How Would You Handle A Dog That Dislikes Being Told Off?

[corvus]

I was chatting to my mother this morning about our new puppy Erik and how I noticed Kivi provoked a very growly and slightly bitey response from Erik by pinning Erik down roughly when Erik hurt him. She noted that her Vallhund has always been a bit like that, and even now at 7 years old and being a total mummy's boy, he grumbles when he's verbally told off. I have noticed this about him as well. He's a pretty laid back dog and he has a sweet temperament, but if you gruff at him for doing something naughty he will grumble back, and sometimes he'll bark at you. It generally gets ignored and nothing ever comes of it.

I'm curious to know how other people would handle a dog that talks back? Or for that matter, a puppy that doesn't give up on making lots of growly noises and flailing until it's flailed as violently and loudly as it can and maybe even tried to bite you. For myself, I try to avoid battles of will, but if I stupidly walk right into one I pretend like nothing is happening while the tantrum or talking back is going on and wait for everything to calm down, then continue with whatever course of action I had set out upon beforehand. I will never forget trying to pull a puppy out from behind a chair and ending up having to pin him down very hard so he couldn't bite me because he got very angry and wanted to do just that. I've decided it's best not to go there at all if you can help it.

[Nekhbet]

He's a pretty laid back dog and he has a sweet temperament, but if you gruff at him for doing something naughty he will grumble back, and sometimes he'll bark at you. It generally gets ignored and nothing ever comes of it.

he's spoiled. And the reason nothing has come of it is because no one has pushed the point with the dog. If any of mine growled or barked back at me like that there would be a boot planted firmly in their butts be careful when you say 'ignore' does the dog get ignored as a punishment or does he think his behavior has gotten him a win?

depends on the dog. Sometimes a dog has to be told, I have held puppies by the scruff/collar until they stop throwing their tanty (and then you slowly lift you hand and the little brats still doing his best 'i'm being murdered' impression) other times they get ignored and basic privilages removed just to show who's boss. I go by the 'behave or go without' rules.

I've decided it's best not to go there at all if you can help it.

that is not fixing the issue that is burying your head in the sand. Sometimes they NEED a good scruff. You can't make exceptions for the dog, avoid things because puppy might throw a tantrum. YOU do what you want and if the dog doesnt like it, tough. Throw a tantrum? Great go for it because you will see it gets you nothing. Behave it gets you everything.

[poodlefan]

The short answer is I'd probably be wondering about the relationship overall.

As I've said before, conflict is a symptom of something not being right. A dog that "talks back" as opposed to just a vocal dog is probably not clear on its position in the household.

That said, some dogs do seem to be more reactive to rough physical handling than others. What I do know is that I'd never intentionally engage in behaviour that would encourage a dog to bite me.

You've got the shithead pup now Corvus.. give him an inch and he's going take a mile. My guess is that he will be the dominant dog of your pair. Your challenge will be to make sure that's where his dominance stops.

Edited September 2, 2009 by poodlefan

[persephone]

Corvus- did U end up choosing the feisty or the mellow Pup?

I would be interested to know more of what his living conditions were like early on- was he with his Mum/siblings til you got him?

perhaps he was never properly disciplined by his mum... so now he doesn't know to trust that it's 'just' discipline, and that he's 'supposed' to submit ?

I second what nekhbet said, and agree with poodlefan that some things need examining..

Is the pup acting/reacting from fear, or is he bloody minded? BIG difference in handling for them, as you know...

[sheree_e4]

He's a pretty laid back dog and he has a sweet temperament, but if you gruff at him for doing something naughty he will grumble back, and sometimes he'll bark at you. It generally gets ignored and nothing ever comes of it.

he's spoiled. And the reason nothing has come of it is because no one has pushed the point with the dog. If any of mine growled or barked back at me like that there would be a boot planted firmly in their butts be careful when you say 'ignore' does the dog get ignored as a punishment or does he think his behavior has gotten him a win?

depends on the dog. Sometimes a dog has to be told, I have held puppies by the scruff/collar until they stop throwing their tanty (and then you slowly lift you hand and the little brats still doing his best 'i'm being murdered' impression) other times they get ignored and basic privilages removed just to show who's boss. I go by the 'behave or go without' rules.

I've decided it's best not to go there at all if you can help it.

that is not fixing the issue that is burying your head in the sand. Sometimes they NEED a good scruff. You can't make exceptions for the dog, avoid things because puppy might throw a tantrum. YOU do what you want and if the dog doesnt like it, tough. Throw a tantrum? Great go for it because you will see it gets you nothing. Behave it gets you everything.

Great post Nekhbet - I totally agree.

Edited September 2, 2009 by sheree_e4

[Aidan]

I was chatting to my mother this morning about our new puppy Erik and how I noticed Kivi provoked a very growly and slightly bitey response from Erik by pinning Erik down roughly when Erik hurt him. She noted that her Vallhund has always been a bit like that

Just be careful not to confuse two completely separate issues.

Right now Erik is what, 9 weeks old? A little growl and a nip back when being pinned at this age is not something you would want to draw conclusions from. He will be testing the boundaries for a long time yet, and assuming Kivi's development was normal there's little reason to doubt that Kivi will know how to handle it.

As for you mother's dog, you already know the problem. Unless you follow the same path you will end up in a different place. Not to mention the fact that you have an older dog who will play a large part in Erik's development.

[corvus]

I've decided it's best not to go there at all if you can help it.

that is not fixing the issue that is burying your head in the sand. Sometimes they NEED a good scruff. You can't make exceptions for the dog, avoid things because puppy might throw a tantrum. YOU do what you want and if the dog doesnt like it, tough. Throw a tantrum? Great go for it because you will see it gets you nothing. Behave it gets you everything.

Well, I don't entirely agree. It's not a matter of avoiding things because you don't want a tantrum, it's a matter of training so that your dog doesn't think to throw a tantrum in the first place. Why physically restrain a dog that might try to bite you as a result if you can just teach them that it's not actually a bad thing in the first place? You can get a long way with an animal without provoking it, and with a bit of care things that might have elicited a tantrum once never do because you took the time to train or desensitise pre-emptively. That's what I mean by thinking it's best not to go there at all if you can help it. There are things I won't do with Erik now because there's no need to do it if it might make him decide to try it on with a person. My hope is that those same things are perfectly acceptable to him some way down the track because I saw it coming and sorted it out gradually without provoking him.

PF, I love my shithead so far. He'll bear watching, though. He can talk back to me all he likes in the future as long he does what he's told. My mother's Vallhund doesn't growl at her, he just grumbles and barks to himself. He still does what he's told, which is often "Stop doing that, Pyry!", just vocalises his sense of injustice for it all. I don't really have a problem with talking back. They can grumble all they like as long as they do what their told. Penny always did, and in the end I was grateful for it because she actually told me when everyday things like a stroke down the back started hurting. Most people she just took it and remained subdued, althugh if you were looking for it, you could see the signs of pain. Sometimes I need dogs to shout at me so I think to listen more closely.

[corvus]

Corvus- did U end up choosing the feisty or the mellow Pup?

I would be interested to know more of what his living conditions were like early on- was he with his Mum/siblings til you got him?

perhaps he was never properly disciplined by his mum... so now he doesn't know to trust that it's 'just' discipline, and that he's 'supposed' to submit ?

I second what nekhbet said, and agree with poodlefan that some things need examining..

Is the pup acting/reacting from fear, or is he bloody minded? BIG difference in handling for them, as you know...

I got the fiesty pup. He was with mum and siblings until at least 9 weeks. I got him at nearly 10 weeks on the weekend. As far as he's concerned he's not "supposed" to submit. He doesn't like something and makes lots of noise about it. That's all there is to it at the moment. I'm just noting that Kivi was more of a lie down and cry kind of dog all along and just kept crying until he was let alone. Erik goes the other way and makes noise. It's interesting to me how there are similar elements to the aggressive puppy that tried to bite me, but very different things as well. The puppy that tried to bite me was prone to getting snarky when things didn't go his way, but he was also terrified of anything new in his environment.

[Mym]

Hahaha...I have a shithead too.

He was surrendered over his behaviour - only thing I would add is the importance of the other dog. My slightly older more relaxed dog is very good at making this feistier one toe the line. And we allow him within reason to check the other dogs behaviour. The younger dog gets very vocal about not getting his way but he modifies his behaviour.

Like I have put in other posts, we have spent four months trying to teach this boy manners - mainly because he has lacked the socialisation skills to know any better. I liken our boy with a child reared by wolves, and we are getting there. Given that you are looking into this so early, my guess is that you are onto it and will sort him out. It is early days yet - Good Luck and where is his picture???

[Vickie]

corvus, you scare me sometimes. I always get the feeling that you are trying to read human motivations & reasoning into dogs. I think generally speaking dogs are pretty black & white, not the multiple shades of grey you always seem to be discussing/arguing.

Have you clipped his nails yet? Most puppies don't like this & I find the way people deal with this often paints a pretty accurate picture of how the relationship will go. Clipping their nails is be a great way to earn their trust. The message I want to send is "yes, I know you don't like this, but I am going to do it anyway. I will be patient & kind but I will not put up with any crap. In time you will learn that doing this will never hurt you, you will stand calmly while I do it & we will have a play when it's done.

Nails are a good example of something that lots of people put off b/c their pups don't like it. A pup that won't let you clip it's nails is often a dog who will not let you do anything it is remotely uncomfortable with. These dogs will never usually bite their owner b/c the owner always backs down when the dog gives it's warning signal. God help the poor vet who has to treat them one day though, or the unsuspecting person who doesn't know Fido's warning system or doesn't realise that Fido doesn't like to be touched on the ear.

I don't think you have to be cruel to a dog to get it to do things it doesn't like. Mostly I think it's more cruel to let them dictate what they will & won't do. They end up confused about the mixed signals they get & a confused dog is an unhappy dog. That to me is cruel.

[poodlefan]

Have you clipped his nails yet? Most puppies don't like this & I find the way people deal with this often paints a pretty accurate picture of how the relationship will go. Clipping their nails is be a great way to earn their trust. The message I want to send is "yes, I know you don't like this, but I am going to do it anyway. I will be patient & kind but I will not put up with any crap. In time you will learn that doing this will never hurt you, you will stand calmly while I do it & we will have a play when it's done.

I do Howie's nails at least once a fortnight and have since I got him. I think I might have detected the teeniest bit of acceptance when I did them last night. He's not standing though.. he's upside down in a vice like grip.

[Kavik]

Oooh nails

Kaos is a tricky bugger with nails. At least now I can do them without him trying to bite me, though he still does try to pull away.

[Vickie]

Kaos is a tricky bugger with nails. At least now I can do them without him trying to bite me, though he still does try to pull away.

Well I hate to say it but I'm not terribly surprised. I'm also willing to bet that if you solved this issue, the problem you are having with him in agility would disappear.

[westielover]

he he -I can not only clip my dogs nails while they are calmly standing still but I can also file them so that they have no sharp edges left to cut themselves with when they have a little scratch. It's something I worked on when they were puppies and thankfully it worked a treat

[Cosmolo]

Good post Vickie. none of my dogs like having their nails done but they all stand quietly while it occurs- makes the whole process much easier!

[corvus]

What have I said this time to make people think I have committed the cardinal sin of seeing human emotions in animals? :D

I have expectations for all my animals and it doesn't change because they are stroppy or placid. It just means I adjust the way I go about teaching them to meet those expectations. I could never convince my hare to offer his nails up to be done, although I did try at one point and was able to do most of his front ones that way, but back ones were another matter. Nowadays I put it off as long as I can because I know he's going to be traumatised by it, then I catch him, wrap him in a sheet so he can't see what's going on or get away, and do the nails as quickly as I can and let him go again. The rabbit gets tipped on her back, which is something she didn't like at first, so I didn't do it at first. I did it with her upright and once she was comfortable with being handled then she learnt to like being upside down. If she never liked it that's fine. She's still got to get her nails cut and if she doesn't cooperate it will just have to go down like it does with the hare. Thankfully, it wasn't very hard to teach her to accept being handled.

I don't think it's unreasonable to introduce any animal to something slowly because they are liable to get stroppy. It's common sense to avoid 'scenes' if you can. All I'm saying is that I'd rather desensitise than just force an animal to do something and then deal with any unpleasant consequences. It's not like I'm not going to handle Erik and just hope he comes to like having his nails cut all on his own once he comes to 'trust' me. He gets handled a lot everyday, and often in ways he doesn't entirely enjoy. It's important to handle him in ways he doesn't entirely enjoy so that he can learn that it's actually not that bad. Just as Kivi is currently learning that being blow dried is just not that bad.

Animals aren't black and white. They love or hate some things, but given you can get a puppy that tries to hurt people when they do something to him he doesn't like and a puppy that cries when someone does something he doesn't like and everything in between, what is black and white about that? And given you can slowly teach an animal to quite enjoy something he once hated with the right reward history, what's black and white about that? I'm saddened when people approach their animals with a "We can do this the easy way or the hard way" attitude when all they needed to do to make it the easy way was put a bit of time into showing their animal that it's not as bad as all that. Often it only takes five minutes and a handful of treats. It's not madness, it's not putting human emotions into animals, it's just basic stuff that works on any animal in the world that is capable of learning.

[The Spotted Devil]

I have a strange house.....last night I pulled out the nail clippers....and had a queue :D Cats first....Brontë and Dizzy lay on their backs on my lap to have theirs done and then Lilly sat quietly so I could clip hers. Meanwhile, Zig is waiting impatiently beside me for his turn :D

Back to the case in point - corvus, in regards to this:

He's a pretty laid back dog and he has a sweet temperament, but if you gruff at him for doing something naughty he will grumble back, and sometimes he'll bark at you.

Personally I wouldn't assume that the dog knows it's been 'naughty' and has any idea what you're on about

[Staranais]

What would I do with a dog that talked back? I ignore the talking back and make the dog do what we're doing anyway. We're actually going through a talking back stage this week at my house. Although strangely, she's still quite OK so far with having her nails done. :D

I personally wouldn't class a reaction caused by fear as "talking back", though. "Talking back" means stroppy to me, not fearful.

[Vickie]

Animals aren't black and white. They love or hate some things, but given you can get a puppy that tries to hurt people when they do something to him he doesn't like and a puppy that cries when someone does something he doesn't like and everything in between, what is black and white about that? And given you can slowly teach an animal to quite enjoy something he once hated with the right reward history, what's black and white about that? I'm saddened when people approach their animals with a "We can do this the easy way or the hard way" attitude when all they needed to do to make it the easy way was put a bit of time into showing their animal that it's not as bad as all that. Often it only takes five minutes and a handful of treats. It's not madness, it's not putting human emotions into animals, it's just basic stuff that works on any animal in the world that is capable of learning.

I am not saying they are all the same, I'm saying they all follow the same basic set of rules (and I'm talking dogs here, not rabbits & hares)

This works. This doesn't.

That was pleasant, I am more likely to do it again.

That was unpleasant, I am less likely to do it again.

That behaviour was accepted, this was not.

Don't be sad for me. All I aim for is consistency with my dogs. I try to treat them in a consistent manner & I feel they are pretty consistent in return. I am not cruel to them, but I expect them to obey the commands I have taught them. I cannot imagine any of them biting me because of something I do to them as I will never force them to do something unpleasant just for the sake of it, but sometimes unpleasant things are a necessity. Believe it or not mine are all quite obedient and incredibly motivated to train with me...so please...don't be sad for me! You can't force a dog to be motivated & enjoy training. Motivation comes with consistency and a solid reward history. Black & white. This works, this doesn't.

If you are happy with your relationship with your dogs & your ability to get the best out of them, then that is all that matters. I am sorry if I got the impression that you are struggling with your relationships sometimes.

Edited September 2, 2009 by Vickie

[huski]

Animals aren't black and white. They love or hate some things, but given you can get a puppy that tries to hurt people when they do something to him he doesn't like and a puppy that cries when someone does something he doesn't like and everything in between, what is black and white about that? And given you can slowly teach an animal to quite enjoy something he once hated with the right reward history, what's black and white about that? I'm saddened when people approach their animals with a "We can do this the easy way or the hard way" attitude when all they needed to do to make it the easy way was put a bit of time into showing their animal that it's not as bad as all that. Often it only takes five minutes and a handful of treats. It's not madness, it's not putting human emotions into animals, it's just basic stuff that works on any animal in the world that is capable of learning.

I am not saying they are all the same, I'm saying they all follow the same basic set of rules (and I'm talking dogs here, not rabbits & hares)

This works. This doesn't.

That was pleasant, I am more likely to do it again.

That was unpleasant, I am less likely to do it again.

That behaviour was accepted, this was not.

Don't be sad for me. All I aim for is consistency with my dogs. I try to treat them in a consistent manner & I feel they are pretty consistent in return. I am not cruel to my dogs, but I expect them to obey the commands I have taught them. I cannot imagine any of them biting me because of something I do to them. Believe it or not they are all quite obedient and incredibly motivated to train with me...so please...don't be sad for me! You can't force a dog to be motivated & enjoy training. Motivation comes with consistency and a solid reward history. Black & white. This works, this doesn't.

If you are happy with your relationship with your dogs & your ability to get the best out of them, then that is all that matters.

Well said, Vickie. I totally agree :D

Dogs will form habits when they find particular behaviours work for them. If they gain success from x behaviour, of course they are going to want to exhibit it again, it's not complicated.

Daisy has always been a challenging dog and I found I had the most success when I was black and white with my approach i.e. undesirable behaviour doesn't get what you want; desirable behaviour will get you what you want.

ETA: I found the hardest thing with a challenging dog is that bad behaviour can quite easily become a habit if you let them win with it. Daisy is so stubborn and strong willed, and smart - she only needs to learn something will work once to get her what she wants before she'll try it on again and again and again.

Edited September 2, 2009 by huski