Nekhbet Posted September 5, 2009 Share Posted September 5, 2009 you have to train overriding extreme emotion. What do you think that would entail. I have trained bite inhibition in older, more extreme dogs and it's not as simple as letting them mouth you then tone it down. To do that would be like putting the dog ON the kitchen table and teaching it backwards from there never to get on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staranais Posted September 5, 2009 Share Posted September 5, 2009 If a dog is injured or frightened sometimes no matter what the training it will bite you and hard that means the dog has not been taught bite inhibition which is what i was was trying to say. There is a massive difference in the power of the bite if the dog has been taught bite inhibition. A dog can have good bite inhibition though, as in can know how soft human skin is, but can still choose to bite hard if it feels threatened or stroppy. I would be interested in his research about the results of bite inhibition training though, has he published it? (genuine question) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cosmolo Posted September 5, 2009 Share Posted September 5, 2009 What Staranais and Nekhbet said. Testing bite inhibition is not as simple as seeing whether a dog bites hard when they do. Bite inhibition is about ability to modify, not inclination to bite soft. A dog can have a soft mouth and still bite hard- when it wants to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huski Posted September 5, 2009 Share Posted September 5, 2009 I've read Dunbar's views on teaching bite inhibition before and I have to admit I find them quite bizarre. A dog biting because it's scared is completely different to teaching bite inhibition, I don't even know why the two are compared Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cosmolo Posted September 5, 2009 Share Posted September 5, 2009 I'm a big believer that the vast majority of bite inhibition is learned with Mum and littermates with a genetic component coming into play as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huski Posted September 5, 2009 Share Posted September 5, 2009 I'm a big believer that the vast majority of bite inhibition is learned with Mum and littermates with a genetic component coming into play as well. Cos, do you find many clients with dogs who they bought home too early (i.e. 6 weeks) have more problems with bite inhibition than people who got their pups at an older age? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cosmolo Posted September 5, 2009 Share Posted September 5, 2009 Not always Huski, although they may have other problems. Its like single litter pups- i've known some with bite inhibition or socialisation issues, others without. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rusky Posted September 5, 2009 Share Posted September 5, 2009 Where did this pearl of wisdom come from? Some tiny breeds barely grow teeth until later then larger breeds. So what, they dont need BI? Pups teeth are baby teeth, they need to be sharp (like our own baby teeth) to poke through the gum and allow the pup to EAT. In the wild they would be eating regurgitated meat and gnawing on left overs from the adults and hence would wear those points a bit faster then we have them when on sloppy puppy foods I guess from him watching thousands of dogs and other animals. He was an animal behaviourist before he got his malamute and wanted to train it He still is a behaviourist, he still studies and quantifies behaviour. There is apparently no reason for baby dogs to have razor sharp teeth, generally for every animal there is a reason for whatever they have, the only reason baby dogs have teeth is because they hurt...seriously. They then learn very quickly how much force to use in play with other puppies. Ian Dunbar has had many serious articles published internationally. He accidentally got into dogs and dog training because of his malamute when he couldn't find anywhere to help him train his dog without aversives. He is the father of positive reinforcement training as we know it today and to his credit he doesn't stick with his original training, he constantly modifies if he finds something which works better. He has many people he admires and suggests reading such as Rugaas, Miller, Donaldson to name a few depending on your particular interest. He had a small son when he got his human aggressive dog. He had to teach an older dog bite inhibition. Have a look at before and after you get a puppy, they are free downloads, you can take your time. He will answer any emails. His prime interest really is socialisation in puppies. He does own a rescue centre in the US which he bought a while ago and uses some quite revolutionary methods of training and housing shelter dogs. Shelter dogs...adult dogs who are abandoned come with their own sets of issues including biting and aggression, again he uses some interesting ways of dealing with them. I have quite a few of his DVDs and I find some stuff hard to swallow..or maybe understand as some is confrontational but never bizzare. Every step he takes is explained in layman terms. He isn't an amazing personality or anything, he is an entertaining speaker I guess. I didn't particularly like him, I don't have to though, he is a well educated expert behaviourist.. I did love his 3 day seminar and did lots of noddies throught the lecture as some stuff is very simple. I tend to think his lectures are probably regurgitated and not set for specifics. Bite inhibition and puppy mouthing is something I have always been interested in. I also must stress that Dunbar states emphatically that the objective is no mouth ever ever on people. His hand in mouth for his own dog is a different set of circumstances. No dog should ever grab clothing or any other part of a human which has no sensitivity as a sleeve is close to a hand etc. I think puppies need to mouth. I don't think anyone should be hurt though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cosmolo Posted September 5, 2009 Share Posted September 5, 2009 I think puppies need to mouth too. I just don't think they need to mouth people Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
persephone Posted September 5, 2009 Share Posted September 5, 2009 the only reason baby dogs have teeth is because they hurt...seriously (my take on it)The only reason 'baby dogs' have such sharp teeth is because they are carnivores, and before they were domesticated, had to use those tiny daggers to chew up bits of meat/skin/bone their dam brought home. Imagine gummy 4 week old wolf/wild dog cubs? they'd die!! Carnivores in the wild need to move around and hunt, and a bitch carting around gallons of milk can't do that! pups have to start consuming meat early on, so they grow and learn skills quickly....Those sharp teeth can and do play a big part in helping guard food resources, sure- but if they didn't eat the food as little pups, they wouldn't need the sharp teeth to guard it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seven Posted September 5, 2009 Share Posted September 5, 2009 I think puppies need to mouth too. I just don't think they need to mouth people Might be a silly question Is it still fine to let puppies play tug a war type games or chase the rope toy with you instead. Kinda like using it instead of mouthing or biting you and encouraging this with there prey drive. Will this teach them that its ok to do that but not do it to humans. Some people say the tug a war is good for work animals, but not for pets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cosmolo Posted September 5, 2009 Share Posted September 5, 2009 Not a silly question. Yes i encourage tug of war with toys as an appropriate outlet provided we also teach the pup to give when asked. Dogs can differentiate between playing tug with a toy and grabbing person skin or clothing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aidan Posted September 7, 2009 Share Posted September 7, 2009 Dogs who have learned bite inhibition can and DO demonstrate it when threatened and biting in defence. That is not a blanket statement that applies to all dogs, but it is a statement of fact. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corvus Posted September 7, 2009 Share Posted September 7, 2009 Interesting discussion. It seems to me that bite inhibition and bite threshold are being used interchangeably. If your dog in extreme pain doesn't bite, that's got nothing to do with bite inhibition as I understand it, which is how hard it will bite. A couple of times my old corgi was in extreme pain and did bite, but she did not break the skin and used only just enough pressure to make you think "Ow" but not actually whip your hand away. That's what I would call good bite inhibition. This topic interests me as we had a rescue dog once with no bite inhibition. She never showed any inclination to bite people, thank goodness, but when she bit another dog she did massive damage. Can you teach an adult dog like that bite inhibition? I'm of two minds about Dunbar's method of teaching bite inhibition. Kivi was an extremely mouthy puppy and has grown into a mouthy adult dog. He still mouths me from time to time and normally it doesn't hurt, but every now and then he mouths a bit hard, or at times when I don't want him to. I think with him I wasn't quick enough to phase it out. I hadn't read Dunbar's articles on it and had not been told by trainers that I would have to phase it out. I didn't with Penny; she grew out of it well before she was 6 months old. I think with Kivi I may have been better off just saying no biting at all right from the get-go. He already had great bite inhibition when I took him home and for all that he's always been mouthy, he's always been gentle. Erik is not as naturally mouthy as Kivi was. He doesn't bite as much, and as long as he's not at the height of excitement, I can feel him testing his bite and the yelp does work. When he's full of beans, though, I don't really waste time yelping. He will bite me way too hard and that to me warrants immediate, definitive action. I have decided with Erik to go back to what I did with Penny when I was 13 and hadn't read a dog book in my life, and gradually teach him to modify his bite and phase it out to not biting at all more quickly than I did with Kivi. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corvus Posted September 7, 2009 Share Posted September 7, 2009 Where did this pearl of wisdom come from? Some tiny breeds barely grow teeth until later then larger breeds. So what, they dont need BI? Pups teeth are baby teeth, they need to be sharp (like our own baby teeth) to poke through the gum and allow the pup to EAT. In the wild they would be eating regurgitated meat and gnawing on left overs from the adults and hence would wear those points a bit faster then we have them when on sloppy puppy foods I guess from him watching thousands of dogs and other animals. He was an animal behaviourist before he got his malamute and wanted to train it He still is a behaviourist, he still studies and quantifies behaviour. There is apparently no reason for baby dogs to have razor sharp teeth, generally for every animal there is a reason for whatever they have, the only reason baby dogs have teeth is because they hurt...seriously. They then learn very quickly how much force to use in play with other puppies. May I make a further suggestion? Perhaps defence is also a component? I don't think it is uncommon for puppies (wolf cubs) to be around older dogs/wolves that are not their parents. If they are anything like some of the adolecent dogs I've met, perhaps they get a bit rough with puppies and need the sharpness of puppy teeth to remind them to be gentle as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luke W Posted September 7, 2009 Share Posted September 7, 2009 (edited) With flame suit on and wary of the wrath of the other school... For what it's worth... This is Barkly. "By the time your pup is five months old, he must have a mouth as soft and reliable as a fourteen-year-old working Labrador Retriever: your puppy should never initiate mouthing unless requested; he should never exert any pressure when mouthing; and he should stop mouthing and calm down immediately upon request by any family member. ... For owners who have good control over their dog, there is no better way to maintain the dog's soft mouth than by regular play-fighting. However, to prevent your puppy from getting out of control and to fully realize the many benefits of play-fighting, you must play by the rules and teach your dog to play by the rules." Edited September 7, 2009 by Luke W Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staranais Posted September 8, 2009 Share Posted September 8, 2009 Interesting discussion. It seems to me that bite inhibition and bite threshold are being used interchangeably. If your dog in extreme pain doesn't bite, that's got nothing to do with bite inhibition as I understand it, which is how hard it will bite. A couple of times my old corgi was in extreme pain and did bite, but she did not break the skin and used only just enough pressure to make you think "Ow" but not actually whip your hand away. That's what I would call good bite inhibition.This topic interests me as we had a rescue dog once with no bite inhibition. She never showed any inclination to bite people, thank goodness, but when she bit another dog she did massive damage. Can you teach an adult dog like that bite inhibition? I'm not terribly convinced by this, Corvus. My last boy was capable of using his mouth very very gently on people, no matter how hurt or aroused he became, but like your rescue girl, he also attacked other dogs by biting so hard that we had to prise him off them with a stick. I think it's good for dogs to learn and practice bite inhibition, either from other puppies, or from people. But when push comes to shove, I think even dogs with bite inhibition can choose to bite as hard as they please. Bite inhibition may give the dog the option of biting softly (which is of course a good thing), but in my experience the dog doesn't necessarily choose to use that option if it doesn't want to. My current girl is a handful. She has lovely bite inhibition, and since I have had her she's given me a couple of beautifully inhibited bites that were as fast as a striking snake but too soft to actually hurt. But I have no doubt that she could really nail me with her teeth if she chose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nekhbet Posted September 9, 2009 Share Posted September 9, 2009 But I have no doubt that she could really nail me with her teeth if she chose. you going to do bitework? be a shame not to? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staranais Posted September 9, 2009 Share Posted September 9, 2009 But I have no doubt that she could really nail me with her teeth if she chose. you going to do bitework? be a shame not to? Well, don't laugh, but we actually inadvertantly do bitework all the time already. We're training up for SAR, and she's just decided to start rewarding herself with a bite on the victim once she's found them. Luckily I have very patient victims! It's something we're really going to have to sort out before she gets much bigger. When her SAR stuff is nailed though, we'll see how much time and energy we both have left. It would be cool to give schutzhund a go if it's not going to muck up her SAR stuff. Sorry everyone else, off topic! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nekhbet Posted September 9, 2009 Share Posted September 9, 2009 If she is having problems controlling her drive start some schutzhund bitework now - both as an outlet and as a control exercise. Teach her she ONLY bites/plays on command and teaching things like the bark and hold is an excellent exercise in self control PLUS learning to be vocal when she finds her target. If you simply try and extinguish it then you will be confusing her down the track. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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