Distemper

[neatz]

A customer came in to work today and said she lost a pup to Distemper (confirmed by her vet) recently (in the past month)?

She purchased the dog from west of Melbourne and she lives in the north of Melbourne and the dog was a confirmed Distemper victim.

Anyone else know of Canine Distemper around the burbs?

[Rappie]

There were a few confirmed cases in western Sydney a few years ago - if I remember correctly amongst more than one litter of greyhound puppies. I have also seen a suspect case in an unvaccinated adult dog - high index of suspicion for it after a fairly long discussion with a neurologist.

[Cavalier]

There were a few confirmed cases in western Sydney a few years ago - if I remember correctly amongst more than one litter of greyhound puppies. I have also seen a suspect case in an unvaccinated adult dog - high index of suspicion for it after a fairly long discussion with a neurologist.

We still see distemper quite regularly in the remote North West of WA. Not to mention our isolation ward full of parv pups....

[oakway]

There were a few confirmed cases in western Sydney a few years ago - if I remember correctly amongst more than one litter of greyhound puppies. I have also seen a suspect case in an unvaccinated adult dog - high index of suspicion for it after a fairly long discussion with a neurologist.

We still see distemper quite regularly in the remote North West of WA. Not to mention our isolation ward full of parv pups....

Hi Cavailier,

Is from the camp dogs spreading it ?.

[Cavalier]

There were a few confirmed cases in western Sydney a few years ago - if I remember correctly amongst more than one litter of greyhound puppies. I have also seen a suspect case in an unvaccinated adult dog - high index of suspicion for it after a fairly long discussion with a neurologist.

We still see distemper quite regularly in the remote North West of WA. Not to mention our isolation ward full of parv pups....

Hi Cavailier,

Is from the camp dogs spreading it ?.

It is - but there is also a large number of people in the town who do not vaccinate their dogs. As there is such a large percetage of the population unvaccinated

these diseases still spread around. Have also had 2 dogs with canine adenovirus 2..

Because of our situation we do not recommend using the 2 vaccination puppy protocol come vets use in cities - have seen too many pups with parvo a couple of weeks after

their second vaccination. I would also we loathed to use the 3 yearly vaccine. In Perth I only vaccinated my dogs every 3-4 years as adults (had full puppy course and booster at 12 and 24 months)

but they will definitely get their vaccine every year whilst we live up here!!

Two more parvo came in this morning....

[oakway]

Hi Cavalier,

A case of it never rains but it pours.

Sad news to hear indeed.

[Do No Harm]

There were a few confirmed cases in western Sydney a few years ago - if I remember correctly amongst more than one litter of greyhound puppies. I have also seen a suspect case in an unvaccinated adult dog - high index of suspicion for it after a fairly long discussion with a neurologist.

Are Greyhounds particularly susceptible to CDV?

There were other cases affecting Greyhounds in Victoria earlier than that. I found the following in an article by Ian Tizzard BVMS PhD and published in JAVMA, Vol. 196, No. 11, June 1, 1990

"In Australia, in 1968 and 1970, the use of certain batches of ML-CDV in dogs was associated with the development of clinical distemper. Dogs were administered a combination modified-live attenuated CDV/canine adenovirus type-1 vaccine produced in canine kidney tissue culture. Eight to 18 days later, the dogs developed anorexia, listlessness, fever, ocular discharge, and diarrhea. The vaccine was especially virulent for Greyhounds, and up to 50% of vaccinated Greyhounds became sick. Development of nervous system lesions was reflected by observation of signs of aggression, which eventually progressed to incoordination, prostration, convulsions, and death. Dogs survived from 11 to 24 days after onset of signs. At necropsy, eosinophilic intranuclear and cytoplasmic inclusions were found in large neurons, along with nonsuppurative encephalitis and malacia in the ventral pontine gray matter. Electron microscopy revealed nucleocapsids indistinguishable from those of CDV lesions."

[Do No Harm]

We still see distemper quite regularly in the remote North West of WA.

Is from the camp dogs spreading it ?.

It is - but there is also a large number of people in the town who do not vaccinate their dogs. As there is such a large percetage of the population unvaccinated these diseases still spread around.

This surprises me I'm afraid. I worked in the NW of WA for several years from 1969 and my employment involved field trips over extensive areas to work on aboriginal reserves, missions, settlements etc as well as town work. I'd just acquired my first dog as a pup and as there were no veterinarians around in those days I had his vaccine flown up on the RFDS plane then gave it to him myself. He was not vaccinated after that until we moved to Perth many years later. While in the NW, he accompanied me on my field trips and was exposed to the aboriginal camp dogs and town dogs even though he was not himself a free ranging dog.

The aboriginal camp dogs typically were very malnourished. Mange was very common and infestation with internal and external parasites was always present. However, in my own expereince and that of my colleagues throughout the state there were no known outbreaks of distemper or canine infectious hepatitis among the camp dogs or town dogs in those days. The population of the whole of WA was then less than 1 million. There were no vets in most WA regions let alone isolated areas and certainly none of the aboriginal camp dogs had ever had a vaccination.

Whatever herd immunity existed was not the result of vaccination!

Also, I understand that the distemper virus, once outside the body cells of the host, is easily destroyed by sunlight or even exposure to room temperature for 4 days.

Obviously, against all this I cannot help but be skeptical about claims of distemper cases in the NW of WA. Also, what ever happened to the beneficial sunlight up there?

The timing of these distemper outbreaks co-inciding with the AVA's new recommendations that adult dogs not be vaccinated more frequently than every three years (based on WSAVA guidelines and knowledge that immunity following successful vaccination lasts a minimum of 7 years) is a little suspicious particularly when combined with the results of an industry survey reported in 1995 showing that "91% of (Australian) vets felt a change from annual vaccinations would have an adverse effect on their practice turnover" (Ref Virbac Newsletter August 1995).

I cannot help but wonder what is really going on here. It does seem rather odd!

Edited August 30, 2009 by Do No Harm

[Jed]

I know of one case in Q - near Tarome, definitely confirmed. Foxie which only received 1 puppy vaccination. Believed that he caught it from foxes.

Distemper is spread by foxes, and from what I've read, it is believed it is in most fox populations.

Vaccinating your dog annually is more likely to make it susceptible to distemper. As it is to make the dog more susceptible to parvo etc. according to research.

Prior to the parvo combined vacs, it was believed that dogs being in contact with other dogs, public places etc. continually increased immunity. Can't see why that still wouldn't hold true.

[Cavalier]

Vaccinating your dog annually is more likely to make it susceptible to distemper. As it is to make the dog more susceptible to parvo etc. according to research.

Prior to the parvo combined vacs, it was believed that dogs being in contact with other dogs, public places etc. continually increased immunity. Can't see why that still wouldn't hold true.

What research is this???

Prior to parvo vaccinations huge numbers of dogs died from parvo virus infections. It is now preventable....

[Cavalier]

We still see distemper quite regularly in the remote North West of WA.

Is from the camp dogs spreading it ?.

It is - but there is also a large number of people in the town who do not vaccinate their dogs. As there is such a large percetage of the population unvaccinated these diseases still spread around.

This surprises me I'm afraid. I worked in the NW of WA for several years from 1969 and my employment involved field trips over extensive areas to work on aboriginal reserves, missions, settlements etc as well as town work. I'd just acquired my first dog as a pup and as there were no veterinarians around in those days I had his vaccine flown up on the RFDS plane then gave it to him myself. He was not vaccinated after that until we moved to Perth many years later. While in the NW, he accompanied me on my field trips and was exposed to the aboriginal camp dogs and town dogs even though he was not himself a free ranging dog.

The aboriginal camp dogs typically were very malnourished. Mange was very common and infestation with internal and external parasites was always present. However, in my own expereince and that of my colleagues throughout the state there were no known outbreaks of distemper or canine infectious hepatitis among the camp dogs or town dogs in those days. The population of the whole of WA was then less than 1 million. There were no vets in most WA regions let alone isolated areas and certainly none of the aboriginal camp dogs had ever had a vaccination.

Whatever herd immunity existed was not the result of vaccination!

Also, I understand that the distemper virus, once outside the body cells of the host, is easily destroyed by sunlight or even exposure to room temperature for 4 days.

Obviously, against all this I cannot help but be skeptical about claims of distemper cases in the NW of WA. Also, what ever happened to the beneficial sunlight up there?

The timing of these distemper outbreaks co-inciding with the AVA's new recommendations that adult dogs not be vaccinated more frequently than every three years (based on WSAVA guidelines and knowledge that immunity following successful vaccination lasts a minimum of 7 years) is a little suspicious particularly when combined with the results of an industry survey reported in 1995 showing that "91% of (Australian) vets felt a change from annual vaccinations would have an adverse effect on their practice turnover" (Ref Virbac Newsletter August 1995).

I cannot help but wonder what is really going on here. It does seem rather odd!

Be skeptical all you like - the situation up here is, Im sure, a lot different to what it was in 1969. All our cases of distemper up here have been confirmed. In all cases the dogs were unvaccinated, came from multi-dog households and were allowed to roam the streets.

Can I ask - how do you know there were no cases of distemper or hepatitis while you were in the NW? Were you testing sick dogs??

[Do No Harm]

[quote name='Cavalier' date='30th Aug 2009 - 11:56 PM' post='3939822'

All our cases of distemper up here have been confirmed. In all cases the dogs were unvaccinated, came from multi-dog households and were allowed to roam the streets.

No claim of endemic disease can be treated lightly. Given what you claim to have knowledge of, it's remarkable that even if the diagnosis was only 'suspected' it isn't making headline news throughout the state and possibly the whole country.

You say all the cases were 'confirmed' but you don't say how! I think under the circumstances one is entitled to ask "HOW?"

You didn't refer to 'possible' cases of canine distemper. You stated as though it has been established as fact when you said "we still see distemper quite regularly in the remote North West of WA". Therefore, I believe it is incumbent on you to substantiate that statement otherwise you risk leaving yourself open to claims of either sensationalizing or scaremongering.

The fact is that vets can and do make mistakes even with very commonly encountered conditions. My own dog was diagnosed as having cataract by 5 different (regular) vets over a period of almost three years. Then we recently saw a specialist veterinary ophthalmologist who said the dog has no signs of cataract at all. She has nuclear sclerosis!

If regular veterinarians see cataracts when none exist, then how can we accept a diagnosis of canine distemper without laboratory and probably post mortem proof of that diagnosis?

Edited August 30, 2009 by Do No Harm

[Do No Harm]

Vaccinating your dog annually is more likely to make it susceptible to distemper. As it is to make the dog more susceptible to parvo etc. according to research.

Prior to the parvo combined vacs, it was believed that dogs being in contact with other dogs, public places etc. continually increased immunity. Can't see why that still wouldn't hold true.

What research is this???

Prior to parvo vaccinations huge numbers of dogs died from parvo virus infections. It is now preventable....

I'd be very interested to know about this research also.

A US trained veterinarian whom I saw recently told me of research done in the US to check rabies titer levels of veterinarians practicing there. Because of exposure risk US vets are vaccinated against rabies and have an option to 'boost' their immune status through re-vaccinating at intervals. He told me of research published in a US veterinary journal which showed that titer levels in 'unboosted' vets remained stable whereas titer levels in vets who were revaccinated decreased.

A normal immune response following exposure to an antigen in the environment is for titer levels to rise in response to that challenge if the exposed animal is immune. For this reason it is often recommended that prior to drawing blood for titer testing dogs are taken to places where recently vaccinated dogs have been so that they are exposured to the vaccine virus shed by the other dog/s. The exposed dog's immune system responds by increasing levels of antibodies (titers).

Edited August 30, 2009 by Do No Harm

[Jed]

Vaccinating your dog annually is more likely to make it susceptible to distemper. As it is to make the dog more susceptible to parvo etc. according to research.

Prior to the parvo combined vacs, it was believed that dogs being in contact with other dogs, public places etc. continually increased immunity. Can't see why that still wouldn't hold true.

What research is this???

Prior to parvo vaccinations huge numbers of dogs died from parvo virus infections. It is now preventable....

Sorry, you misunderstand - and re-reading, I see why. I am not advocating no vac. When dogs were vac. for distemper is was believed that being in public places where distemper had been boosted immunity - as it does. And the research would still be there - you'd just have to go back decades to find it.

If you are asking about research on vaccinating annually now, look on this forum for validation, or google Dr. Jean Dodds, Dr. Bob Rogers - particularly Dodds. Plenty of research and information there. That was the reason the AVA changed the vac protocol in Aust.

There was a time when there were no parvo vaccinations, dogs were just vaccinated against distemper, there was no parvo.

Of course parvo is preventable.

[Cavalier]

Do no harm....

Im curious to know why you are getting so agro and defensive?

All our cases of distemper were diagnosed by measuring distemper antibody levels (IgM) and from their classical clinical signs. All of the pups were unvaccinated so the positive was not a false one due to vaccination.

The reason it is not making headline news is because this is not a new disease up here - it has always been this way. The only reason we are disgnosing more is because we have many more families

moving up this way to work in the mines and they are bringing their beloved pets with them. The camp dogs dont tend to get brought to the vet when they are sick.

Just had a confirmed case of canine adenovirus today - puppy should be fine thank goodness!

[Do No Harm]

Do no harm....

Im curious to know why you are getting so agro and defensive?

All our cases of distemper were diagnosed by measuring distemper antibody levels (IgM) and from their classical clinical signs. All of the pups were unvaccinated so the positive was not a false one due to vaccination.

The reason it is not making headline news is because this is not a new disease up here - it has always been this way. The only reason we are disgnosing more is because we have many more families

moving up this way to work in the mines and they are bringing their beloved pets with them. The camp dogs dont tend to get brought to the vet when they are sick.

Just had a confirmed case of canine adenovirus today - puppy should be fine thank goodness!

Cavalier

'Agro', 'defensive'??? No! I was (and remain) simply stunned by what you have claimed.

It is a matter of concern, from the perspective of epidemiology, that dogs in the NW of WA are being diagnosed with distemper (and adenovirus). It brings in factors like clinical assessment and systemic involvement, the criteria for a definitive diagnosis, statistics and monitoring. That is all, but it sounds like the situation where you are is so bad it perhaps warrants some input and involvement from elsewhere. We have a National Notifiable Diseases Surveillance for humans but regrettably there is no equivalent for our companion animals!

You may have no way of knowing this, but only last Tuesday there was a vet speaking on the radio here in Perth. He stated he has been in practice for 41 years and remembers seeing distemper ‘in those (long ago) years’. Modern day vets apparently have not seen actual cases of distemper and he feared that should we all become complacent about vaccinating then deadly diseases like distemper "will come back again”.

Then, only 4 days later, you posted that you see distemper “quite regularly”.

[poodlefan]

You may have no way of knowing this, but only last Tuesday there was a vet speaking on the radio here in Perth. He stated he has been in practice for 41 years and remembers seeing distemper ‘in those (long ago) years’. Modern day vets apparently have not seen actual cases of distemper and he feared that should we all become complacent about vaccinating then deadly diseases like distemper "will come back again”.

Then, only 4 days later, you posted that you see distemper “quite regularly”.

As far as the difference between what an urban vet in a major city sees and the situation in some outback communities, some of those outback communites might as well be on Mars. You are talking about essentially third world conditions. You don't see a lot of things in the big smokes. That doesn't mean they don't occur.

There used to be a DOLer that helped in the vet outreach program that visited remote communities. It was pretty tough work.

Edited September 1, 2009 by poodlefan

[Cavalier]

Do no harm....

Im curious to know why you are getting so agro and defensive?

All our cases of distemper were diagnosed by measuring distemper antibody levels (IgM) and from their classical clinical signs. All of the pups were unvaccinated so the positive was not a false one due to vaccination.

The reason it is not making headline news is because this is not a new disease up here - it has always been this way. The only reason we are disgnosing more is because we have many more families

moving up this way to work in the mines and they are bringing their beloved pets with them. The camp dogs dont tend to get brought to the vet when they are sick.

Just had a confirmed case of canine adenovirus today - puppy should be fine thank goodness!

Cavalier

'Agro', 'defensive'??? No! I was (and remain) simply stunned by what you have claimed.

It is a matter of concern, from the perspective of epidemiology, that dogs in the NW of WA are being diagnosed with distemper (and adenovirus). It brings in factors like clinical assessment and systemic involvement, the criteria for a definitive diagnosis, statistics and monitoring. That is all, but it sounds like the situation where you are is so bad it perhaps warrants some input and involvement from elsewhere. We have a National Notifiable Diseases Surveillance for humans but regrettably there is no equivalent for our companion animals!

You may have no way of knowing this, but only last Tuesday there was a vet speaking on the radio here in Perth. He stated he has been in practice for 41 years and remembers seeing distemper ‘in those (long ago) years’. Modern day vets apparently have not seen actual cases of distemper and he feared that should we all become complacent about vaccinating then deadly diseases like distemper "will come back again”.

Then, only 4 days later, you posted that you see distemper “quite regularly”.

I would bet my life that vet has never worked in the NW of WA before.... I worked for many years in Perth and the south west and not once did I see distemper

or adenovirus either. As Poodle fan has stated - remote communities in the North west are completely different to Perth and other major cities.

In the veterinary community we do have a disease surveillence system however, distemper and adenovirus are not notifiable diseases.

I am not "claiming" that we regularly see distemper up here. I am stating it as a fact.

The reason I bring it up is people need to be aware of this when they move up here and bring their dogs to ensure they are completely up to date with the

vaccinations as unvaccinated dogs are at much higher risk of contracting parvo, distemper and hepatitis than in major cities.

[Do No Harm]

The reason I bring it up is people need to be aware of this when they move up here and bring their dogs to ensure they are completely up to date with the

vaccinations as unvaccinated dogs are at much higher risk of contracting parvo, distemper and hepatitis than in major cities.

Please are you able to be specific then? Precisely where is this threat and how extensive is the range? You have indicated you are in the NW of WA and both the Kimberly and Pilbara are very vast regions in that part of the state. My neighbor works in the mines up that way (two weeks away and two weeks back) and he's heard nothing about it. He has three dogs of his own which he leaves here, but is passionate about dogs in general and always has his ear to the ground picking up bits of information.

Obviously dogs that lack immunity are at risk should they be exposed, but perhaps you can also clarify what you mean by "completely up to date with the vaccinations .....".

A Post Script here....

Someone has just sent me this link to the WSAVA wesbite http://www.wsava.org/SAC.htm If you scroll down the page there's a further link to the VGG 2007 which is perhaps the most authoritiative and up to date scientific thoughts on vaccinations and the more important matters, in my own opinion, of establishing individual and herd immunity.

It looks like the Sydney Morning Herald article that appeared early last month has been taken on board by the WSAVA because there's a link on its website to that article.

Anyway, its all being shared here for anyone reading this who is interested enough to ask questions and seek the answers.

Edited September 1, 2009 by Do No Harm

[Cavalier]

The reason I bring it up is people need to be aware of this when they move up here and bring their dogs to ensure they are completely up to date with the

vaccinations as unvaccinated dogs are at much higher risk of contracting parvo, distemper and hepatitis than in major cities.

Please are you able to be specific then? Precisely where is this threat and how extensive is the range? You have indicated you are in the NW of WA and both the Kimberly and Pilbara are very vast regions in that part of the state. My neighbor works in the mines up that way (two weeks away and two weeks back) and he's heard nothing about it. He has three dogs of his own which he leaves here, but is passionate about dogs in general and always has his ear to the ground picking up bits of information.

Obviously dogs that lack immunity are at risk should they be exposed, but perhaps you can also clarify what you mean by "completely up to date with the vaccinations .....".

All the dogs I have seen with distemper were puppies under the age of 6 months who had never had a vaccination. I would consider a pup who has not had all 3 primary vaccinations not up to date.

I am not going to disclose my exact location on a public forum, however I can tell you I am in a major north west town and from discussions I have had with the other vets in the North West (There is only Karratha, Port Hedland, Newman, Broome and Kununurra), all 4 vet clinics still see distemper in the towns.

The mines are a huge distance away from the major towns, we dont publicise what diseases we are seeing on a regular basis in the local newpapers - thats just ridiculous. So of course a mine worker is not going to hear about a case of distemper in a town 700ks away.

We do however discuss the risk with our clients when they bring puppies in for vaccination. We recommend they do not take their puppies out walking or socialising until 7-10 days after their 14-16 weeks vaccination. The local dog club with not accept puppies for puppy pre-school (not will our clinic) until after the 14-16 week vaccination.