Does Your Dog Really Need To Go Under The Knife?

[Esty79]

Hi All,

I would like to say that Surgery for torn Cruciate Ligaments isn’t always the only option for your Dog. Your vet probably won’t tell you anything about alternative options because they are only just being explored.

I have a Shar-pei cross Ridgeback called Bettee she has a fully torn cruciate ligament on her left side and a partial on her right. When this first happened I was faced with Surgery on both of them. At $2500.00 a pop, I was going to have to look at borrowing the money from somewhere so I wanted to explore all options before I committed. They also couldn’t do both at the same time so it was looking like Bettee was going to be confined for over a year.

I’m lucky because my sister is a ‘Human’ Physiotherapist (currently studying her PHD) and one of her friends has just finished studying animal Physiotherapy after being a human Physio for many years. I took both of them to the consultation with Neil at Rivergum (who by the way really knows his stuff, he had two very experienced physio’s interrogating him) and with looking at the x-rays and talking with Neil both my sister and her friend decided that we would try Neuromuscular stimulation and hind-quarter loading exercises to build the muscles up in the knee area to act like/replace the ligament. This method is used in elite sports persons and it has worked for them so why not give it a try on my very special girl. It uses electrical current that is run through the muscle to make it contract.

With six months of confining her in a doggie cage and only being let out for wees etc. and attaching the elector pads to either end of her muscles every night for 15 minutes for that six months. Bettee’s muscle tone in her legs is now equivalent on both sides and way stronger than she was before. Bettee is back to jumping fences higher than two meters and running as fast as ever. Arthritis is a concern but with fish oil and glucosamine in her food every day we hope to combat that as well.

I know there is only two animal physio’s in WA so finding someone to help may be difficult but the way I see it is that anything is better than being cut open. You could possibly contact the Australian Physiotherapy Association for assistance?

I hope this opens your eyes to other options for your best friends.

Kind Regards,

Esty

[poodlefan]

With six months of confining her in a doggie cage and only being let out for wees etc. and attaching the elector pads to either end of her muscles every night for 15 minutes for that six months.

I would pay $$$$ to avoid 6 months of crate rest. Not much of a life for a dog and not something I could accomplish with a full time job.

But to each their own. I'd also be questioning what will happen as the dog ages and loses muscle condition.

Edited August 14, 2009 by poodlefan

[Kelly_Louise]

Exactly, and chances are if the dog is jumping 2 metre fences - the injury will most likely flair up again at some point. It might also damage the meniscus, and once that is damaged to a certain extent can be EXTREMELY painful for a dog (even more painful the the torn ligament) and requires surgery to be removed.

Personally, I'd rather pay the money and have the surgeries done (and I did and she was out of action for 9 months) and have a more permanent, more stable solution. But that is just my preference.

I hope your girl continues to improve and stay so mobile.

[Clyde]

OMG six months Poor dog... I agree with PF, I would rather get it over and done with, for the sake of the dog.

It would also pay for you to get second opinions on costs.

I don't know where you got one year recovery for two cruciate repairs from. My little girl has had both cruciates done and is running around like a mad chook 5 weeks later. Perhaps you need a new vet :D

[Esty79]

With six months of confining her in a doggie cage and only being let out for wees etc. and attaching the elector pads to either end of her muscles every night for 15 minutes for that six months.

I would pay $$$$ to avoid 6 months of crate rest. Not much of a life for a dog and not something I could accomplish with a full time job.

But to each their own. I'd also be questioning what will happen as the dog ages and loses muscle condition.

They still need six months creat rest after the surgery so the only difference is not having to go under the knife. Othwise money would be not object for my baby!!

Bettee had her injuries over two years ago and she’s still going strong, Thank you for your wishes.

[Esty79]

Exactly, and chances are if the dog is jumping 2 metre fences - the injury will most likely flair up again at some point. It might also damage the meniscus, and once that is damaged to a certain extent can be EXTREMELY painful for a dog (even more painful the the torn ligament) and requires surgery to be removed.

Personally, I'd rather pay the money and have the surgeries done (and I did and she was out of action for 9 months) and have a more permanent, more stable solution. But that is just my preference.

I hope your girl continues to improve and stay so mobile.

Thank you very much for your wishes for Bettee and I'm sure she will continue to live a very fulfulling life with our having the scares to prove it.

[Esty79]

OMG six months Poor dog... I agree with PF, I would rather get it over and done with, for the sake of the dog.

It would also pay for you to get second opinions on costs.

I don't know where you got one year recovery for two cruciate repairs from. My little girl has had both cruciates done and is running around like a mad chook 5 weeks later. Perhaps you need a new vet :D

My girl isn't that small so she would need six months to recover fully from having one leg done.

[Staffyluv]

We opted to not have surgery too. Ollie has had partial tears (now they are minor) in both left and right. We rested him and did not allow him any jumping or big walks. His movement was limited but not to a crate, we just encouraged him to take it easy (not too hard with a lazy old staffy, he sleeps most of the day away anyway). After about 4 weeks, we started taking short walks and have built it back to up half an hour a day. We take little hills to work them more and I discourage running (even now) because he is 12 years old and as his legs are OK now, I don't want to have him end up in surgery again.

He has had more than his fair share of surgery - two big ops for MCT removals, one op for lipoma removal due to how big it was and it was interfering with the way he walked, another big op to remove bladder stones that could not be passed, a recent surgery to remove a toe due to another type of cancer (not MCT), and a couple of other minor ones (remove a cracked tooth and one to remove a small tumour from his eye)...

Good lord when I type it all out, it is horrible - all that and chemo to boot...

No, definitely no more surgery for my boy if I can get away with it...

We also use ester C for tissue repair...

[Esty79]

With six months of confining her in a doggie cage and only being let out for wees etc. and attaching the elector pads to either end of her muscles every night for 15 minutes for that six months.

I would pay $$$$ to avoid 6 months of crate rest. Not much of a life for a dog and not something I could accomplish with a full time job.

But to each their own. I'd also be questioning what will happen as the dog ages and loses muscle condition.

Oh and I was working 12 hour shift work at the time with a roster of 4 day 4 night and 4 off and I had an hour travel time each way but I still managed to get the time for my girl. I admit I didn't have much of a life but it was for my baby so I didn't even think twice!

[Esty79]

We opted to not have surgery too. Ollie has had partial tears (now they are minor) in both left and right. We rested him and did not allow him any jumping or big walks. His movement was limited but not to a crate, we just encouraged him to take it easy (not too hard with a lazy old staffy, he sleeps most of the day away anyway). After about 4 weeks, we started taking short walks and have built it back to up half an hour a day. We take little hills to work them more and I discourage running (even now) because he is 12 years old and as his legs are OK now, I don't want to have him end up in surgery again.

He has had more than his fair share of surgery - two big ops for MCT removals, one op for lipoma removal due to how big it was and it was interfering with the way he walked, another big op to remove bladder stones that could not be passed, a recent surgery to remove a toe due to another type of cancer (not MCT), and a couple of other minor ones (remove a cracked tooth and one to remove a small tumour from his eye)...

Good lord when I type it all out, it is horrible - all that and chemo to boot...

No, definitely no more surgery for my boy if I can get away with it...

We also use ester C for tissue repair...

Your poor baby!! Mine has also seen her fare share so that is another reason I chose not to go with the surgery. To much anastetic isn't good for humans so I can just emagian what it can you to our little loved ones.

I really hope your little man Starts having a better run of it.

[Kelly_Louise]

OMG six months Poor dog... I agree with PF, I would rather get it over and done with, for the sake of the dog.

It would also pay for you to get second opinions on costs.

I don't know where you got one year recovery for two cruciate repairs from. My little girl has had both cruciates done and is running around like a mad chook 5 weeks later. Perhaps you need a new vet :D

My girl isn't that small so she would need six months to recover fully from having one leg done.

Six months is not generally needed for one leg - both legs maybe, but not one. Chloe had hers done, she was older so her bones healed slower - and she did not need 6 months per leg. I've not personally known a dog that needed to be in recovery for 6 months for one surgery, more like 3 months per leg.

I would seek another vets opinion should your girl ever become lame again. Please don't discount surgery as an option should it ever come to that - the results can be amazing.

But I'm glad it's worked out for you guys and you have been able to avoid surgery. No one wants to put their babies under the knife, but I guess it's the results afterwards that sways people. It may not be for everyone, but I felt surgery was the best option for us and would recommend it with the fabulous results we've had.

Thank you for introducing a new alternative for people to investigate Many may benefit.

Edited August 14, 2009 by Kelly_Louise

[Nekhbet]

I have a damaged cruciate ligament in my knee

can I tell you how damn painfull it is. Especially the more you sit down and do nothing. It's like someone took a sledgehammer to your knee and THEN my foot rotates inwards.

6 months rest is not required for cruciate repairs. That is excessive. And I have helped veterinarians in cruciate repairs. Arthritis also has nothing to do with the ligaments it is a cartilage/bone shape problem.

elec stim therapy is one way to build muscle but your dog should not be jumping 2m fences at all. Wait until one day it falls on its hinds and the tear reopens. Scar tissue will not regrow the same as a repaired cruciate I hope your sister told you that as well. Worst still the damage could have caused some nerve damage hence the jumping.

ETA can I just say I'm not one to jump into surgery and I have a dog that was quoted over $20,000 worth for his legs and alternative therapies worked. Bodgy breeding and bone structure is one thing, ligaments are another.

Edited August 14, 2009 by Nekhbet

[Staranais]

Arthritis also has nothing to do with the ligaments it is a cartilage/bone shape problem.

Arthritis (DJD) often develops secondary to unstable joints caused by loose ligaments and cruciate tears.

I would also worry about the dog jumping 2m fences, though, even after the therapy.

[Clyde]

OMG six months Poor dog... I agree with PF, I would rather get it over and done with, for the sake of the dog.

It would also pay for you to get second opinions on costs.

I don't know where you got one year recovery for two cruciate repairs from. My little girl has had both cruciates done and is running around like a mad chook 5 weeks later. Perhaps you need a new vet :D

My girl isn't that small so she would need six months to recover fully from having one leg done.

No, she wouldn't. I don't know where you are getting this from. I have previously nursed for a veterinary orthopedic surgeon, six months crating is unheard of. It's fine that you have found something that has worked for you, however a lot of people come to these boards to research options for their own dogs so it's best not to exaggerate the facts.

[poodlefan]

OMG six months :D Poor dog... I agree with PF, I would rather get it over and done with, for the sake of the dog.

It would also pay for you to get second opinions on costs.

I don't know where you got one year recovery for two cruciate repairs from. My little girl has had both cruciates done and is running around like a mad chook 5 weeks later. Perhaps you need a new vet

My girl isn't that small so she would need six months to recover fully from having one leg done.

No, she wouldn't. I don't know where you are getting this from. I have previously nursed for a veterinary orthopedic surgeon, six months crating is unheard of. It's fine that you have found something that has worked for you, however a lot of people come to these boards to research options for their own dogs so it's best not to exaggerate the facts.

My friends dog had two weeks crate rest and 6 weeks on lead walking.

[Clyde]

Yup, rule of thumb.

[Dogsfevr]

we board alot of dogs who have had it done.often 4 weeks after & certainly no crating at all just common sense,easy/gentle exercise ,swimming & light lead walking.

Infact constant crating will cause a massive amount of muscle loss which is not easy to restore.I dont now of any vet that gives that advice because its all about getting them going again with a gentle programme to retain condition & replace condition.

I cant fathom why anyone would let there dog jump those heights when it is carrying such issues,that is total madness

[Nekhbet]

hence the need for the stim therapy. The muscles would be so atrophied the dog would not be able to walk.

all this has achieved is growing a nice thick scar tissue layer. Like I said I dread the day that scar tissue snaps with the dog jumping those heights. Its OK since a dog LANDS on its front legs but if it has to place all pressure on the hinds wait for the scream. Seen it. Not pretty.

[Erny]

... if it has to place all pressure on the hinds wait for the scream. Seen it. Not pretty.

And I've felt it (although in my instance I was the one jumping - over my dog, in fact, in a drop/stay proofing exercise). Sooo much pain that everything went black although I did not lose consciousness. Heaps of swelling for a good week or so after. After that I felt ok on it .... except that I could feel my joint slide if I was walking down-hill. And sometimes, as I was walking, my leg would swing forward seemingly of its own accord - ie I'd lose control of it.

Not pleasant and life-activity restricting. And being an active person I hated that I couldn't trust it to not give out on me unexpectedly.

The other thing that remained a concern was that whilst my cruciate was snapped, I was placing pressure on the other of the remaining ligaments. Over time this ran the very real and big potential that I could easily cause damage to them as well .... and be left with even less or no ligaments protecting the joint. That could lead to a complete break-down of the joint itself.

I had knee reconstruction and have not looked back. Within 24 hours I was on the machine to get the joint moving. Within another 24 hours I was off crutches. The 'fixed' knee is now stronger than the undamaged knee.

I know it is vastly different with dogs - both in relation to the surgery itself (I wish they could do dogs the same as my surgeon - who was ahead of his time - did mine) as well as in the fact that us humans can simply be told how to take care of the recovering joint/ligaments. I don't believe it is a case of 6 months crate rest after surgery though and I doubt very much that I would wish that upon my dog if there was another way. I would also be very concerned for the additional stress the dog's joint and remaining supporting ligaments would be carrying in the absence of its cruciate. After all you can't tell your dog to be careful - unless they are uncomfortable they don't know the reality until it happens.

Appreciate the information put up in the OP though. Handy to know.

[Sky_Mel]

My last girl had surgery to repair her Cruciate Ligament , she was a 9 year old German Shepherd, We definitely didn't crate her nor were we told to, just to take it easy and as it was she made a full recovery which even surprised the vet being how old she was, never had any more problems after this :p

Edited August 14, 2009 by Sky_Mel