Border Collie Pup With Biting Issues!

[Snout Girl]

Hello everyone

I am new to this site and have a lovely time browsing the forum looking at everyone's beautiful dogs. i would appreciate some advice if anyone can give any.

my partner and I have a 6 month old border collie and a 13 week old pug. we love them both dearly and they are both attending obedience class weekly.

when our border collie was younger she would jump up and bite my clothes regularly. she appeared to grow out of this at about 4 months and we believed the behaviour had disappeared.

the last week, however, has been a bit of a nightmare. she has reverted to her old ways. the play fighting with her 'brother' pug can get a bit out of hand. we had a dog trainer come to our house and she advised us that when it gets out of control, to grab the border collie by the collar whilst firmly saying 'no' and hold on until she calms down. we have been trying this but it seems to be making the problem worse. she then starts attacking us, biting and tearing at our clothes. we have tried spraying her with water.

is this just over excitement and will the methods work with time? is there anything else we should be doing?

other than this she is a very lovely dog. we make sure she gets a good walk and ball time everyday and she gets lots of love from her owners.

any advice?

[persephone]

Hi.she's a merle!! Merles can do no wrong!!

Ok- you have a teenaged dog, bred to WORK... she has a brain and body in need of everyday action/stimulation.

She also needs firm leadership. NOT bossing... leadership.

When you walk her, what does this entail?

How far

How long

What is her walking position..

When she is biting you/your clothes... what noise , if any does she make?

what is her body language? Ears/tail/eyes/ hackles....

and

What do you say/do when this happens?..You said you use the water bottle.. but how> Do you not speak, do you growl, do you raise your voice?

?

[Nekhbet]

I think you have a now temper tantrum dog who has never been told off properly hence her reaction to you. She is not a baby anymore and hence will behave more like a spoiled 6 year old.

Mouthing, nipping, destruction, barking etc are not things puppies simply grow out of. She may have stopped as her excitement levels diminished at the behavior but now the pug is here she's hyper and back into it.

I say call a different trainer to give you better advice. She not only needs to be shown what is right/wrong but what the alternative to the behavior is.

[Dogsfevr]

yep find a different trainer.

Also how much does the pug stir things up & does the border collie get the discipline simply because its bigger??

Pugs can dish it out well & can stir havoc so is this equal play but you panic thinking it will hurt the little one??

[Snout Girl]

Hi.she's a merle!! Merles can do no wrong!! :p

Ok- you have a teenaged dog, bred to WORK... she has a brain and body in need of everyday action/stimulation.

She also needs firm leadership. NOT bossing... leadership.

When you walk her, what does this entail?

How far

How long

What is her walking position..

When she is biting you/your clothes... what noise , if any does she make?

what is her body language? Ears/tail/eyes/ hackles....

and

What do you say/do when this happens?..You said you use the water bottle.. but how> Do you not speak, do you growl, do you raise your voice?

?

Thanks for everyone's replies

In answer to the questions posed, we walk her for 45mins-1hr a day. the breeder advised at such a young age 2 walks a day could damage her bone and muscle development so we are waiting until she is a bit older before we start her on 2 walks a day. she also gets 45min-1hour of ball time.

we are teaching her loose lead walking but it is coming along slowly. she still tends to pull a lot but it is slowly getting better with practise.

when she is attacking us/our clothes she typically growls what we know as the 'play growl' and her front is low to the ground whilst her hind is in the air. when we squirt her with the bottle we make a very loud 'arh' noise or say 'no'.

the water bottle works quite well when we need to break the two up.

we are well aware that half or more of the time the pug is the antagoniser so all reprimands are dished out equally. he cops a spray fairly regurlarly as well. the difference is when we grab him by the collar and tell him no he tends to calm down whilst she starts the biting and attacking of our clothes.

we believe we are consistent and have made a concerted effort to focus on leadership since the trainer visited. she gave us lots of tips which we are using every day.

i hope this information helps any advice people can give

[persephone]

With the walk- that can easily be done twice a day 3O MINUTES EACH ONE :p two walks.. but shorter.

That way she is getting out&about twice... but still not overdoing it.

I don't play ball with my dogs, .. but is this one session? around an hour seems a lot ??

remember to keep things c a l m around her... and have set commands for playtime/walktime, so she knows...

this is good advice ,from nekhbet..

Mouthing, nipping, destruction, barking etc are not things puppies simply grow out of. She may have stopped as her excitement levels diminished at the behavior but now the pug is here she's hyper and back into it.

I say call a different trainer to give you better advice. She not only needs to be shown what is right/wrong but what the alternative to the behavior is.

Edited August 14, 2009 by persephone

[Rusky]

something for you to read while you take on Nekhbets advice. Good luck with finding someone to show you what to do, you need to do it soon.

http://www.crickethollowfarm.com/biteinhib.htm

[megan_]

With the walk- that can easily be done twice a day 3O MINUTES EACH ONE :D two walks.. but shorter.

That way she is getting out&about twice... but still not overdoing it.

yip - everything I have read says that two (three, four...) small walks are much better on the joints than one big one.

also, if you mix in some activities and training into your walks she will be mentally stimulated too.

Wrt the trainer, you could create a post with details of where you live (suburb) and I'm sure you'll get some good recommendations. Given that it isn't a regulated industry, anyone can call themselves a dog trainer.

[Tassie]

something for you to read while you take on Nekhbets advice. Good luck with finding someone to show you what to do, you need to do it soon.

http://www.crickethollowfarm.com/biteinhib.htm

Nice reference Rusky. ;)

Yes, I was thinking along the lines of simply giving an Uh-uh and then a time out - no more interaction than that at a time when the BC is hyper-excited. IMHO, all the action from you that you describe is simply upping the ante. The pup needs to get the message that you just don't want to know her when she's behaving like that.

I would also have plenty of legitimate chew toys around so that as soon as any biting starts, you can quickly interrupt with a verbal uh-uh and re-direct to an appropriate toy - which isn't always the pug.

I agree with the breeder about limiting the amount of exercise in a growing pup - but having said that - 45 min to 1 hour of walking in one go is too much IMO. And that much ball play is waaaay too much. I think you'd get much better results with maybe 5 minutes of relatively gentle ball play, and much more mental type interaction with your girl - teaching - tricks, obedience skills, foundation agility skills etc. etc. Wears the pup out much faster than just physical exercise, and enhances the relationship between pup and owner.

Oh, and I'd be doing plenty of practice with 'swap/trade', where the pup learns to give you something she has, and either gets something more valuable (toy or treat) in return, or gets the original back. When you're doing that, just make sure you're not trying to pull whatever it is out of the pup's mouth. the idea is that the pup lets go of it.

[Aidan]

the last week, however, has been a bit of a nightmare. she has reverted to her old ways. the play fighting with her 'brother' pug can get a bit out of hand. we had a dog trainer come to our house and she advised us that when it gets out of control, to grab the border collie by the collar whilst firmly saying 'no' and hold on until she calms down. we have been trying this but it seems to be making the problem worse. she then starts attacking us, biting and tearing at our clothes. we have tried spraying her with water.

is this just over excitement and will the methods work with time?

No they won't work over time, it was terrible advice in the first place and I don't often say that.

When you say "out of control", what specifically would you call out of control? Is one dog trying to escape? Has there ever been blood? Does the collie not stop if the pug squeals?