say my current method is a wee bit aversive because sometimes Erik starts squirming, but if I had a pup that was more shy I could do it without any aversives.

[corvus]

I'm not sure whether you actually would use a dog behaviour professional if you stuffed up because I have seen you express the fact that none knows learning theory as well as you do.

I never! I expressed my distrust of behaviourists that don't know as much as I do. There's a difference. Would you trust a behaviourist that didn't know as much as you did?

You might notice my first post was not that long. I find I constantly have to expand to cover every freaking eventuality or I get nailed. And yes, people here do often agree with me. It just takes 3 pages of long posts with me covering every freaking evenutality to establish that. I already knew that!!! I don't want to write long posts. I'd be happy if people just answered my questions without provoking me to explain myself in great detail. ;)

[persephone]

Aahh, the stumbling block of communicating via the written word ..and , in particular, conversing via the written word !

[huski]

Well, I'm a little confused as well, huski.

I got the impression from the "enforce boundaries and do not tolerate" message that people must use aversives on their puppies. Holding a puppy down until they stop fighting is an aversive. When I think "enforce" I think there must be consequences if the line is crossed, seeing as the very word "enforce" comes from "force", which means to compel against resistance, but in my household the consequences for crossing a line is no reward, which I was thinking is a bit different to forcing a dog to do something it doesn't want to. Furthermore, it has been said that dogs just have to accept that some things are unpleasant, and it is aversive for a puppy to endure something he doesn't like. It's aversive for an adult dog to endure something it doesn't like. Things dogs don't like are aversive to dogs.

It was you who said that if you were to teach Erik the rules, that would mean using aversive methods. It worries me to think that you are avoiding being consistent, and teaching him the rules and yes, enforcing them (i.e. teaching him that he can't win with undesirable behaviour, even if it's as simple as removing what he wants) because you think doing so would have to involve aversives.

Having said all that, I do use R- with puppies when they are too bitey, which I guess is aversive, but I hadn't really considered it "enforcing" a rule due to my understanding of the word "enforce". But none of that really matters as my question was not specifically about puppies or whether aversives should be used with them. I was more interested to hear how other people handle puppies or dogs that throw noisy, bitey tantrums that escalate if they don't get what they want or talk back.

If the puppy is anything like the two shit heads I've had then consistency is the key - you give than an inch and they will take a mile. If the pup develops bad habits they will only be harder to break the longer you let him get away with them. Shitheads are smart and they will take advantage of you if you allow them to.

If I were to put Erik in a situation he felt uncomfortable enough about to have a growly fest and try to bite me, it's already aversive before I even try to teach him that kind of thing doesn't run with me (which I would do by holding him still until he got over it - also aversive). I don't know how I could tackle a growly bitey puppy without aversives. You can't just ignore them when they're hurting you. You can put them down and walk away, but then you've just taught them that growling and biting works. This is why I would rather avoid getting myself into the situation in the first place by working Erik up to accepting things he doesn't like much right now. I would say my current method is a wee bit aversive because sometimes Erik starts squirming, but if I had a pup that was more shy I could do it without any aversives.

Of course dogs have to accept things that can be unpleasant. Such is life. Daisy hates having her ears cleaned, and her nails trimmed, but she will sit there while I do it and she will tolerate it. You say you're not interested in introducing aversives ever if you can avoid it, but realistically, I don't see it as something that can be avoided. The other day at the vet Daisy had to have a thermometer put up her bum - I can guarantee you she didn't like it but she tolerated it just like she does when I trim her nails or clean her ears. These things are inevitable and I'd much rather teach my dogs from puppyhood that yes, some things are unpleasant but that if they behave they'll be rewarded for it. I don't mean I won't ever expose pups to situations they may not like, or situations where they may chuck a tanty about it, but that when it comes to reinforcing the behaviour I want to see I'd generally remove the reward rather than issue a correction.

[huski]

I'm not sure whether you actually would use a dog behaviour professional if you stuffed up because I have seen you express the fact that none knows learning theory as well as you do.

I never! I expressed my distrust of behaviourists that don't know as much as I do. ;) There's a difference. Would you trust a behaviourist that didn't know as much as you did?

You might notice my first post was not that long. I find I constantly have to expand to cover every freaking eventuality or I get nailed. And yes, people here do often agree with me. It just takes 3 pages of long posts with me covering every freaking evenutality to establish that. I already knew that!!! I don't want to write long posts. I'd be happy if people just answered my questions without provoking me to explain myself in great detail. ;)

Well, seeing as you said you don't think much of the pseudo-science 'touted' by the trainers and behaviourists on DOL, one would wonder who would be someone who 'knows as much as you do'

[Kavik]

You will probaby be fine if all you want are dogs that live in the house with you, go for walks nicely on the lead and recall at the park.

A lot of us have our dogs in classes with us or do more than one performance sport. If you want anything other than house dogs you WILL have problems only using the +R quarter of the quadrant.

I'm not sure whether you actually would use a dog behaviour professional if you stuffed up because I have seen you express the fact that none knows learning theory as well as you do.

I think you woud find if you could be more concise you may realise most people here share the same training ideals as you do, it's just that it takes too long to read paras and paras of what could be said in half the amount of words.

Agree, especially with the bold bit. It is obvious you are an academic as your posts are often very wordy ;) like post #40, rather vague and ambiguous, it is hard to see what you really think as it seems to be all over the place I have an academic background too but try not to be too wordy as concise answers are easier to read, understand and reply to.

One thing I have really learned about training and has helped a lot in agility - set clear criteria.

[OSoSwift]

I do not like to use adversives either. But life sometimes is about getting growled at and not everything going your way.

My puppies get handled from day dot, yes they may wiggle and carry on a bit- never had one actually try to bite or growl though-and I wait them out. as soon as they are still or quiet they get a reward - well actually 2 or 3 really. A pat, voice and a treat. Then I do it again and again and again, until I, for example, bring out the nail clippers sit cross legged on the floor and get a very enthusiastic Whippet slide into my lap and put her feet in the air for a manicure.

Yes I guess it could been seen I use an adversive as I do not let go of the puppy until it is calm. It has always worked and I have never been bitten or growled at yet.

Sometimes I think people over analyse too much and get too caught up in the must only use positive training methods as any for of negativity is awful and nasty - nope it's life. I most certainly do not advocate abusing a dog, but a growl at them or hold them until still at times is appropriate.

[Kelpie-i]

I got the impression from the "enforce boundaries and do not tolerate" message that people must use aversives on their puppies. Holding a puppy down until they stop fighting is an aversive. When I think "enforce" I think there must be consequences if the line is crossed, seeing as the very word "enforce" comes from "force", which means to compel against resistance, but in my household the consequences for crossing a line is no reward, which I was thinking is a bit different to forcing a dog to do something it doesn't want to. Furthermore, it has been said that dogs just have to accept that some things are unpleasant, and it is aversive for a puppy to endure something he doesn't like. It's aversive for an adult dog to endure something it doesn't like. Things dogs don't like are aversive to dogs.

Bolded text 1: Corvus does your new puppy see this as aversive? If the behaviour is continuing, then it is quite obvious this technique is failing you.

Bolded text 2: Based on what you've written, you should find what your new pup finds aversive to help stop the behaviour.

Aversives are part of life and part of the learning process. Why are some people so against aversives? [scratches head]

Rom, agree with your last sentence, we've turned into such a "cotton wool" society. Barbara Woodhouse predicted this in one of her books written in the 70's and she was right. We have a GSD that comes to training, a huge dog that lunges, pulls and mouths people constantly. The owner had previously gone to a PP Vet Behaviourist who advised her never to say "No" to the dog but instead wait for the dog to stop (come off the person) and reward with a treat. What the???

Edited September 5, 2009 by Kelpie-i

[huski]

Aversives are part of life and part of the learning process. Why are some people so against aversives? [scratches head]

Rom, agree with your last sentence, we've turned into such a "cotton wool" society. Barbara Woodhouse predicted this in one of her books written in the 70's and she was right. We have a GSD that comes to training, a huge dog that lunges, pulls and mouths people constantly. The owner had previously gone to a PP Vet Behaviourist who advised her never to say "No" to the dog but instead wait for the dog to stop (come off the person) and reward with a treat. What the???

Totally agree with the above. We had a puppy pre school teacher who was a PP trainer. She told me I could never say no to my puppy, I couldn't do this or that, that she had sit on her mat quietly and calmly for the 60 minute+ puppy class. The only way she could succeed in getting Daisy to "behave" was feeding her pigs ear after pigs ear after pigs ear and at the end of the class I had a puppy acting like a kid on red cordial.

I don't think teaching a pup the rules or boundaries is about correcting them and using aversives, and when it comes to teaching a baby pup I would rely most on removing the reward not issuing corrections. But not everything you do with your pup or dog is going to be pleasant for them and I still struggle to see just what is so wrong or evil about holding your pup till he stops squirming or giving a no or ah ah.

Sometimes I think the anti-punishment/corrections/aversive brigade border on paranoia, surely more damage will be done letting a pup or dog get away with bad behaviour than would ever happen by telling them no or holding them until the stop squirming.

[OSoSwift]

Sometimes I think the anti-punishment/corrections/aversive brigade border on paranoia, surely more damage will be done letting a pup or dog get away with bad behaviour than would ever happen by telling them no or holding them until the stop squirming.

Totally agree Huski.

I know my dog doesn't like an ahah in a growly voice. It did however stop her from running after a cow and potentially getting killed. I know what I would prefer.

[persephone]

When pups are babies.. they certainly get aversives ! Mum, siblings.. the rules are learnt by trial and error, and growls/nips/shoves........... all aversives, in my book simple, direct, communication .

It's how pups learn their boundaries..

Pups run, they come up against a branch/fence/puddle.Oops... nasty... won't do that again. Aversive ? I think so...

I am also not in favour of bullying or abuse.. but a timed and well delivered gruff or scruff ,I believe does no harm.

Edited September 5, 2009 by persephone

[corvus]

It was you who said that if you were to teach Erik the rules, that would mean using aversive methods. It worries me to think that you are avoiding being consistent, and teaching him the rules and yes, enforcing them (i.e. teaching him that he can't win with undesirable behaviour, even if it's as simple as removing what he wants) because you think doing so would have to involve aversives.

See, this is also why I end up writing irritatingly long posts. Because I have to keep repeating myself and I figure obviously the message is not getting through, so I try saying it in several different ways in the hopes that one will make sense.

Let me try again in another way. I'm not avoiding being consistent and I'm not teaching him that he can 'win' with undesirable behaviour. The rule doesn't exist until I think he can stick to it. Puppy licences work with me as well as other dogs. It's not consistent particularly, but nor is shaping, really. You ask for a little more or a little less or a slight variation all the time. I'm not really sure what you are referring to with letting him "win" with undesirable behaviour. Undesirable behaviour never wins here and I don't think I've given any examples where it has, even with Kivi. I also pointed out that I do use R-. I'm more concerned with what I do to avoid the undesirable behaviour happening in the first place. My original question was about situations where you can't just remove a reward or something. You've got a puppy in your lap snarling at you and trying to bite you. What do you do? Is being in this situation at all a result of something going wrong?

Of course dogs have to accept things that can be unpleasant. Such is life. Daisy hates having her ears cleaned, and her nails trimmed, but she will sit there while I do it and she will tolerate it. You say you're not interested in introducing aversives ever if you can avoid it, but realistically, I don't see it as something that can be avoided. The other day at the vet Daisy had to have a thermometer put up her bum - I can guarantee you she didn't like it but she tolerated it just like she does when I trim her nails or clean her ears. These things are inevitable and I'd much rather teach my dogs from puppyhood that yes, some things are unpleasant but that if they behave they'll be rewarded for it. I don't mean I won't ever expose pups to situations they may not like, or situations where they may chuck a tanty about it, but that when it comes to reinforcing the behaviour I want to see I'd generally remove the reward rather than issue a correction.

I don't live in a fairy world where I have the luxury to desensitise to anything aversive that might happen to a dog in its lifetime. I just think if I can avoid introduing an aversive I will. It's much easier when you take the time to teach a dog to like things that they might find unpleasant. It doesn't mean I think I can do that for every unpleasant things the animals have gotta do. I do live with a hare I'm always banging on about. Just walking in to feed him is unpleasant for him a lot of the time. You do what you can is all.

I have trouble with the notion that because dogs do it to each other it's what we should do to dogs. Dogs only have a limited amount of things they can do to tell another dog they don't like something, and for a dog that doesn't like something, they can either express it or live in misery until it's over. I'm a person and I have the brainpower to have a bunch of other options open to me when it comes to communication. I don't have to use aversives just because aversives exist and are a normal part of everyday life. But just because I don't like to use aversives doesn't mean a) I never will or b) I let my animals reward themselves with things I don't like just so I don't have to use an aversive. That's madness. I don't even have to use an aversive to avoid letting them reward themselves with tings I don't like. And I'm hardly going to sit around while my dog is about to, like, eat a spider or something and not do a thing lest it be aversive.

I'm not going to waste my time listing more ways that my training methods are not like people here seem to think they are when I only end up repeating myself and adding more examples that get thoroughly ignored or misunderstood while everyone is patting each other on the back over things that I actually agree with. Thanks to those that did answer the question thoughtfully. You did give me something to think about, which was the point of the thread, but now I've lost enthusiasm for the discussion. Big susprise there.

[Kelpie-i]

Sorry Corvus, but the title of your thread is "How would you handle a dog that dislikes being told off?", and the posts you received have answered your question. You asked a question, you got many answers. I don't understand why you have now "lost enthusiasm" for this thread? Perhaps they weren't the techniques you were looking for??

[Nekhbet]

Rom, agree with your last sentence, we've turned into such a "cotton wool" society. Barbara Woodhouse predicted this in one of her books written in the 70's and she was right. We have a GSD that comes to training, a huge dog that lunges, pulls and mouths people constantly. The owner had previously gone to a PP Vet Behaviourist who advised her never to say "No" to the dog but instead wait for the dog to stop (come off the person) and reward with a treat. What the???

I tend to wonder WHERE veterinary behaviorists get their 'qualifications' to teach people how to train dogs. I have met 2, spent time with them and frankly neither have a clue in hell about how to even get a dog to walk on the leash properly. Mind you dont you DARE use a check chain, it has to be a Halti ... no no doesnt matter what the dog it works on all of them didnt you know

How Would You Handle A Dog That Dislikes Being Told Off?

Frankly ... who's asking the dog. Dont like it tough titties in my household.

One of my dogs turned around when he was told off once, and by that it was an 'OI get out of it'. Teeth bared, puffed out, lunged at me barking. He decided he didnt WANT to leave the food bucket alone. He stood there carrying on like a pork chop and I had a plastic dustpan and brush in my hand. Midway through his foam fest I tapped him on the nose with the brush and then stood there quietly looking at him. Well ... the look of confusion and sheer embaressment was obvious, I shut the dog food bin and walked off.

He sucked up to me all afternoon but I ignored him. Never had a repeat of anything like that again. Didnt have to hurt him, trust me it was literally a bop on the nose but it was enough to break his tantrum and coupled with ignoring him (and no dinner) for being such a turd he changed him mind about trying that again.

There is nothing wrong with breaking a tantrum, holding a dog etc. Dogs ARE physical creatures with each other. We now have this namby pamby idea that touching our dogs is abject abuse and cruelty, we might hurt their feelings or emotionally scar them or some crap like that. Really it's BS. It's going over the top, yes modern motivational methods have their place and have highly advanced dog training but FFS if the dog needs a kick in the arse for trying to bite a person I would have no qualms in doing it.

None of my dogs have ever carried on mouthing, puppy tantrums, arguing about handling etc past a couple of weeks of being with me. Fosters either. My last foster was a nervous wreck, scared of everything etc. So tough love. Dont like it, dont care you are in a new house with new rules. So we got over it. Harrass my dog? Guess what you get pinned down by my bitch and I'm not running over to save you.

After a week at my place she now lives with 2 giant dogs, a horse and is very well behaved.

We're creating and perpetuating problems. I can say this until I'm blue in the face but I'm rarely listened to.

No one should be guilted out of using a corrective aid. If its not your cup of tea DIRECT THEM TO SOMEONE WHO WILL TEACH THEM THE PROPER WAY OF USING IT or show them if it needs it at all.

Edited September 6, 2009 by Nekhbet

[Rusky]

nekhbet you should write a book

[persephone]

nekhbet rofl1.gif you should write a book

I agree ....with photos!

[corvus]

There is nothing wrong with breaking a tantrum, holding a dog etc.

FWIW because I know I will also be totally ignored, I agree... sort of. If I found myself with a dog that's throwing a tantrum and walking away wasn't a good idea for whatever reason, I would absolutely restrain it or whatever it took. Dogs (and puppies) can't be allowed to get any kind of reward for throwing a tantrum, or any behaviour that's unacceptable for that matter. It's obvious, isn't it? My only caveat is that I'd rather not provoke a tantrum in the first place. Tough love is all well and good, but if it's avoidable I'll avoid it. In the past I've been a bit slow on the uptake and provoked something like that through my own stupid actions. But having been in the dubious position of holding onto a puppy intent on doing me harm, it's not something I would cheerfully provoke again.

No one should be guilted out of using a corrective aid. If its not your cup of tea DIRECT THEM TO SOMEONE WHO WILL TEACH THEM THE PROPER WAY OF USING IT or show them if it needs it at all.

No one's being guilted out of using corrective methods, Nekhbet. If you can achieve your aims without them and want to, then what's wrong with that? Having been shown how to administer corrections on a dog incorrectly and done permanent damage in the process, hell would freeze over before I took a dog I had no trouble with to someone who will teach me the proper way of using corrections. If I judge my puppy ever needs a kick up the backside, he'll get one and I won't feel bad about it, but I will never again punish a dog because someone else has told me I should.

Incidentally, I asked around and found a lot of people with dogs that have a fair whack of attitude and talk back, stomp around and throw themselves on the ground, or give their owners dirty looks when asked to do something they don't want to do. It's ignored and has never escalated. The dogs do as they are asked all the same. I spoke to one person who had a real shithead puppy (not like my pseudo-shithead who is phenomenally easy to train and is yet to get the shits with me) and he would go into screaming and snapping fits if he didn't like something. This person got a behaviourist in and was taught to handle the puppy gently and gradually desensitise him, coupled with tons of socialisation and gently introducing to things that were known to set him off in the past and rewarding heavily for good behaviour. Imagine that. This dog is now very relaxed about most things, so the approach worked for him at least, and he was a good deal more stroppy than Erik is. This morning Erik bit my bare ankle too hard and I shrieked and grabbed him by the scruff purely in the interests of my own wellbeing. I challenge anyone to mess around avoiding aversives when they are in pain themselves. I wasn't guilty about it at all.

[persephone]

Erik bit my bare ankle too hard and I shrieked and grabbed him by the scruff purely in the interests of my own wellbeing.

And that's what should be done

a dog like the one you described- screaming/snapping etc sounds very traumatised and definitely in need of REHABILTATION..

This is different to a dog who asserts itself by answering back or refusing to obey, IMO,