Partipaws Posted August 14, 2009 Share Posted August 14, 2009 Hi All, I have not been showing for long - just started this year. I currently show three pomeranians all of which are different colours - one is black and white parti, the other is a orange and white parti and lastley my little puppy girl is black and tan. Firstly my boy who is black and white as seen in my avatar, I have been naughty and left him outside during the day when I am not home and he has bronzed up in the sun, so he looks like a dark chocolate and white - which is nice but I suppose I was looking into trying a black rinse on him to tone down the browning. I have shown horses when I was young and often I would use a rinse on the manes and tails as the same would happen for black coloured manes and tails - not sure whether to try horsey products though??? And for my other two I was looking for some tan coloured dyes so that I could apply to the ear and feet where they are trimmed back short which ends up being a very light colour and quite noticeable in comparison to the rest of the body- Most breeders use condy's crystals (not sure how it is spelt) or tea bags, but my experience is it does not last long especially if the grounds are damp or their is a lot of humidity in the air. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated regarding rinses, dyes or your own "secret ingredients" Thank you in advance jess Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poodlefan Posted August 14, 2009 Share Posted August 14, 2009 (edited) Hi All,I have not been showing for long - just started this year. I currently show three pomeranians all of which are different colours - one is black and white parti, the other is a orange and white parti and lastley my little puppy girl is black and tan. Firstly my boy who is black and white as seen in my avatar, I have been naughty and left him outside during the day when I am not home and he has bronzed up in the sun, so he looks like a dark chocolate and white - which is nice but I suppose I was looking into trying a black rinse on him to tone down the browning. I have shown horses when I was young and often I would use a rinse on the manes and tails as the same would happen for black coloured manes and tails - not sure whether to try horsey products though??? And for my other two I was looking for some tan coloured dyes so that I could apply to the ear and feet where they are trimmed back short which ends up being a very light colour and quite noticeable in comparison to the rest of the body- Most breeders use condy's crystals (not sure how it is spelt) or tea bags, but my experience is it does not last long especially if the grounds are damp or their is a lot of humidity in the air. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated regarding rinses, dyes or your own "secret ingredients" Thank you in advance jess Not sure about NZ but the application of any sort of dye to a dog is a breach of CC rules here. It is a breach of rules if: The natural colour or shade of natural colour or the natural markings of the dog have been altered or changed by the use of any substance whatsoever; I'm not saying it doesn't happen but I'd be surprised if anyone wanted to advertise the fact. :D Edited August 14, 2009 by poodlefan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ellz Posted August 14, 2009 Share Posted August 14, 2009 You can certainly buy dog shampoos that are designed to remove or reduce red highlights in the coat. They are openly sold and marketed. BUT, your problem is that being a black/white, whatever you use on the black hair, you must NOT get on the white hair or it will most certainly discolour it (although you can use the shampoos designed for white hair on black with no ill effect). I'd probably just go back to basics with the burnt black hair and condition, condition, condition and possibly treat with Plush Puppy Coat Reviver and Seabreeze Oil between shows to get the moisture back into it. As for the tans, there are shampoos available that are designed to highlight and accentuate various shades of tan, red and and brown. Plush Puppy do one, as do Laser Lites, Chris Christensen and a few other shampoo manufacturers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Partipaws Posted August 14, 2009 Author Share Posted August 14, 2009 no I realise it is a breech, I am not out for dying a white dog black so that I can show it...lol....but pretty much all pom breeder use tea bags or condy's crystals to touch up the under coat colour on the ears and feet as it is lighter then the dogs outer coat and it really takes away from the look - I was just inquiring into other forms of touching up colour or ridding coats of sun bleeching as I am not "changing the dogs natural colour" I simply have allowed the sun to bronze it up, so was wondering what method I would go about darkening or bringing back the natural colour. And for tan coloured areas to apply to blend it with the natural colour. I have heard many people wash dogs with a rinse in it to strengthen or tone down colour ?? Thank you anyways. Jess Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Partipaws Posted August 14, 2009 Author Share Posted August 14, 2009 Yes yes - that sounds great!!! thank you ellz - I know border collie breeders/exhibitors have the same problem so I was worried with what I use on his coat - he has very similar markings as a border collie and almost looks like a miniature one - lol I will go check it out - worth a try - if not I suppose I just have to make sure my little man stays out of the sun jess Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miranda Posted August 14, 2009 Share Posted August 14, 2009 (edited) Wouldn't it be better to do your trimming well in advance of the show so that it has a chance to blend in? As for the red tint the colour enhancing shampoos will help a bit, but you'll still be able to see it especially in the sun. It sounds as if you need to put a lot more work into your coats between shows. Unfortunately with long coated dogs you have to look after their coats all the time, leaving the dogs in the yard and then giving them a bath and a trim the day before a show just isn't enough. Edited August 14, 2009 by Miranda Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ellz Posted August 14, 2009 Share Posted August 14, 2009 Oh and meant to add as well, in the past, if I've had a buff American Cocker which has had patchy areas due to my stupidity with scissoring or clipping or for whatever other reason, a strong tea "soak" has been helpful. This is also good for dying white leads! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miranda Posted August 14, 2009 Share Posted August 14, 2009 And talking of maintaining coats between shows has just reminded me that I need to get off DOL and go and wash some pee feathers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ellz Posted August 14, 2009 Share Posted August 14, 2009 I hear you Miranda, I'm about to do pee and fanny feathers! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miranda Posted August 14, 2009 Share Posted August 14, 2009 I hear you Miranda, I'm about to do pee and fanny feathers! Isn't it a great job :D I find that PP Seabreeze Oil is excellent for pee and fanny feathers although a lot of people prefer Reviva Coat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dancinbcs Posted August 14, 2009 Share Posted August 14, 2009 I have never heard of anyone contemplating dying a dog a different colour. It is always about touching up the existing colour and it it still against the regulations for a good reason. Fading coat colour is a genetic problem just like anything else. My BCs have always drawn comments from people about their intense black coats and I am forever being asked how I get them that black. The answer is that they are born that way and if they have really intensely coloured coats they do not fade or redden. The white markings are also a whiter on dogs with deeper coloured coats than on those with reddish/black coats. From discussions with another long term BC breeder who breeds colours I am definitely of the opinion that coat colour intensity is inherited separately to the actual colour. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Partipaws Posted August 14, 2009 Author Share Posted August 14, 2009 Wouldn't it be better to do your trimming well in advance of the show so that it has a chance to blend in? As for the red tint the colour enhancing shampoos will help a bit, but you'll still be able to see it especially in the sun. It sounds as if you need to put a lot more work into your coats between shows. Unfortunately with long coated dogs you have to look after their coats all the time, leaving the dogs in the yard and then giving them a bath and a trim the day before a show just isn't enough. I am sorry but I am out every weekend trimming and maintaining my doggies coats - I have had a breeder help and mentor me for 3 years now so I know that leaving things last minute is no good especially with poms and their huge coats. I showed my boy 3 weeks back and managed to trim some of it out but I just thought I would ask to see if there were other options available for me from some people who have experience the same problem. It doesn't bother me in the slightest as I am always going to be let down because of his colour - parti colours are less desirable then solids, so I am just enjoying showing him thats all. I put a huge amount of effort into the upkeep of my dogs - I keep them clean (but not over wash them) I brush them very regularly to keep dirt and grime out of coat to stop damage to coat hairs and every weekend I am out there trimming etc - my partner really thinks I over do it. I understand what you mean, but unfortunately with poms coats is you are really limited to the amount you trim off as obviously their coats are a major characteristic of the breed and you really want to display the lovely coat, as bigger is better, but to give a 'round ball-like appearance. My boy is not so much brown/bronze on his body it is more around his face and tail which you hardly can trim as the face hair is short and is left as is and the tail is left fairly natural as well. The problem is down to him being exposed to sun, and I am not that keen on keeping him locked away inside as I think that is a little unfair! All my dogs are inside outside dogs they have free access to everywhere as they please - My boy is generally inside with me while I am working at home, but he has access outdoors and indoors at all times, even when I go out, as is with the other two girls - I feel a little sad if I were to keep him locked up all day as I want him to enjoy himself and he does enjoy being outside. "Unfortunately with long coated dogs you have to look after their coats all the time, leaving the dogs in the yard and then giving them a bath and a trim the day before a show just isn't enough" sorry I am not being nasty or anything - but I assure you this is not the case, I know I mentioned I am new to showing and I am not saying I know everything which is not the case either, but I have taken many years before this year to learn from my mentors and to attend shows with them and to learn the proper way of trimming and preparing for a show, I was taught to trim every week if I could to keep on top of things and this is what I have done - I simply do not leave my dogs in a yard and then the night before a show wash them and trim them! What I meant by this was that they have access inside and out - I can't police them if they want to go outside, and I would not want them being locked away either - it seems a little harsh and over the top!!! Please again I am not being nasty just wanted to clear up anything that you may have misinterpreted from me and what I had previously written. I really agree with what you say and have taken your advise, but I simply want to make clear that I understand the effort involved in showing, and I truly do work hard at all times to keep my dogs in top condition for a show!!!! I don't agree that keeping a dog locked up all day is a nice way to go about showing! I hope you have not taken this the wrong way Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Partipaws Posted August 14, 2009 Author Share Posted August 14, 2009 I have never heard of anyone contemplating dying a dog a different colour. It is always about touching up the existing colour and it it still against the regulations for a good reason. Fading coat colour is a genetic problem just like anything else.My BCs have always drawn comments from people about their intense black coats and I am forever being asked how I get them that black. The answer is that they are born that way and if they have really intensely coloured coats they do not fade or redden. The white markings are also a whiter on dogs with deeper coloured coats than on those with reddish/black coats. From discussions with another long term BC breeder who breeds colours I am definitely of the opinion that coat colour intensity is inherited separately to the actual colour. huh?!?! I never mentioned I was dying a dog a different colour??? whats going on here...lol. :D Yes I was asking about touching up colour if possible....but then the other problem could be that he carries the chocolate gene, thus may display the brown - or maybe he is actually brown and white??? who knows! lol. His sisters were chocolate and chocolate and white - but he was registered as black and white parti! hmm??? Not too clear on colour genetics but with border collies because you are constantly doubling up on black and whites (I know you have your choc/whites and honey/white) would that not strengthen the intensity of the black?? Poms are a little different so maybe his colour is not as intense - his mum was black, his father cream and white and prior to that a whole lot of creams, orange and whites etc are in his pedigree!!! what do you think? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ellz Posted August 14, 2009 Share Posted August 14, 2009 I think you'll find that Miranda was more talking "you" generally, rather than "you" specifically. It is a fact though that many people who are new to showing are in awe of the coats and conditioning of some dogs but either aren't aware, or are unwilling to put in the behind the scenes hard yakka to accomplish it. And it is work to maintain a show coat. dancinbc, the OP isn't talking about dying a coat to "create" something that isn't there. Unless I'm mistaken, they want to assist something that has occurred already. It doesn't matter whether you have dogs, cats, horses or even in the case of people hair, if it is in the sun and the elements it WILL become damaged. If the OP's dog is in and out of the sun, then it will sustain some amount of sunburn. The best way to ensure that this doesn't happen, is to keep it out of the sun. My dogs are in and out all day, but when they are out, they only have access to parts of the yard that can be shaded by a good-quality shadecloth to filter out at least the worst of the sun's rays. I'm going through a reddish coat tinge with one of my youngsters at the moment, but he isn't yet 12 months old so I believe a lot of it is puppy coat. He is also from lines which have heaps of buff behind, so I also think that this plays a part as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miranda Posted August 14, 2009 Share Posted August 14, 2009 I hope you have not taken this the wrong way Don't be silly, I'm a dog showing person remember, I don't do sensitive I think I misunderstood your post, when you said that the dog had bronzed in the sun and now looks chocolate instead of black I assumed that he had a reddish tint all over his body. Now you say that he is bronze only on his face and tail which is a huge difference to what you implied in your first post. I have black and tan dogs and I'm afraid that if one of my dogs looked chocolate instead of black he'd be pulled from the ring so when I read that I thought :D My dogs do sometimes have a few reddish hairs even though I take a great deal of care of their coats, the red hair is usually dead so I pull it out, it's usually on the elbows and the top of the head. Have you tried pulling it out with your fingers against the lay of the hair? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Partipaws Posted August 14, 2009 Author Share Posted August 14, 2009 sorry did I misinterpret - sorry again... I understand, I love to hear everyones opinion but sorry wanted to make clear that I do care for my dogs. I really can't understand why he is bronzing up - our yard is very shady - we are down in a valley and have a huge fig tree (sort of thing? lol) in the yard, he is outside inside but it still is affecting his coat a little, its not really all over, its mainly these two spots on his head near his cheeks - so maybe a shade cloth is the way to go! thanks ellz I realise from previously being in horses and showing that coats, manes and tail get affected by the sun, environmental or even dietary, so usually you put a rug on the horse to stop the sun affecting them - but at times you would also put a rinse through the tail if it was still sun bleached. I realise I have neglected that one aspect to coat maintenance, but I admit I was being slack as he has been out of showing for a near 10 months due to an accident with his tail and due to him not having any tail hair because a certain puppy (who is now grown up) decided to chew it off, he was not being shown until it had grown back so had left him to do as he pleased - but now I am trying to figure ways to see off the bronzing and get him back in action!!! hmmm? one disaster after another isn't it :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Partipaws Posted August 14, 2009 Author Share Posted August 14, 2009 I hope you have not taken this the wrong way Don't be silly, I'm a dog showing person remember, I don't do sensitive I think I misunderstood your post, when you said that the dog had bronzed in the sun and now looks chocolate instead of black I assumed that he had a reddish tint all over his body. Now you say that he is bronze only on his face and tail which is a huge difference to what you implied in your first post. I have black and tan dogs and I'm afraid that if one of my dogs looked chocolate instead of black he'd be pulled from the ring so when I read that I thought :D My dogs do sometimes have a few reddish hairs even though I take a great deal of care of their coats, the red hair is usually dead so I pull it out, it's usually on the elbows and the top of the head. Have you tried pulling it out with your fingers against the lay of the hair? Oh good'o! I didn't want to sound rude, and I hate writing things as you never know what tone people are writing and what others will interpret it to say no haven't tried that yet - will give it a go and see how it goes! thank you. Yes it is mainly around his face - check hairs/collar and tail, there was a minimal amount on the tips of his body which just trimmed out but I can't really trim out the ones around his checks as it is right where he turns white so will look silly and blunt looking I think ?? Speaking of black and tans here is a picture of my little black and tan girl - her first show is on the 22nd of August - next weekend - she has been good and stays inside with me...lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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