Agility For Poorly Trained Dog

[ClareL]

If I could go to a trainer who would gureentee they could fix it I would but no one offers that so why should I give them money for nothing just to be told the same thing over and over again

I have googled and looked everywhere online and not found a differant technique to the ones stated earlier. I have done everything the trainers have said i have been back for numerous sessions to no success. He is slightly better at the trainers but thats it. The longer I work on the training the worse he gets due to the built end energy from not getting walked.

The trainers have been recommended on dol. I have tried I really have and I am really tired of being told a professional trainer can fix it. Unless they have some mircle cure I have tried it, the only thing that has any affect is an easy walker harness but that just makes him not pull so hard.

The biggest problem I think is if he is not getting walked his energy is building up which is why i want something for him to do in the backyard to burn energy tricks dont do that and as he can not go off lead anywhere I have had little success finding something thats why i thought some agility equipment might be good I could get him to burn some energy then try walking.

A trainer doesn't know my dog and all training sessions are just the same standard set up as far as I can tell and it doesn't work on him.

Sorry if I sound snappy but am just sick of being told the same thing time and time again. I teach children and not every child can be treated the same and I feel the same thing goes for dogs

[Vickie]

Sounds like you are resigned to what he is Clare & that is fine...he is your dog, if you are determined that he cannot be fixed & can live with the way he is then there is really no point in people continuing to argue the point.

The biggest problem I think is if he is not getting walked his energy is building up which is why i want something for him to do in the backyard to burn energy tricks dont do that and as he can not go off lead anywhere I have had little success finding something thats why i thought some agility equipment might be good I could get him to burn some energy then try walking.

You are wrong here though. I have yet to see a dog who cannot be tired/settled down by mental stimulation & tricks will certainly achieve this, both general tricks & agility tricks. Many people think a dog with lots of energy just needs to run & run. Doing this can actually have the adverse effect to what you are after.

I can guarantee that if you are prepared to spend some time with him each day & follow advice on here with step by step instructions, we can turn him into a happy stimulated dog who is eager to learn...just by teaching him a few simple tricks. Are you prepared to accept the challenge?

[Cosmolo]

I'm not sure exactly what you've tried but one thing that i have found very beneficial with dogs that have plenty of energy and have issues pulling is to run the dog on a harness (to ensure they still get plenty of exercise) and teach the dog separately on a different kind of collar to loose lead walk. This is in combination with mental stimulation exercises, tricks etc.

The reason why many trainers don't offer guarantees is because they are not the only input into the dog. Its different to having a plumber offer a guarantee for instance because once the plumber leaves, you don't adjust the pipes. All training sessions should not be the 'standard set up' either. Have you asked the trainer you have used about the energy build up?

I think some basic, safe agility in the backyard would be a good idea- you do need to take things slowly, especially if you are doing it alone and ensure the equipment you use is safe for your dog. Have you tried any shaping with your dog? That exhausts my most active intelligent dog in 10 minutes.

[ClareL]

I completely understand the no gureentee but we haven't got a lot of money and trainers are expensive so i am not keen to continue that as we get no where. Already been told group training is no good for him, to which I agree they just move to fast.

Asked about the energy but he doesn't play with toys will only do a couple of sits drop shakes before he decides he is no longer interested. He can't be kept in an off the lead park.

I have never heard of the 2 differant holders one for walking and one for running, probably the best suggestion and will give it a go as previously I was told all pulling was unacceptable. I understand what people are saying with tricks it took 4 weeks for him to drop and still will only do it for food. So as a solution for his energy would take months and most of the tricks on the tricks page are beyond him.

I have never heard of shaping

[Cosmolo]

What and how do you feed him? With dogs that are hard to motivate, i would make him work for his meals rather than presenting them in a bowl. I will try to find the link to a shaping thread i started a few months ago.

I would say that for most dogs yes, all pulling is unacceptable. But there is also no point doing the same things again and again if they're not working and this method does work well for some dogs and owners. What training equipment have you tried?

While i do understand private training is expensive- there is huge variation in prices and if you've been at the top end its possible that some training might be more economical than you think. I know orgs that charge $250+ for a 1 hour session while other very good trainers i know and us charge $70- $100.

[Vickie]

Are you prepared to accept the challenge?

I guess not. oh well.

I understand what people are saying with tricks it took 4 weeks for him to drop and still will only do it for food. So as a solution for his energy would take months and most of the tricks on the tricks page are beyond him.

Then I guess it's easier to give up, but at least acknowlege that there is a possibility that it is the method you are using rather than the dog. For anyone else reading, even dogs who are hard to teach, can learn a trick in a few short sessions, using the right methods.

[Cosmolo]

http://www.dolforums.com.au/index.php?show...&hl=shaping

[Kavik]

As Vickie said, many tricks can be taught in a short amount of time, and several of these can be very useful in agility later on :D These include hand touches, targetting (both nose and paw), rear end awareness, and sending the dog to a food or toy reward, later sending the dog forward on command without being able to see the reward. Many of the things I teach my dog for agility does not require any agility equipment at all.

Shaping is a great way to teach tricks, as the dog learns to work out itself what is wanted with your input, but you need a lot of patience as it is frustrating at the beginning until the dog works out how the game is played.

[ClareL]

Free shaping is the method we used to teach him to sit and drop, shake he copied from the other dog. We have tried hi 10 (as he does this on his own a bit) but he doesn't understand the command and he will walk across the room on his back legs following me (something he would do on his own to start with) Sorry I just didn't know there was a name for it. Its not that I am unwilling to teach him tricks just with the free shaping there are only a few things I can get him to do and like I said it was a great deal of work (even the sit).

Now reading what you have written thats how I was expecting to train him to use equipment in the back yard, luring him through/over.

He has meat loaf stuff and cheese for training sometimes smakos. He has dry food in the morning and a little wet mixed in at night.

I know $70-100 many not sound like much to some people but it is to us, we have tried it.

Vickie, you can say I am using the wrong method but you haven't actually suggested anything just teach it and i am teaching him some, you havent suggested any simple tricks either, but thankyou for the input

Edited August 25, 2009 by ClareL

[Cosmolo]

I definitely didn't mean to make it sound like it wasn't much $$ Clare. I just know some people who have been paying triple that who are shocked to find out there are cheaper options.

Free shaping is not the same as luring so i am a little confused as to exactly how you taught sit and drop? Is your dog food motivated?

Edited August 25, 2009 by Cosmolo

[ClareL]

Sorry I knew I was using the wrong expression, It is definately free shaping we used to get him to sit and drop. Not luring. He is not food motivated, he is walk motivated he will sit next to the front door, and try and make me follow him to the lead cupboard. When we are going for a walk he will wait to have the harness put on very nicely then there is no calming him down, no chance of giving him a treat on a walk he just wants to be at the end of the lead he runs back to sniff the treat then runs back to the end of the lead.

When he escapes (as he is an escape artist) he doesn't run away just tries to make me follow him and stays out of reach

Only other thing he likes to to sit on my doona for a cuddle.

We tried the triangle of temptation and he is quite happy to just wait for his food

Edited August 25, 2009 by ClareL

[Kavik]

No offence but he just sounds like he does not yet understand what is expected - or how to learn so to speak. You said yourself he does not understand hi 10.

I think you need to work on the basics - teach him how to learn so he knows how to earn his rewards, and that rewards come from you and not on his own when he wants them.

As much as I like free shaping I would not use it to teach something as basic as sit and drop, are you sure that is how you did it? Luring seems much more practical for something like that

If he is not interested in his food for training have you tried reducing the amount you feed him in his meals? If he is an adult small breed he should only need one meal a day.

What about toys or balls? Tug? Chasing something?

If there are only a few things you can get him to do it is beccause he does not understand how to learn and that he must follow your direction. If he gets easily distracted start with something simple. Hand touches are a great thing to teach, simple, good for getting attention and keeping them interested.

[Shakti]

Hi Clarel,

I think doing something fun with him in your own backyard is a great idea - good on you for thinking of teh agility equipment! It can definiteoly be made or even bought quite cheaply. You are not wanting to do Agility in competition so you really just want ghim to have fun and that will increase the bond between the two of you as well!

I find that dong Agility also really tires my dog out because he is having to think what to do and how to do it eg the see-saw etc. as well as running, climbing, balancing, jumping, sitting and waiting!

It is definitely easier to do with a dog that at least comes when you call him and sits and waits etc but heck, I think anything you do now is going to make owning him more fun and bring more enjoymentinto his life so go for it!

I am not a trainer but I do have a relatively well-trained dog and would be happy to meet up some time if you like and just see what we can do with our dogs together!

[Kavik]

Sorry Brooke,

But I think any of the contact equipment (A-Frame, dogwalk and especially the seesaw!) is far too dangerous for someone to attempt by themselves with a dog that does not have basic control and understanding of how to learn. You can easily frighten your dog on the seesaw or even injure it due to the movement.

[Shakti]

Yes Kavik - you are right and I mis-spoke. I meant that doing the above-mentioned exercises with my well-trained dog tires him out as he is having to think and combines mental exercise with physical exercise.

The OP may need to play with weave poles or a very low jump of some description that will be safe for her dog and that can still help tire him out and increase their bond.

[megan_]

Hi Clare,

I agree with Kavik's posts - what you've been taught hasn't clicked with him (like you said, different dogs need different methods). I can sympathise with what you're going through. I am very lucky that my boy is very well behaved and walks well on the leash, is focused on me etc but we did struggle a bit at obendience because the methods we were taught (luring) didn't work for him.

I lured food all over the place, and he sat there looking at me. The instructor told me he was defiant and I thought he was a bit slow - he is neither of those things. The instructor told me to just drag his leash into place, push him down etc and we both left training very disheartened.

I had one session with a trainer (had read their posts many times and thought they had a lot of common sense) and things have changes so much for us. She took him through his paces and while it looked like she was doing *exactly* what I was doing, there were subtle differences that made it work.

She also showed me that he could be trained. This changed my attitude and we were successful. In addition to this, she also showed us some motivational tools (eg tug) and that has made training much more fun for both of us (and a good workout for me). Add in a couple of "tricks" (eg touch targetting your hand) and we now have a variety of fun things to do at each session.

We now train everyday and we both enjoy it.

ETA: if you have a JRT, I'm sure they'll *love* the tug. You need to use it correctly though otherwise it turns into a tug-o-war!

Edited August 25, 2009 by megan_

[Gspsplease]

Hi Clare,

I would suggest you try to buy a cheap kids tunnel -- often seen at garage sales -- and make a couple of sandbag holders to keep the ends in place. You and a partner could send the dog through the tunnel several times -- most dogs find the tunnel very exciting and are keen to repeat it, and if you use the "tunnel" command then eventually the dog will run through by himself. You could make a small jump course along a side passageway, just using 2 bricks and a plank and put your dog's food bowl on the other side of the jump and teach him to go over for his dinner, and eventually build this up to a run of several jumps and the dog going over just for a treat at the end. (The advantage of a side passageway is that you can leave it set up permanently so it's quick to use whenever you have a few minutes to spare, and depending on the layout it may not be possible for the dog to go around the jump, so he is learning to always go over, even when not on a lead or under much control). Buy a child's small hoop and lure your dog through the hoop with a treat, then when he will happily go through the hoop resting on the ground, you can jamb the hoop into a door frame eg at the entrance to the lounge room, and gradually raise it off the ground so he starts to jump through it to get into a part of the house he likes. Lay a metal ladder on the ground and lure him to walk through it -- this will teach him to watch where he places his back legs, and he may find this quite exciting too. Find or build a low large box and place his food bowl on the box, and teach him the command "table" when he jumps onto the box.

All these should be possible without a great deal of control and will make his garden exercise more interesting. I agree with other posts that to progress much further you will need on lead and off lead control, and trying more difficult equipment on lead can be dangerous to the dog. Go to an agility trial and see what other equipment you could make/modify for garden use with luring, and cut down your dog's food until he is very interested in working for his dinner after a few jumps etc.

hope this helps

Gspsplease

[beagie]

As I said earlier he has had one on one training for the walking many times. I am yet to find a technique that works, I have read through this forum for new techniques for ages no luck and everyone he has been to says they can fix it it only results in him not getting walked and to the point of explosion with energy.

dogs with high energy need calming, most people think by throwing a ball and waring the dog out is the way to go. Wrong. The dog needs to be calmed

lots of long sits and down stays. so you start by sitting or downing the dog on the mat while you are preparing the dinner, don't make it to long at the

start, gradualy increase the times as the dog calms down. Geared or hyper active dogs need a calm atmosphere. I have had two geared dogs they

ended up wonderful dogs, my GSP used to pace all the time, after a long run which they have every morning early, he would not be able to stop,

I would put my hands over his shoulder and take both legs and say legs stop now, and put him in a down until he calmed down. He is still highly geared

but much more manageable and was great in Agility. There is no reason at all why you cannot teach weaving in the back yard, figure eight jumping

(thinking space here) and make a tunnel. At a club your dog needs to be under control off lead. Good luck it can be done with time and patience

remember calm calm calm, voice low and quite, some peoples voices hype dogs, mine did until I learned not to use it and work on signals only

with one of my dogs. good luck it can be done Beagie