Mym Posted August 28, 2009 Share Posted August 28, 2009 (edited) Just thought that this could be a spot to swap ideas on training issues etc. Not into flaming - so keep it nice My biggest challenge is tugging! I have a big sable collie that will tug like there is no tomorrow at home but will only chase a ball at training. I have tried and tried but he just looks at it like I dropped a hand grenade at his feet. Thank you to huski who advised me I had this in General Discussion Edited August 28, 2009 by Mym Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leopuppy04 Posted August 28, 2009 Share Posted August 28, 2009 I sympathise!!!! My Aussie used to be the same . Will he tug when you are waiting your turn at agility?! That's how I built it up - so food/ ball as a reward for the run and a tug while we wait. Gradually I introduced the tug into the run also He now tugs wonderfully I say slow and steady wins the race What type of tugs are you using? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leopuppy04 Posted August 28, 2009 Share Posted August 28, 2009 ETA - you might find these interesting too http://susangarrett.wordpress.com/2009/01/...-motivated-dog/ http://susangarrett.wordpress.com/2009/03/...-tug-toy-ideas/ http://susangarrett.wordpress.com/2009/03/17/tug-drive/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mym Posted August 28, 2009 Author Share Posted August 28, 2009 We use a toy bone that he loves to use at home, I bought a ball that has rope coming out each end, and I guess he loves to tug on these at home. The ball is definitely his toy of choice though. I do need to rev him up at agility, funny but he is offering socks that get left around the house.....reckon I could take a few odd socks to training??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mym Posted August 28, 2009 Author Share Posted August 28, 2009 (edited) Ah! Leopuppy....I have just bitten the bullet and bought Susan Garrets dvd's! Waiting for them in the post as I write. Shall read the articles. Is one of them about putting the toy in broth so they like the smell? I should add that it has been a long road with this dog, he was starved before becoming an RSPCA dog and was very 'shut down'. We started agility to socialise him and now we are a bit addicted to it And...yep, she lists the Dirty Sock in her list you linked me too! Edited August 28, 2009 by Mym Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leopuppy04 Posted August 28, 2009 Share Posted August 28, 2009 We use a toy bone that he loves to use at home, I bought a ball that has rope coming out each end, and I guess he loves to tug on these at home. The ball is definitely his toy of choice though. I do need to rev him up at agility, funny but he is offering socks that get left around the house.....reckon I could take a few odd socks to training??? :p :D I would use whatever he LOVES the most and keep it solely for training. A few questions: *Will he tug with those toys in the park? *Will he tug with those toys if you have a ball in your hand? Mine LOVE Sheepskin... or even dry bed - so using old dry bed, knotting it and using that as a tug ANYTHING can be a tug, we just need to make it interesting :D If he loves socks - how about a chicken neck in a couple of old socks, knot that and use it as a tug?! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mym Posted August 28, 2009 Author Share Posted August 28, 2009 Think I am going to make a rope of all the old socks here! How hilarious! The only time I have managed to get him tugging outside of the house is in the driveway, I can rough house with him and then offer the tug. Point that I think I have missed is that these toys are always around on the floor. Think I have missed that I need to keep it just for training. Seriously, I have about 50 odd socks in a basket here....could be the cheapest tug I have got. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4Kelpies Posted August 28, 2009 Share Posted August 28, 2009 Why do you think it is important for your dog to tug? My oldest dog was never interested in tugging. I could get him to take a firm hold of a toy and move back a little but no more. I would let go of the toy to let him win, but he would always immediately give it back to me. It didn't stop him from earning 19 agility titles in ANKC and NADAC. My black and tan Kelpie is far too much of a lady to ever tug or engage in any rough behaviour (except with sheep) and she earned three agility titles before we went "sheeping." I used to leave my dogs well back from the starting line and then walk out to give myself as good a start as I could because I'm such a slow runner and my dogs would cross the starting line at top speed. Since then the chiropractor who treats my dogs told me she doesn't agree with people revving up their dogs through tugging as it can cause neck injuries. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leopuppy04 Posted August 28, 2009 Share Posted August 28, 2009 mym - if you cant' get a tug anywhere out of the house then I would start there first go to the park or driveway, tug for a bit before switching to balls/ food :D That way you can 'transfer the value' of the other rewards to the tug itself :p Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mym Posted August 28, 2009 Author Share Posted August 28, 2009 Good point 4Kelpies, maybe what I am trying to build is drive. LOL....haven't seen many kelpies with that problem Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vickie Posted August 28, 2009 Share Posted August 28, 2009 (edited) Mym, is there any chance you are a little more self conscious at training? I know a few dogs who will tug (and do agility) with heaps of motivation at home, but not out in public. Sometimes it is the dog reacting to the environment, but often it is the handler who is unable to let loose in public as they can at home. The dog is often responding to a different energy from the handler. A way to test this is to have a game of tug with your dog at home as you normally would. Then do it again, but this time video it, with the intention of putting it on the internet for others to see. Just an idea, I may be on the wrong track, but it is something I have seen a lot in agility. Edited August 28, 2009 by Vickie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mym Posted August 28, 2009 Author Share Posted August 28, 2009 Vickie, I am certain that I am more self conscious at training-but it would make sense if my dog is too, after all that is what I am projecting. I am off to a workshop tomorrow that is going to provide video feedback as well. Will be interesting to see it. Also, leopuppy04 suggests some links....went off to read a very interesting one about inadverdantly shaping the dog NOT to tug by offering rewards because the dog is losing interest in the tug. This is awesome feedback people - Thank You! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JulesP Posted August 28, 2009 Share Posted August 28, 2009 I am glad you wrote that 4kelpies as my borders are very polite too about tugging. You can use a ball to create drive. You don't have to actually tug. If you are in NSW I would contact Steve at K9 Force, he does great drive training. Bit hard to explain over the net. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vickie Posted August 28, 2009 Share Posted August 28, 2009 Vickie, I am certain that I am more self conscious at training-but it would make sense if my dog is too, after all that is what I am projecting. I am off to a workshop tomorrow that is going to provide video feedback as well. Will be interesting to see it. Let us know how you go. I have worked through this with a couple of people now. We started by them sending video to me, then video online, then 1 on 1 in person with a someone they know, then 1 on 1 with someone they didn't know, then a small group, then a large group. It seemed to help a lot. I think we all have degrees of this, the difference is that some dogs pick up on it more than others. The other thing is that tugging techniques can vary quite a lot. All my dogs tug pretty well but I am not ashamed to admit that there are a couple of people they tug harder & better with than me. Those people have perfected the art of tugging, not an easy thing for everyone to do. Also be aware that as far as tugging for motivation, things can kind of go in a circle...the more they enjoy the tug, the more motivated they are to get it, but it can go the other way too. The more motivated they are for an activity, the more likely they are to accept a tug as a reward. LOL, hard to explain, not sure if that makes sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4Kelpies Posted August 28, 2009 Share Posted August 28, 2009 Good point 4Kelpies, maybe what I am trying to build is drive. LOL....haven't seen many kelpies with that problem :D True but then you haven't seen me at the starting post with Holly - jumping around like an idiot, getting her to bark and generally trying to rev her up. Then I send her on a cast hoping and praying that she won't run out of oomph while she gets slower and slower and eventually walks to the sheep. Once the sheep move she's fine and comes to life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jigsaw Posted August 28, 2009 Share Posted August 28, 2009 When you think about it when he has a ball in his mouth he's able to turn his head and look around and check out things. When he's tugging he's looking at you and may have his back to other dogs which might leave him feeling uncomfortable. Sometimes dogs are influenced by environmental pressure when tugging in a strange place, as it may leave them vulnerable to other dogs or people that may be nearby. It might be a case of building up your dog's confidence to tug in different places. Start by trying some distance away from other dogs, you might have to experiment to find out where he's most comfortable. Try when on a familiar walk or in a regularly used park and see if he'll tug there. Can you rev him up without using the tug at all in different environments? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huski Posted August 28, 2009 Share Posted August 28, 2009 I am glad you wrote that 4kelpies as my borders are very polite too about tugging. You can use a ball to create drive. You don't have to actually tug. If you are in NSW I would contact Steve at K9 Force, he does great drive training. Bit hard to explain over the net. Steve does a distance package on drive training I have a dog here whose like that too, Jules, he won't tug with me at all, but has a pretty high prey drive when it comes to balls, especially squeaky ones like cuz toys. He's got the softest mouth, he is just too much of a gentleman to tug Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mym Posted August 28, 2009 Author Share Posted August 28, 2009 This is great! So much to consider. Jigsaw, I hadn't considered that - and it would make sense as to why he is less likely to tug in public. As for his motivation, this dog LOVES the ball. He is also very happy to deliver it back to my hand on request which had me thinking about how this isn't such a bad alternative to tugging. But, I am starting to see that I can't always play fetch with him and tugging would make life easier. Have also found that over time - the drive towards the ball is not as full on as it once was. The tip on the link leopuppy posted about inadverdantly shaping the dog was interesting. I am also interested to know that not every agility dog tugs....how important do people feel tugging is? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meea Posted August 28, 2009 Share Posted August 28, 2009 horses for courses I think - I don't do it - my ACD is too enthused about agility to care about tugging - if he was any more reved up he'd be psycho and my hounds are way too well mannered to do anything so uncouth as tug!! Maybe you need to find something else for your chap - the more embarrasing the better probably. I used to have a hound who got exited when I sang! Damn him. Try that at a trial Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JulesP Posted August 28, 2009 Share Posted August 28, 2009 I find the only angst with the not tugging is sending over a jump but if the dog will chase the ball over the jump then that would work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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