rustyredbc Posted August 22, 2009 Share Posted August 22, 2009 its seems to be more of a herding instinct but its getting really annoying my leg has got in the way twice now!! and this has to stop! i can put him into a drop but he then gets into his herding stance! he also chases birds and doesnt pay attention he also runs past my beagle and nips as he runs past i cant stop him! ive tried too please can anybody please help me thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tonymc Posted August 22, 2009 Share Posted August 22, 2009 For a start this is a working dog out of place. What outlet to express and release drive is there for this dog? Tony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cosmolo Posted August 22, 2009 Share Posted August 22, 2009 What have you tried so far? I think you need to look at getting some professional help- to assist you in providing the right outlet for your dogs drive and to implement proper strategies to stop this behaviour. In the meantime, do keep your dog on lead in the presence of strange dogs, in parks etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
persephone Posted August 22, 2009 Share Posted August 22, 2009 Assaid, he is a dog with a strong instinct to 'work' What things does he do in the way of exercise/training ? It can be frustrating when, because of the legs working , the ears stop! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
herding_guy Posted August 22, 2009 Share Posted August 22, 2009 its seems to be more of a herding instinct but its getting really annoying Yes it's part of the herding instinct ......prey drive. IMO an undesired trait. You need to nip this in the butt now (sorry for the pun) ;) because soon it will be the postman, car tyres, joggers and kids My tip dont fight it (herding instinct or prey drive) but work with it. Understand the herding instincts, work them & get them under your control. For me nipping / biting is an unwanted behaviour unless I ask for it. Most dogs give it a go at some stage in thier working career but it's up to the handler to stop it promptly. Go to a trainer that understands herding dogs if you can't find anyone PM me. Cheers, Dave. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nekhbet Posted August 22, 2009 Share Posted August 22, 2009 (edited) Yes it's part of the herding instinct ......prey drive. IMO an undesired trait. how is it an undesired trait in a herding breed?!?! If you dont want a herding dog dont get a herding breed! Christ. The dog simply needs to learn WHEN and WHERE to express the working tendencies. If it is a working line BC then it will need regular activities, but from the sounds of it the dog needs a job. Have you done obedience, agility, flyball or herding with the dog? It is not difficult to stop the behavior BUT you need to channel it. You cannot expect a dog hard wired to work to just sit and exist in the backyard and go for a walk a day. Edited August 22, 2009 by Nekhbet Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rustyredbc Posted August 22, 2009 Author Share Posted August 22, 2009 Yes it's part of the herding instinct ......prey drive. IMO an undesired trait. how is it an undesired trait in a herding breed?!?! If you dont want a herding dog dont get a herding breed! Christ. for starters i never said that i didnt want a herding breed! i love rusty with all my heart! i was just hoping somebody here could help me with this indesired herding instinct towards other dogs and birds! i would love to challenge his mind and go herding one day! it would be great! i did alot of research on this breed and i understand tehre demands! i attend weekly dog training since he was a pupppy. so please dont say that i shouldnt have got a border collie thank you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nekhbet Posted August 22, 2009 Share Posted August 22, 2009 sorry rusty I didnt mean you I meant it towards herding guys post that prey drive in a herding breed is an unwanted trait! That is what makes them so great at performing! If you go weekly then speak to your trainers about using your dogs prey drive in training to satisfy the urges. Does your dog like toys? If so then instead of food/praise you use a tug toy email me if you need instructions or a convo about it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelpie-i Posted August 22, 2009 Share Posted August 22, 2009 how is it an undesired trait in a herding breed?!?! If you dont want a herding dog dont get a herding breed! Christ. I think what Herding Guy is referring to is the the biting/nipping, not the herding instinct itself. Biting and nipping of stock, more so sheep, is undesirable in a herding dog. This sort of behaviour can cost a dog points in a herding trial and tends to stress the sheep. Dogs with a strong urge to bite/nip can be successfully used for cattle work but the are generally muzzled (if the behaviour is severe) when working sheep. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rustyredbc Posted August 22, 2009 Author Share Posted August 22, 2009 sorry rusty I didnt mean you I meant it towards herding guys post that prey drive in a herding breed is an unwanted trait! That is what makes them so great at performing!If you go weekly then speak to your trainers about using your dogs prey drive in training to satisfy the urges. Does your dog like toys? If so then instead of food/praise you use a tug toy email me if you need instructions or a convo about it he loves toys at home but when he cross threshold he wont listen, he wont pay attention, cometimes wont even take the food and definitely wont play tug! any help??? the training i go to is group and all trainers i have spoken to are just like. "oh well he is only a baby(2 years old nearly) he will grow out of it" it's fustrating you knoww Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cosmolo Posted August 22, 2009 Share Posted August 22, 2009 If thats what your trainers are saying, ask again explaining that it is a problem that you need to resolve asap and if they cannot offer solutions (to start working on) to you, find a new trainer/ training club. Whereabouts are you located? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelpie-i Posted August 22, 2009 Share Posted August 22, 2009 (edited) I would recommend changing training schools and go where the trainers understand herding dogs and/or predatory behaviour. Sounds like your dog may be overwhelmed by all the other sites and sounds. Can you explain, in more detail, what sort of behaviour he is exhibiting around the other dogs? ....and how exactly did your leg get in the way twice? Edited August 22, 2009 by Kelpie-i Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tonymc Posted August 22, 2009 Share Posted August 22, 2009 Loving a dog do's not automatically satisfy all a dogs needs. As Kelpie-i said change trainers real quick.No use wasting time with those that have no clue. In any situation involving Humans and Animals there is nearly always a lack of reflection on the Human side to see how they are contributing to the issue or problem. Rusty is a big negative that I see many times, that people buy Working bred dogs and yet never educate themselves or try to grasp what makes a working dog tick. Change or solution has to come from the top.Your supposed to be the top.To change this situation, firstly you will have to change. Get a good Trainer and educate yourself on matters such as prey drive,surpressed drive,redirected drive and so on. Tony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PAX Posted August 22, 2009 Share Posted August 22, 2009 rustredbc, do you have a herding school near you? You might get something out of it even if you don't plan on herding. You will get to see BC's doing what they are best at and the way they are handled and trained, you might even get hooked on herding. Herding dogs need to be well behaved, the most well behaved, so I'm sure it would be of help to you and your dog. I'm sure some of the Doler's could tell you where the nearest herding workshops are to your location. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nekhbet Posted August 22, 2009 Share Posted August 22, 2009 rustyred if you are close to kelpie-i's training school I suggest you pay them a visit they have experience and will find an outlet for your dog Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rustyredbc Posted August 22, 2009 Author Share Posted August 22, 2009 rustredbc, do you have a herding school near you?You might get something out of it even if you don't plan on herding. You will get to see BC's doing what they are best at and the way they are handled and trained, you might even get hooked on herding. Herding dogs need to be well behaved, the most well behaved, so I'm sure it would be of help to you and your dog. I'm sure some of the Doler's could tell you where the nearest herding workshops are to your location. i would love to try herding, that being said he doesnt have a reliable recall becuse he isn't focused. at the million paws walk in melbourne this year there was a herding expo and lets just say rusty was very reactive to the sheep. do these herding clinics know how to stop the dogs from hurting the sheep if tehy see a problem? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nekhbet Posted August 22, 2009 Share Posted August 22, 2009 yes they are run in a controlled environment with professionals so I would definately give it a go! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
herding_guy Posted August 22, 2009 Share Posted August 22, 2009 (edited) Nipping / biting is the undesired trait / behaviour of the herding instinct / prey drive. Herding is not biting stock. Bite is not bred for in sheepdogs. Bite is just one behaviour in the behaviour sequence of prey drive in herding dogs. The dogs that bite nip are ussually softer dogs that lack confidence & presence. Using tug toys may increase the bite if incorrectly done. Edited August 22, 2009 by herding_guy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
herding_guy Posted August 22, 2009 Share Posted August 22, 2009 i would love to try herding, that being said he doesnt have a reliable recall becuse he isn't focused. at the million paws walk in melbourne this year there was a herding expo and lets just say rusty was very reactive to the sheep. do these herding clinics know how to stop the dogs from hurting the sheep if they see a problem? I run herding clinics and you don't need a reliable recall. Focus will be there once he has sheep in front of him. Never had a dog that hurt one of my sheep at a herding clinic yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vickie Posted August 22, 2009 Share Posted August 22, 2009 (edited) I would forget his breed for a minute & concentrate on the actual issues you are having (which are common to many breeds). I agree, going to see a good trainer will help. He sounds like he needs some firm boundaries & some tricks/sports to stimulate his mind & tire him out. When is he nipping at other dogs? I would stop him doing this immediately. Take away the opportunites he has to do this...No more running loose at training or in the park. He needs to earn this right. Same with the bird chasing...until you have him under control & with a good recall, don't put him in situations where he can run off, chase birds & ignore you. If you watch a dog who chases birds, there are 3 stages: first they haven't see the bird & are responsive to you, second they see the bird & their body stiffens a little, their ears flick, they lower their body a bit, during this 1-2 second stage it is usually possible to get their attention & reward for it, third stage is after they have taken off after teh birds. Calling most dogs at this stage is useless, many of them don't even hear you. Lots of people actually teach their dogs a bad/lack of recall in this situation. If you have ever called him when he is intently chasing birds or other dogs, you have actually taught him that "come" means nothing. The only way to associate a command with a behaviour is to pair it with that behaviour. From now on, I would only call him (and maybe pick another word if come means nothing) when you know he will come or when you are in a position to go & get him. Using a long line will help too. That way he has no choice but to come when you call him. Will he fetch a ball? does he bring it back? teach him that you will only throw it if he puts it in your hand. Lots of tricks...teach him to spin, touch a target, walk backwards, hi five, jump into a box etc ect. There are lots of tricks on the internet. This will tire him out a lot more than running wild. Once you have him to the point where he is focussed on you & trying to work out what you are teaching by offering behaviours, maybe try some agility with him. This will exercise him mind & body. Stop feeding him from a bowl for free. Start feeding him by hand & make him earn his food by doing tricks. If you go for a walk & he is offleash (with no other dogs or birds around), does he stay close? Does he watch for you? If you hid or turned & walked the other way, how long would it take for him to notice? Edited August 22, 2009 by Vickie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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