Training Treats

[kezzzza]

I make my own treats with a very simple recipe only takes about 5 min to prep and about 20 min to cook.

500 gms of any meat (blended to mush) with a little water

1 cup wholemeal flour

1 cup corn maize

1/2 cup skim powdered milk

1/2 cup wheat germ

extra water if needed

2 eggs

mix all together - depending on the meat you may need more water you want a moist mix like a cake mix.

Grease a tray or line with baking paper and spread mix onto it evenly and cook in the oven for around 20 mins at 150 c (fan forced) slice is ready when it come off the paper without moisture at base. Let cool and cut into bite size pieces, can be frozen. Keep in fridge for up to 7 days

I also add carrots, cooked rice, pasta, sesame seeds

you can get the flours from health food shops

My fussy Huskies love them

[megan_]

I also use Ziwipeak's dry food as training treats. It is stinky enough to entice them, but it is dry and you can break it down into teany little pieces. And at $28/kg, it is expensive as food, but much cheaper than most treats I've seen on the market.

The ingredients are also sourced from NZ, which is a big deal to me (I'm not feeding my dogs anything from China any more).

[Mym]

Yes, I was was giving my dogs chicken treats and got the shock of my life when I saw they were from China....

My guys love the Ziwipeak, apparently you can also get a 5kg bag which really brings the price right down. But my local pet shop doesn't carry it

[megan_]

Yes, I was was giving my dogs chicken treats and got the shock of my life when I saw they were from China....

My guys love the Ziwipeak, apparently you can also get a 5kg bag which really brings the price right down. But my local pet shop doesn't carry it

I gete mine from pookinuk.com.au

[Czara]

Praise

Unless your dog isn't motivated by praise :p

Bribes work unless your dog would rather do something else than eat

[huski]

Praise

Unless your dog isn't motivated by praise

Bribes work unless your dog would rather do something else than eat

When I use food in training they aren't used as bribes. What motivates every dog is different, some dogs aren't interested in praise, some dogs are only interested in a tug or food. My dog is mainly interested in scenting but she has a reasonable food drive too

[Czara]

some dogs are only interested in a tug or food. My dog is mainly interested in scenting but she has a reasonable food drive too

Food reinforcement is useful in conditioning puppies to the stimulus/response, but should be gradually phased out, as it does not produce reliable service in a dog. Training a dog to be obedient does not rely on "what the dog is interested in", but teaches a dog to obey (no matter what else they are interested in). Needing more tasty morsels to keep a dog "interested" is not what I would call obedience training.

But each to their own

(I thought Huskies had strong pack instincts, so should be quite motivated to please the leader rather than be waited on??)

[huski]

some dogs are only interested in a tug or food. My dog is mainly interested in scenting but she has a reasonable food drive too

Food reinforcement is useful in conditioning puppies to the stimulus/response, but should be gradually phased out, as it does not produce reliable service in a dog. Training a dog to be obedient does not rely on "what the dog is interested in", but teaches a dog to obey (no matter what else they are interested in). Needing more tasty morsels to keep a dog "interested" is not what I would call obedience training.

But each to their own

(I thought Huskies had strong pack instincts, so should be quite motivated to please the leader rather than be waited on??)

PMSL - nope, Sibes are bred to be independent thinkers. Good luck getting a Sibe to do anything reliably, just because you told them so. They were bred to think independently so they could overrule commands given to them when they realised a situation was potentially dangerous. Huskies are not known for their biddability, they don't really have much desire to please you just for the sake of it

I train my beagle in food drive, no matter how high a level of obedience I get will I never remove food from our training. Have you ever trained a breed like a Beagle to an obedience trialling level, Czara? I'd be really interested in how you'd manage a dog whose drive to scent overruled any training you've ever done with them. It's not even a matter of teaching the dog to obey, it's how you get that level of compliance when their instinct is so strong, without anything but praise you'd never get a dog like a Beagle reliably doing anything but scenting.

Do you think using items like tug toys to train dogs in prey drive should be phased out, too? Why would you phase out the very drive that makes the dog work reliably? To be honest, I'm actually quite gobsmacked that you think no dog that's trained in food or prey drive can produce reliable service

My dogs learn to look to me when we are training because they know I hold the ultimate reward, drive satisfaction, that's not something you can give them with just praise. You are welcome to come and handle my two dogs and get them working 100% reliably with nothing but praise, though ;)

Edited September 8, 2009 by huski

[megan_]

huski - I agree with your post but am curious as to how you would trial given you're not allowed food when competing? My club doesn't even allow treats when getting assessed to move to the next level.

[OSoSwift]

Not sure about Huski,

But my dogs end up working for the period of time a trial requires for one treat.

If you get the treats away from your body, the dog is used to working for a period of time then being released for their treat which may be sitting many metres away, on the edge of the training area for example, or in the back of the car.

I have successfully trained my dog to CDX using treat based training.

[huski]

huski - I agree with your post but am curious as to how you would trial given you're not allowed food when competing? My club doesn't even allow treats when getting assessed to move to the next level.

I do what Seita has basically outlined here:

http://www.dolforums.com.au/index.php?s=&a...t&p=3959269

By the time we trial we will be at a point where I can put food down away from the trial ring, and still have Daisy working in drive, because she knows as soon as I release her she can go and get the food.

Edited September 8, 2009 by huski

[huski]

I have successfully trained my dog to CDX using treat based training.

But training with food doesn't produce reliable service

[Kavik]

some dogs are only interested in a tug or food. My dog is mainly interested in scenting but she has a reasonable food drive too

Food reinforcement is useful in conditioning puppies to the stimulus/response, but should be gradually phased out, as it does not produce reliable service in a dog. Training a dog to be obedient does not rely on "what the dog is interested in", but teaches a dog to obey (no matter what else they are interested in). Needing more tasty morsels to keep a dog "interested" is not what I would call obedience training.

But each to their own

(I thought Huskies had strong pack instincts, so should be quite motivated to please the leader rather than be waited on??)

You do know that working service dogs like those in AQIs/customs/SAR etc are rewarded on the job with food or a game of tug right

[Staranais]

I train my beagle in food drive, no matter how high a level of obedience I get will I never remove food from our training. Have you ever trained a breed like a Beagle to an obedience trialling level, Czara? I'd be really interested in how you'd manage a dog whose drive to scent overruled any training you've ever done with them. It's not even a matter of teaching the dog to obey, it's how you get that level of compliance when their instinct is so strong, without anything but praise you'd never get a dog like a Beagle reliably doing anything but scenting.

Just a thought, but could you make permission to go sniff things contingent on performing obedience for you? Kind of like training in drive, but you're rewarding focus on you by allowing the dog to go sniffing round for a treat (or just sniffing round), rather than getting food or a tug?

Do you think using items like tug toys to train dogs in prey drive should be phased out, too? Why would you phase out the very drive that makes the dog work reliably? To be honest, I'm actually quite gobsmacked that you think no dog that's trained in food or prey drive can produce reliable service

Agree with you, definitely.

I also believe that a dog that has the genetic desire to do the work you're requiring is far easier to train using "praise" alone, than a dog which has no inherent drive to do what you're asking. This is because you're not really just using praise to motivate the dog - you're rewarding the dog by letting it work, and punishing it by denying it the chance to work. So people that rely on training dogs with just praise, or expect the dog to work for the joy of working alone, often have to pick and choose the dogs they work with - they can only train dogs that already have the inclination to do the work.

You can still train the dogs that don't find the work itself rewarding, but you do need to provide an extrinsic reward to make it worth their while, since they don't see being given the chance to work as a reward.

As an example, my current girl has just started SAR training, and if I let her she would probably search for hours with little reward, since she loves to do so (well, she tends to self reward by chomping the victim when she gets too excited, but that's another story!)

Whereas my previous boy was a staffy, definitely not bred for tracking or scenting, I needed to keep the rate of reinforcement much much higher for him when I was training him in scent work, and increase the difficulty of the problems much more slowly, since the activity itself wasn't fun for him.

Both could learn to do the work adequately. But my mally would probably do it just for the sake of it. The staffy wouldn't.

Personally though, I believe that even with dogs that find the work rewarding in itself, getting them working for an external reward still improves reliability and makes the dog more controllable when it is working. So I still try to get my mally to focus on the tug reward, even though she enjoys the search activity itself.

JMO.

Edited September 8, 2009 by Staranais

[Kavik]

As an example, my current girl has just started SAR training, and if I let her she would probably search for hours with little reward, since she loves to do so (well, she tends to self reward by chomping the victim when she gets too excited, but that's another story!)

Whoops! That is too funny

[Staranais]

As an example, my current girl has just started SAR training, and if I let her she would probably search for hours with little reward, since she loves to do so (well, she tends to self reward by chomping the victim when she gets too excited, but that's another story!)

Whoops! That is too funny

Yeah it is, especially if you're not the one pretending to be the victim!

It's just frustration, and I'm hoping she'll stop doing it when she fully understands that it's way more fun to come back and collect me & take me to the victim for the tug game, than to attempt to satisfy her drive by chomping on the victim himself. We're getting there slowly.

In the meantime, I have to ask my long-suffering training partners to do their best to ignore the enthusiastic malligator puppy chomping on their legs when they get "found". :D

[OSoSwift]

I have successfully trained my dog to CDX using treat based training.

But training with food doesn't produce reliable service

I know - must have been a fluke me thinks - she was also doing most of the exercises for UD but had to retire due to Spinal Spondylosis.

ALso all done with me as a very NOVICE trainer who had never done the exercises before and was self taught. Definately a fluke!

[OSoSwift]

As an example, my current girl has just started SAR training, and if I let her she would probably search for hours with little reward, since she loves to do so (well, she tends to self reward by chomping the victim when she gets too excited, but that's another story!)

Whoops! That is too funny

Yeah it is, especially if you're not the one pretending to be the victim!

It's just frustration, and I'm hoping she'll stop doing it when she fully understands that it's way more fun to come back and collect me & take me to the victim for the tug game, than to attempt to satisfy her drive by chomping on the victim himself. We're getting there slowly.

In the meantime, I have to ask my long-suffering training partners to do their best to ignore the enthusiastic malligator puppy chomping on their legs when they get "found".

That is very funny - Norty Malligator!!!!!!

[huski]

Just a thought, but could you make permission to go sniff things contingent on performing obedience for you? Kind of like training in drive, but you're rewarding focus on you by allowing the dog to go sniffing round for a treat (or just sniffing round), rather than getting food or a tug?

I've done this a little bit, but I find that even though Daisy is really scent driven it's not as consistent in some ways as training with food. Sometimes she's more interested in food than she is interested in scenting, and it's hard to guarantee that there will always be a scent around that she wants to follow.

I often do this when we are out on a walk, and we get to the local sports field. I let her have more leash and I let her scent, but I also add a few recalls in there or ask her to do some basic obedience, and then release her back to scenting. I still get better results with food overall though.

I also believe that a dog that has the genetic desire to do the work you're requiring is far easier to train using "praise" alone, than a dog which has no inherent drive to do what you're asking. This is because you're not really just using praise to motivate the dog - you're rewarding the dog by letting it work, and punishing it by denying it the chance to work. So people that rely on training dogs with just praise, or expect the dog to work for the joy of working alone, often have to pick and choose the dogs they work with - they can only train dogs that already have the inclination to do the work.

I totally agree with you

I wouldn't need food or toys to get my dogs to do what they were bred to do (scenting/tracking or sledding). The activity itself is rewarding enough.