Bubitty Posted August 31, 2009 Share Posted August 31, 2009 Hi Guys! I was wondering if anyone can recommend me a beginners book on clicker training or give me some tips for my pup. She is very eager to work and focused but I have noticed that she gets “upset” when I sit around and wait for a behaviour. Last night we tried to learn “shame” and she ended up barking and jumping all over me out of frustration. As soon as I stopped trying the clicker and taught her to weave through my legs by using my hand she was as happy as a clam again. She is excellent when I lure her into doing something but seems to “go off the rails” if I sit there and wait for a behaviour. Hoping someone can help! We have such a good time together I don’t want training to become a frustrating thing for her but would like to try and use the clicker as I don’t think I can teach everything by luring. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Tess32 Posted August 31, 2009 Share Posted August 31, 2009 Some dogs find 'capturing' a frustrating experience because new trainers don't reward enough for every step in the right direction. If she's finding it frustrating, she's probably not getting enough reinforcement - so you could try by rewarding her for ANY step that is towards the behaviour you want. You shouldn't ever be just sitting there and waiting - puppies who haven't yet learnt to offer new behaviours are just going to get frustrated. Do whatever you can to keep up a frequent rate of reinforcement, even if it means luring into what you want approximately. Some dogs just don't learn via capturing I've found too. I've been using capturing to teach a bow, and the behaviour has *increased* but my normally "I'll offer ANYTHING" and quick learning dog, just doesn't get it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bubitty Posted August 31, 2009 Author Share Posted August 31, 2009 Thanks Tess! It probably doesn’t help that I am a ninny at this whole clicker thing so I think I am being a bit ambitious and quite demanding of her. Do you have any easy exercises that you can recommend we do? We have been learning “touch” and she does that well. Aim is to roll a ball and I think she is nearly there. I got overexcited on the weekend and wanted to do shame and then the meltdown! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laffi Posted August 31, 2009 Share Posted August 31, 2009 I wouldn't sit and wait for a behavior with a new dog that is not used to clicker training and doesn't offer behaviors. For new dogs I would teach things that I can split into very small steps and click and treat for each step. I think that's the most challenging part of clicker training: being able to brake down each behavior into the smallest possible steps and teach them in the right order. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Spotted Devil Posted August 31, 2009 Share Posted August 31, 2009 It does sound like too much too soon Bub - remember she's a baby You must be patient or else you will take all the fun out of it. Rather than a simple exercise for your puppy, I suggest you give the clicker to your hubby, ask him to think of something he wants you to do (e.g. stand on one leg - think left, right or either - with one hand on your head - again think left, right or either) - then get him to shape the behaviour only using the clicker and NO SPEAKING. You will find out just how difficult it is especially when you consider that you have to create motivation in your pup! Zig initially barked like crazy (he never, ever barks unless it's a warning) but now he sees the clicker and recognises that it's time to think a little laterally. One of my techniques is to use one piece of kibble for repeating the same level of the exercise and jackpot with a handful when he makes a step forward, if that makes sense! If I don't he gets incredibly frustrated. I taught him the beginnings of the U.D. box exercise yesterday - within 30 mins (with small bits of training) he was sprinting to the box and sitting in it - how I love the clicker, let me count the ways :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luke W Posted August 31, 2009 Share Posted August 31, 2009 I found that targetting was a great one to start with. It's easy to maintain a high rate of reinforcement. Click the dog for a look in the direction of the target, movement toward the target, sniff of the target, touch of the target, etc, etc. Or "101 games with a box" - http://www.clickertraining.com/node/167 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bubitty Posted August 31, 2009 Author Share Posted August 31, 2009 Thanks so much guys!!! We have started on targeting and have been doing well. I just got overexcited and became too “pushy” in terms of my training. After last night I figure it was time to back off and get some proper advice so I don’t crush her enthusiasm! Thanks for the box link Luke!!!!!!! We’ll have some fun with that!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corvus Posted August 31, 2009 Share Posted August 31, 2009 +1 to targeting and 101 things to do with a box. I'm still pretty clumsy with the clicker, and it shows in my dog and how he responds to clicker training. He can get frustrated as well, and sometimes things are much slower than they should be. Sometimes he needs a little help to get started in the right direction, too. One of my problems with shaping is not being consistent when I increase the criteria. My dog gets bored after repeating something, like, 3 times. So if I have increased the criteria and he's getting there, just as I'm about to increase it again he decides it's boring and throws himself on the ground with a sigh and chews my foot, and then if I get him to do it again he'll throw some half-arsed thing at me that I know he can do much better, but I reward it anyway because otherwise I'm in for another sulk. What I SHOULD be doing is increasing the criteria, rewarding a few times, then calling it quits before he gets bored of it. That's my number one thing to improve on with clicker training at the moment. I always fall into the trap of trying just one more because he seems so into it today. It also helps to chop and change a bit with different treats and asking for different things. I can get a training session to last a little longer if I switch between a couple of different things we're learning. But still, keep sessions really short. Just a few minutes. My rabbit wouldn't train for more than 60 seconds, so don't be too demanding of your pup. I found one thing that really got Kivi on the way to begin with was just clicking the first thing he did without any luring or props to work with. You should have seen him walk around the kitchen backwards because I clicked a half step back and went from there. Offering his paw was an instant favourite of his and still his most favourite thing to do. He'll offer a paw just for the sake of doing something with his paw. Look for little things your dog does naturally to reinforce. It helped with Kivi. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bubitty Posted August 31, 2009 Author Share Posted August 31, 2009 What I SHOULD be doing is increasing the criteria, rewarding a few times, then calling it quits before he gets bored of it. That's my number one thing to improve on with clicker training at the moment. I always fall into the trap of trying just one more because he seems so into it today. Yup! That’s my down fall. Always thinking “just one more round sweetie” because she is so enthused and eager! She’s so different from my other dog (lazy lazy that one!) so its hard not to get excited and just train with her all day and night!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mym Posted August 31, 2009 Share Posted August 31, 2009 So True isn't it? I have two collies, and they are so different in personality - given that I am fairly new to clicker it can make for interesting times. I have been practicing my clicker skills with both and my older boy just starts offering anything. So this requires me to be training something that I won't necessarily be fazed about it I stuff up. I was looking on You Tube the other day for video on 180 and 270's and found a dog called Dazzle that has something like 65+ tricks. One video was 'blowing bubbles'. Funnily enough, my young nuclear powered dog was doing this in about two sessions of five minutes each - he loved it. My older dog, who has done some clicker training was just unimpressed with what I was asking him to do. He just hates dipping his nose in water, so I let it go, and we tried standing on a box. I got his front feet on easily and his back feet inched closer to it but we just didn't get anywhere closer. I trained this as I am really trying to get him aware of his back legs. So what do you do when you are so close, but so far from the goal? He just started running through a repertoire of skills, I felt like he was going "okay, maybe it is this, or that, what about this? - with no inkling of it." We packed up for the day and I left it.... Maybe...I could walk him onto the box? And reward for his hind legs being on it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonElite Posted August 31, 2009 Share Posted August 31, 2009 send me you emiall addy and I might be able to send you some info via email Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aidan Posted August 31, 2009 Share Posted August 31, 2009 It's generally a rate of reinforcement / criteria issue and that is the first thing to look at. Sometimes cueing a well known behaviour can settle things down a little, and give you a chance to consider the situation. I try to avoid extinction bursts if I can. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bubitty Posted August 31, 2009 Author Share Posted August 31, 2009 Umm what is an extinction burst??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aidan Posted August 31, 2009 Share Posted August 31, 2009 Umm what is an extinction burst??? When a previously reinforced behaviour is no longer being reinforced, the animal will often escalate the behaviour before it starts to diminish again. Put more simply, when something stops working for a dog, they have a little tantrum or a sook. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Casima Posted August 31, 2009 Share Posted August 31, 2009 Funnily enough, my young nuclear powered dog was doing this in about two sessions of five minutes each - he loved it. My older dog, who has done some clicker training was just unimpressed with what I was asking him to do. He just hates dipping his nose in water, so I let it go, and we tried standing on a box. I got his front feet on easily and his back feet inched closer to it but we just didn't get anywhere closer. I trained this as I am really trying to get him aware of his back legs. So what do you do when you are so close, but so far from the goal? He just started running through a repertoire of skills, I felt like he was going "okay, maybe it is this, or that, what about this? - with no inkling of it." We packed up for the day and I left it.... Maybe...I could walk him onto the box? And reward for his hind legs being on it? Hi Mym, how big is the box? I've found with this type behaviour its easiest for the dog if you start with a really big box that they can easily just get on, once they get that idea in their mind, then shrink it down some so they have to work their back legs alittle more, don't make the box too small too fast but once they get good they can learn to stand on something really small. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
piper Posted August 31, 2009 Share Posted August 31, 2009 Hi Mym, how big is the box? I've found with this type behaviour its easiest for the dog if you start with a really big box that they can easily just get on, once they get that idea in their mind, then shrink it down some so they have to work their back legs alittle more, don't make the box too small too fast but once they get good they can learn to stand on something really small. The other option is to ask him to stand on something on flat ground that feels different to the surrounding groumd. It was suggested to me a few years ago now to use a large sheet of corrugated card as it feels nothing like the usual ground surfaces they are on which makes them aware of their foot movement. Put standing on that on cue and reduce the size then once it is well established on cue, introduce something else that is slightly raised and ask them toi step onto that, sometimes they get stuck and need some help as they may not generalise the cue to the new object. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mym Posted August 31, 2009 Share Posted August 31, 2009 (edited) Hi Mym, how big is the box? I've found with this type behaviour its easiest for the dog if you start with a really big box that they can easily just get on, once they get that idea in their mind, then shrink it down some so they have to work their back legs alittle more, don't make the box too small too fast but once they get good they can learn to stand on something really small. The other option is to ask him to stand on something on flat ground that feels different to the surrounding groumd. It was suggested to me a few years ago now to use a large sheet of corrugated card as it feels nothing like the usual ground surfaces they are on which makes them aware of their foot movement. Put standing on that on cue and reduce the size then once it is well established on cue, introduce something else that is slightly raised and ask them toi step onto that, sometimes they get stuck and need some help as they may not generalise the cue to the new object. Yes, good question - I think the box might be a bit small to begin with. I had a nobbly rubber bath mat underneath it so that when he hit that I rewarded it so that there was a clear line for having moved closer and onto something that was a bit different. Am sure I can locate some iron though - thanks for the tip A mate at agility suggested last night a mostly deflate ball that you would use for pilates and we were going to get organised and make a wobble board. Mind you I get so excited by each small achievement that we make - on Saturday we were in a handling class. I felt we had spent a brilliant day out and the instructors were saying that even in the heat the dogs had more drive at the end of the day than at the beginning. I have never done more than about 8 obstacles because we have not competed or ever run a full course. My dog knew exactly what to do....it was me that was getting lost all the bloody time! I was so excited by how well he was going that I was forgetting where to be next So funny....and yes....it was all caught on videotape. My reason for posting that is at the end, one of the people in my group said that some of us were crap and some were really good. I was a bit surprised because she obviously meant me, yet from my perspective I felt like it had been the most wonderful day with my dog ever. Funny about how perspective can alter our own personal realities. Edited August 31, 2009 by Mym Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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