Hormone Implant In Lieu Of Neutering

[FranVT]

Last night at obedience training I was talking to our trainer and told her that we had not decided yet whether we wanted to breed from Atlas as he is full register and has lovely bloodlines and our breeder thinks we should, but we want to make sure we do all our research and do everything the right way. I said that I thought neutering would take the (mild) dominance behaviour out of him and she said "well I got my dog a hormone implant that acts in the same way, why don't you try that? It lasts for 2 years". I thought that sounded tops but the 2 vets I called today (our usual vet and one just around the corner) have never heard of it.

Has anyone here heard of it? If so, what is your opinion?

[Sandra777]

Yes I have heard of it, can't recall the name right now though so not a lot of help. I thought it lasted a much shorter time that 2 years though?

But I have to ask - why bother. Why not manage the behaviour you perceive as being a problem instead of covering it up?

Edited August 26, 2009 by Sandra777

[rijbiz]

I've come across people who have used it too, although having a bitch myself I'm afraid I can't be of more help than that.

But like Sandra777 I too thought it lasted a much shorter time period.

[poodlefan]

I think the trainer may have been talking about Suprelorin. The implant lasts 6 months or 12 months, not 2 years.

There are a number of discussions here on DOL about it if you do a search.

Here is one.

Sounds like your vets are a bit out of date.

Edited August 26, 2009 by poodlefan

[FranVT]

Yes I have heard of it, can't recall the name right now though so not a lot of help. ;) I thought it lasted a much shorter time that 2 years though?

But I have to ask - why bother. Why not manage the behaviour you perceive as being a problem instead of covering it up?

Definitely doing that - even if we do the hormone implant thing we will certainly still work as hard as we can (as we are doing now) to curb his "enthusiasm". His dominance comes out in not paying much attention to me when we go to dog obedience or on walks, as well as stuff like getting up on the back of the couch to lie down behind me in the "highest" spot (see pic). So I'm not massively worried he's not aggressive towards people at all, only sometimes towards dogs if he thinks they are threatening me (what a gentleman ) but I know that this is still behaviour that has to be nipped in the bud. He's only 20 months old.

I've come across people who have used it too, although having a bitch myself I'm afraid I can't be of more help than that.

But like Sandra777 I too thought it lasted a much shorter time period.

Good to know! I guess I will keep doing my research, I am interested in whether there is a reason my vet doesn't do it (I only spoke to a receptionist/nurse) so I might give her a call and make an appointment. I just wondered whether any DOLers had used it to any good effect.

Pic:

[FranVT]

I think the trainer may have been talking about Suprelorin. The implant lasts 6 months or 12 months, not 2 years.

There are a number of discussions here on DOL about it if you do a search.

Here is one.

Sounds like your vets are a bit out of date. :p

Thanks! I should have done a search first, sorry

Maybe they are out of date - we are regional Central QLD after all!

Thanks poodlefan (I am also a poodle fan - recently sent the poodle my mum bought when my parents divorced to the rainbow bridge after 12 years ;) ).

[poodlefan]

I think the trainer may have been talking about Suprelorin. The implant lasts 6 months or 12 months, not 2 years.

There are a number of discussions here on DOL about it if you do a search.

Here is one.

Sounds like your vets are a bit out of date.

Thanks! I should have done a search first, sorry :p

Maybe they are out of date - we are regional Central QLD after all! ;)

Thanks poodlefan (I am also a poodle fan - recently sent the poodle my mum bought when my parents divorced to the rainbow bridge after 12 years ).

Ted my oldest Mini Poodle boy turns 12 today

A friend of mine has her boy on Suprelorin. It definitely does seem to take the edge of the "bulletproof teenage boy" behaviour but does shrink the testicles considerably.

[FranVT]

I think the trainer may have been talking about Suprelorin. The implant lasts 6 months or 12 months, not 2 years.

There are a number of discussions here on DOL about it if you do a search.

Here is one.

Sounds like your vets are a bit out of date.

Thanks! I should have done a search first, sorry :p

Maybe they are out of date - we are regional Central QLD after all! ;)

Thanks poodlefan (I am also a poodle fan - recently sent the poodle my mum bought when my parents divorced to the rainbow bridge after 12 years ).

Ted my oldest Mini Poodle boy turns 12 today

A friend of mine has her boy on Suprelorin. It definitely does seem to take the edge of the "bulletproof teenage boy" behaviour but does shrink the testicles considerably.

Atlas sure does have gigantic testicles, I wouldn't mind them being shrunk, esp. as they are very pink and sunscreening them is not my favourite job! Teehee..

[poodlefan]

Atlas sure does have gigantic testicles, I wouldn't mind them being shrunk, esp. as they are very pink and sunscreening them is not my favourite job! Teehee..

Maybe he needs a special lycra pouch for them.

[FranVT]

Atlas sure does have gigantic testicles, I wouldn't mind them being shrunk, esp. as they are very pink and sunscreening them is not my favourite job! Teehee..

Maybe he needs a special lycra pouch for them.

Yeah like a little sunsuit that goes over and straps over his rump or something! You are onto something here poodlefan I think we should go into business together ;)

[poodlefan]

Atlas sure does have gigantic testicles, I wouldn't mind them being shrunk, esp. as they are very pink and sunscreening them is not my favourite job! Teehee..

Maybe he needs a special lycra pouch for them.

Yeah like a little sunsuit that goes over and straps over his rump or something! You are onto something here poodlefan I think we should go into business together ;)

Not sure I want to go on "The Inventors" to promote the Protector Pouch. You and Atlas can do that.

Edited August 26, 2009 by poodlefan

[Sandra777]

Atlas sure does have gigantic testicles, I wouldn't mind them being shrunk, esp. as they are very pink and sunscreening them is not my favourite job! Teehee..

Maybe he needs a special lycra pouch for them.

Budgie Smugglers for Bullys

;) :p :p :p

FranCQ - if you don't want Atlas to lie "above you" then make him get off. Don't even let it start - not that I believe half the stuff you have mentioned is actually an issue, but that's JMO He's a Bull Terrier - a degree of DA is part of the breed, you can't train out the hard wiring!

[FranVT]

Not sure I want to go on "The Inventors" to promote the Protector Pouch. You and Atlas can do that.

Oh my god can you imagine! Hahahaha oh my god I am laughing so hard at the image of me trying to "demonstrate" that on national TV!

FranCQ - if you don't want Atlas to lie "above you" then make him get off. Don't even let it start - not that I believe half the stuff you have mentioned is actually an issue, but that's JMO He's a Bull Terrier - a degree of DA is part of the breed, you can't train out the hard wiring!

Totally, I never let him do it anymore, I used to think it was cute when he was a puppy and when I was more ignorant than I am now (still fairly ignorant!). I let him lie up there (he falls asleep straight away) to take a photo for proof, then made him get down. I don't even let him up anymore. Not ideal but I figure better late than never.

He also sleeps in our bed ;) :p just down the end near our feet....... under the blankets ..... *hangs head in shame*

Yep his DA is not that bad at all, he plays really well with other doggies especially submissive ones with enough confidence to play back. My mum's toy poodle (she got him when our mini died) Jack is very dominant and is actually the only dog I have ever seen Atlas bow down to, even on At's own territory! Hahahah it is so hilarious. I just want to do the best I can for his breed and his hard-wiring so that it doesn't become a problem.

Edited August 26, 2009 by FranCQ

[Sandra777]

He also sleeps in our bed ;) just down the end near our feet....... under the blankets ..... *hangs head in shame*

Best dog I even had slept on my bed all her life, with her head on the pillow. She was totally obedient but the absolute boss of all the other dogs so not "submissive".

[FranVT]

He also sleeps in our bed ;) just down the end near our feet....... under the blankets ..... *hangs head in shame*

Best dog I even had slept on my bed all her life, with her head on the pillow. She was totally obedient but the absolute boss of all the other dogs so not "submissive".

At jumps up on the bed and lies on the pillows, I tell him "get to the end!" and he hops up and wiggles his way under the blankets. Some guard dog hey!

I think I'll wait 'til At's next appointment at the vet's to discuss it, I don't think they really do phone calls and I don't want to pay $55 just for a chat with no actual doggie consultation.

[Nekhbet]

think of it this way if you have trouble now in his teenage stage how will you handle a testosterone fueled breeding male?

desexing may or may not make a difference. In all probability it can take the edge off it but his habits, behaviors and what he gets away with are all dictated by YOU not testosterone. If his behaviors were extreme then I would say cut them out and dont breed him, but he's just being a teenager. Yes it's a pain in the butt but it will pass and it's up to you to ride it out.

His dominance comes out in not paying much attention to me when we go to dog obedience or on walks, as well as stuff like getting up on the back of the couch to lie down behind me in the "highest" spot (see pic). So I'm not massively worried he's not aggressive towards people at all, only sometimes towards dogs if he thinks they are threatening me

partially dominance and mostly having gotten away with blue murder so far with you guys

if he tries to get on the couch push him off

if he doesnt listen MAKE him listen. Feed him only out of your hand, give him a correction etc Hormones a not driving this behavior as I see the same in desexed dogs and bitches. He's just trying to rule the roost and needs to be taken down a couple of pegs.

I have a 60kg entire male and he listens. He can even leave and ignore an entire bitch if I say so, it comes down to consistancy in training and persistance. Dont let the dog win ;)

[sas]

I'd be really inclined to reccomend you have a session with a behaviourist rather than getting the implant because I don't believe the implant is going to address the behaviours you are referring to as you allow them to occur by not letting the dog relax into a subordinate position in your pack.

My boy is on his 2nd implant and some of the humping of other dogs minimised but everything else is exactly the same....small tighter balls mind you.

If you want to try Superlorin, there is no harm but I think everything will remain as it is unless you make the neccessary changes.

I don't know about BT Breeders but if the dog has DA (from the hard wiring of the breed) would you not breed from it so you're improving upon the breed?

Edited August 26, 2009 by sas

[FranVT]

think of it this way if you have trouble now in his teenage stage how will you handle a testosterone fueled breeding male?

desexing may or may not make a difference. In all probability it can take the edge off it but his habits, behaviors and what he gets away with are all dictated by YOU not testosterone. If his behaviors were extreme then I would say cut them out and dont breed him, but he's just being a teenager. Yes it's a pain in the butt but it will pass and it's up to you to ride it out.

His dominance comes out in not paying much attention to me when we go to dog obedience or on walks, as well as stuff like getting up on the back of the couch to lie down behind me in the "highest" spot (see pic). So I'm not massively worried he's not aggressive towards people at all, only sometimes towards dogs if he thinks they are threatening me

partially dominance and mostly having gotten away with blue murder so far with you guys

if he tries to get on the couch push him off

if he doesnt listen MAKE him listen. Feed him only out of your hand, give him a correction etc Hormones a not driving this behavior as I see the same in desexed dogs and bitches. He's just trying to rule the roost and needs to be taken down a couple of pegs.

I have a 60kg entire male and he listens. He can even leave and ignore an entire bitch if I say so, it comes down to consistancy in training and persistance. Dont let the dog win :D

Thank you so much! We are being super consistent and much more firm with him and your comment about getting away with blue murder so far is spot on! He was so cute and had such a sweet disposition that we were a bit slack with him but we are taking control again now. When you say "make" him listen, what could I do to do this? My trainer suggested that when we're walking to do lots of left and right turns and if he's not paying attention he'll get walked into and dragged along. This doesn't seem to work as he simply doesn't mind being walked over or into or anything! I try to do the "watch!" command and reward him when he watches, but he is not super keen on treats really (except McDonalds fries and I can't just be giving him those all the time) and at dog obedience any progress we've made goes out the window as he only wants to sniff the ground and get to the other dogs to play.

I'd be really inclined to reccomend you have a session with a behaviourist rather than getting the implant because I don't believe the implant is going to address the behaviours you are referring to as you allow them to occur by not letting the dog relax into a subordinate position in your pack.

My boy is on his 2nd implant and some of the humping of other dogs minimised but everything else is exactly the same....small tighter balls mind you.

If you want to try Superlorin, there is no harm but I think everything will remain as it is unless you make the neccessary changes.

I don't know about BT Breeders but if the dog has DA (from the hard wiring of the breed) would you not breed from it so you're improving upon the breed?

If we thought Atlas had any ACTUAL DA that will be life-long, we would NEVER breed from him as we want to not only improve the breed but make sure we are not contributing to the bad rep that these dogs have. I honestly believe it is just my lack of dominance (he is actually my partner's dog but I undertake most of the training, hahaha) and like you said his dominant as opposed to insubordinate position in the pack that is causing the TINY, TINY bit of DA we've seen. I have never seen him go for a dog unprovoked, and only seen him react to provocation once or twice. I 100% agree that we would NEVER breed from him if we thought the DA was a "permanent" issue. The other day in obedience we were told to do an exercise where we approach another handler and their dog and pretend we're meeting in the street for a chat. I put Atlas into a drop/stay and the other lady who had a VERY excitable little cavalier was the one having problems, Atlas just lay on his tummy wagging his tail madly and looking up at me like "please that doggie is being silly and running around can I please get up please c'mon I want to play!" but he did not move an inch or try to get up even though this dog was just about jumping all over him. He is getting so much better.

I would still love to see a behaviourist though! There aren't any anywhere near me, I'd have to take him 600+km away to Brisbane. Which I would not hesitate to do if at any time in the future I thought it was even slightly becoming a problem.

[Nekhbet]

have you tried a check chain?

simple. Nothing in life is free. You want something you work for it. You mess up, you get a consequence. Keep him hungry as well to make food a reward for good behavior not just something he gets for existing. Dont be afraid that if he's really pushing the point not to give him his dinner and make him wait until he's better behaved.

When he wants to pull simply walk in the opposite direction and give little sharp pops on the lead (you can do this with any collar) and loudly call in a super happy voice 'come on come come come GOOD DOG' when he follows. Make yourself fun. YOu have to GAIN the dogs attention instead of just walking all over him. They really learn nothing except mum and dad walk in a silly way and I get trod on and in trouble You have to make him WANT to follow and praise every time he does something right, especially just looking at you, and jackpot with food when he's really really good. I dont pull the dog as they just lean back and dig the heels in. Also if he passes without reacting - more praise.

[FranVT]

Yep we are using a check chain and he is SO much better on that than a flat collar! He doesn't really pull on the lead when we're walking unless he wants to get to something and I do the "pop" method on the collar if he does that. I think it's because I just chat away to him all the time that he has learned to ignore my prattle! In our class we were doing socialisation exercises where we lead the dog through a slalom course of other dogs / handlers and he is really good at that, just looks straight ahead with only occasional glances to the dogs we're going past,

I'm not sure whether it's just that he doesn't like what food we give him (we have tried lots of different kinds of kibble and other foods) or that he doesn't have much of an appetite but he is not really food driven. We can put his food down on the ground for dinner and he will give it a sniff, wander off and have a lie down, maybe play in the yard, come back and eat it later if at all... it's really odd most dogs are drooling for food all the time. The only time he really wants food is when we're eating (we always eat first). It is bizarre.