Finnish Lapphund

[FranVT]

Luuka goes through phases with drive - or perhaps I do

[Caleebra]

Someone referred me to this thread in my intro post and I'm glad they did. I have a bit of reading ahead of me to learn more about this wonderful breed. In the meantime, before we get our pup, it is time for research and watching them being shown, while our little Havanese girl is way down the other end of the rings(could have chosen a closer breed).

Welcome to the thread & DOL UpSpitzCreek - if you come and hang out in the spitz thread you will meet lots of Lappie owners (and a few breeders!) in there - we love meeting new Lappie breed fans, and if you want to see pics we do try to make sure that there are plenty that go up! (can't let the Sammi people out-do us!) LOL

Welcome UpSpitzCreek (awesome name choice). You've come to the right place to see and hear about the escapades of Lappies.

Here and the Spitz thread should provide your daily fill. (Theres also heaps of o'seas Lappie acty on Facebook if you're on there)

I actually shortlisted a Havanese before i came across (and fell Hook, Line and Sinker for) Lappies.

Hopefully you'll meet and greet a bunch of Lappies at Sydney Royal next year....

LM: I'd think we might've been outdoing the Sammie people for a while now. In fact, at times i feel we've hijacked the Spitz thread altogether

FranCQ : i think i'm the same.

Edited October 1, 2010 by shae_girl

[UpSpitzCreek]

I agree, temperament is far more important then colouring. We are a pretty active family and luckily, in Newcastle, there are plenty of leash free areas for a good run.

Like our Havs, our Lappie, while being shown has to fit into the family first and foremost. This is why we are taking our time before "adopting" (or should that being adopted BY) our new family member.

[lappiemum]

I agree, temperament is far more important then colouring. We are a pretty active family and luckily, in Newcastle, there are plenty of leash free areas for a good run.

Like our Havs, our Lappie, while being shown has to fit into the family first and foremost. This is why we are taking our time before "adopting" (or should that being adopted BY) our new family member.

Hey USC-

The standard says the following re temperament, but I agree with Armahani in that its quite vague!

Keen, courageous, calm and willing to learn. Friendly and Faithful.

What is better is the Finnish Judges Guide, known as the Finnish Lappalaiskoiratry- which is the official standards Guide to assist in the interpretation of the Finnish Lapphund breed standard in its home country. As the ANKC standard for the Finnish Lapphund is the same here as it is in Finland, the Guide may also be useful for those breeding and assessing the conformation of the Finnish Lapphund here.

In the Guide’s opening statement, it notes that “The breed standard of the Finnish Lapphund has been intentionally kept somewhat open.”

It goes on to note that:

Minor details have never played an important part in the show rings or breeding programs, let alone when choosing a “friend for life”. Therefore, while dogs are easily identified as Finnish Lapphunds, there is still a great deal of variation within the breed – that is the beauty of the Finnish Lapphund.

Often, a breed standard only provides a description of the breed’s anatomy. It is the interpretation of that standard, which includes that “certain something” that makes a Lapphund a Lapphund, which remains unclear. As such, the Guide provides useful information on the background and purpose of the breed as well as the underlying reasons for the standards.

It is obvious that the general appearance of the Lapphund is the most essential section of the standard, giving an overall picture of the cynological type and desired proportions. In fact, the Guide notes that the general appearance should be the deciding factor when a judge places a dog at a show, as (with all breeds) even an excellent example of the breed may have minor faults when it comes to details, but it is the general appearance that should immediately revel a dog’s breed and gender, as well as indicate type at first glance.

However, the general appearance is also difficult feature to judge, particularly for what is still a relatively rare breed in Australia. An abundant coat and upright carriage together with an acceptable construction can easily mislead a judge into placing a dog well, even though the dog may be missing that ‘special something’ - a Lapphund should not resemble an Eurasier, a coloured Samoyed, or an ‘average spitz’ in general. It is only the breed-specific appearance and expression, the correct proportions, coat and movement that makes a Lapphund.

The Guide notes that temperament is most essential section in the standard. A dog with a faulty construction is still a good companion, if it is good–natured. However, in the show ring evaluation of the temperament is, of necessity, rather superficial, as the time allocated to each dog is limited.

So, what is an ideal temperament like? The Guide describes it as the following:

A Finnish Lapphund with an ideal temperament is well suited for its purpose, and in harmony with the people and animals around it; its owner in particular. The Finnish Lapphund should be calm and friendly, as well as submissive towards people. It may be a little bit distant, but never timid, although bitches may seem a little shy. Excessive sharpness and snarling are by no means acceptable features in Lapphunds, not even in males. The Finnish Lapphund should under no circumstances show any signs of aggressiveness towards people.

Finally, it is important to remember that the need to co–operate and interact with people is characteristic of herding dogs; in Lapphunds this is best seen in the handling in the ring and the relationship between dog and handler.

Hope this helps those looking at this wonderful breed!

[Bindii]

I've come across that before and wondered what the difference between 'submissive to some people' or bitches being shy to not being timid.

How can a dog/bitch be submissive or shy without that also being timid? I thought all of those were really the same thing - particularly shy and timid - that it is a lack of self confidence and both, I believe, would be displayed in a dog in the same way.

So do you think it's ok for a Lappie to look wary and perhaps duck away from you as you pat it due to the lines in this guide that suggests it's ok to be submissive or shy, or do you see it as a fault due to the line which states they should never be timid?

[armahani]

I've come across that before and wondered what the difference between 'submissive to some people' or bitches being shy to not being timid.

How can a dog/bitch be submissive or shy without that also being timid? I thought all of those were really the same thing - particularly shy and timid - that it is a lack of self confidence and both, I believe, would be displayed in a dog in the same way.

So do you think it's ok for a Lappie to look wary and perhaps duck away from you as you pat it due to the lines in this guide that suggests it's ok to be submissive or shy, or do you see it as a fault due to the line which states they should never be timid?

Bindii, I think of the showing of submission toward humans, which you will see most Lappies clearly do, and timidness as two COMPLETELY different things. I think the word submission has somehow gained some connotation over time which implies something fear based, when the reality is it is nothing to do with fear.

While I suspect the word shy has become a little confused in the translation, and shouldn't be confused with timid either. More a combination of submission and trying to describe the tendency of girls in particular to be sometimes a little less "up" - perhaps "soft" would have been a better word. Again, I don't equate "soft" with timid.

So yes, I would see timid as not being a desirable temperament in a Lappie. But being submissive and soft toward humans as completely correct. A Lappie will regularly show submissiveness without remotely looking wary!!! So no, I wouldn't be happy with a Lappie being wary and ducking away from people!!! But I would still expect a Lappie to show submissive (goofy, happy look) body language toward people. I see a big difference between fearful body language and submissive body language!

Words to describe a breed (whether they should be words on temperament or structure) should never be looked at in isolation. In this case the words "calm, friendly, submissive" go together. You can't seperate them out. A "calm, friendly, submissive" dog is a very different proposition to a "nervous, timid, submissive" dog

I remember quite the debate a number of the American Lappie people had a few years ago now about this very description of "submissive toward humans" when they were putting the finishing touches on the AKC standard and there was some concern about the confusion of this term with being fearful or timid. I'll paste below a few paras which were littered amongst a whole lot more that I wrote during that debate - significantly edited - which does make reference to their standard a bit .....

I don't equate submission with a lack of confidence. I don't equate it

with being shy, withdrawn or fearful. And I personally thought when I first

read your draft standard that balance was made quite clear.

When you describe a temperament,

surely the words don't exist in isolation, but summarise a bunch of

characteristics that work together to result in a unique character. For eg,

a dog I describe as "withdrawn, very submissive, uncertain with strangers"

is very different from one I describe as "friendly, calm and very

submissive" (obviously the second, which is close to the words in your draft

standard, I find very appropriate in its description of a FL, but not the

first). So please take everything I say as my interpretation of one

characteristic that combines with the other characteristics to make our

breed what it is.

Most FLs I meet are submissive. A few are unconfident and fearful (which I

think is incorrect). Most are confident and secure in themselves (which I

think is correct). But almost all I would still call submissive. And to be

frank it is one of the things I ADORE about the breed. It is also one of

the reasons they are so excellent with children and such good family dogs. I

personally think it is something we should definitely be promoting in the

breed, and without a doubt protecting in the future of the breed.

Watch your FL. Think about your confident, secure FL. What is their body

language when you talk to them and pat them? What is their body language

when another person approaches them? What is their body language when

another person talks to them and cuddles them? Their shoulder carriage

relaxes, their tail and bum wiggles in a happy manner, they put on what I

often call their "goofy face" (sort of that dopey looking grin they get),

their ears go back ( not fearful back, just relaxed back), they kind of

"sidle" and "snuggle" up to the person, their head lowers a little. In

canine body language it is very very clear - you are looking at submission

(generally mixed with friendliness and calmness). And almost every

confident and secure FL I know acts precisely like that with the humans

around him or her.

When a FL comes into the ring, the judge should not be expecting a dog that

is up on its toes, looking around like it can take on the world (although I

will most certainly get my FL to be standing on its toes looking desperately

at the piece of food in my hand because let's be frank, that is my way of

training out a submissive looking behaviour - again, not training out the

temperament). The judge should be expecting a softer body language. When

they approach the dog to examine it, they should expect that they will get

soft eyes, the ears back a little, the tail may wag, the dog may lower its

body slightly. Most judges will instantly recognise this (as long as it is

not accompanied by fear like behaviour) as submission. So if they know to

expect that they will judge that dog accordingly as correct in temperament.

[Esky the husky]

Great post

So is the American Standard much different than ours?

[Bindii]

Okay that makes a lot of sense actually!

I agree that submissive isn't necassarilly fearful - as dominant doesn't necasserilly mean agression- does it!

Shy and timid are very similar and perhaps in it's original language there was a word that described the difference better. But I absoloutely get what you are saying about the words in the standard not existing purely on their own. I have also never looked at submissive as the happy-go-lucky, perhaps 'goofy' way of the Lappie but can see now how that is a suitable description for that characteristic.

Thanks Armahani and happy birthday!

[whiskedaway]

That's a great description Armahani. And it's pretty true - both Ker's Sinikka and Lappiemum's Tasha have come up to me fairly confident with big smiles on their faces and just collapsed on the floor for belly rubs. That's definitely submissive (Akira would never do that) but not timid.

[armahani]

Great post

So is the American Standard much different than ours?

Yes, the AKC standard is different, and in some cases goes into a bit more detail, just because AKC won't "adopt" standards from elsewhere - they have to be their own format and level of detail etc. So adopting the FCI standard as it was wasn't an option over there. That being said, the FLCA (Finnish Lapphund Club of America) got their draft AKC standard "approved" by the Lapphund Club of Finland before submitting it, to make sure there was a general level of comfort from the country of origin and they weren't changing the breed.

You can see the AKC standard here - http://www.akc.org/breeds/finnish_lapphund/

[Esky the husky]

Oh that's interesting, and fair enough too that all their standards are in the same format.

I'm saddened that they haven't mentioned the 'zygomatic arches' in the standard. :D

But there are some part I think are explained exceptionally well.

I just found this on the Lapphund club of Great Britain's site

All colours allowed* but main colour must dominate. Markings differing from the main colour are permitted on head, neck, chest, legs, tail and underside of body.

*Acceptable colours are;

Black, Black & Tan, Black & White, Black Tan & White, Brown, Brown & Tan, Brown & White, Brown Grizzle, Brown Grizzle & White, Brown Tan & White, Brown Tan & White, Brown Wolf Sable, Brown Wolf Sable & White, Brown Wolf Sable & White,

Brown Wolf Sable & White, Brown Wolf Sable & White, Cream, Cream & White, Grizzle, Grizzle & White, Red, Red & White, Sable, Sable & White, Tricolour, White, Wolf Sable, Wolf Sable & White.

Does grizzle= brindle ??

[Caleebra]

Oh that's interesting, and fair enough too that all their standards are in the same format.

I'm saddened that they haven't mentioned the 'zygomatic arches' in the standard. :D

But there are some part I think are explained exceptionally well.

I just found this on the Lapphund club of Great Britain's site

All colours allowed* but main colour must dominate. Markings differing from the main colour are permitted on head, neck, chest, legs, tail and underside of body.

*Acceptable colours are;

Black, Black & Tan, Black & White, Black Tan & White, Brown, Brown & Tan, Brown & White, Brown Grizzle, Brown Grizzle & White, Brown Tan & White, Brown Tan & White, Brown Wolf Sable, Brown Wolf Sable & White, Brown Wolf Sable & White,

Brown Wolf Sable & White, Brown Wolf Sable & White, Cream, Cream & White, Grizzle, Grizzle & White, Red, Red & White, Sable, Sable & White, Tricolour, White, Wolf Sable, Wolf Sable & White.

Does grizzle= brindle ??

Grizzle = domino. Weird, i know.

[armahani]

Grizzle = domino. Weird, i know.

Yeah, apparently that is the only official term that the Kennel Club (UK) recognises for domino.

They also couldn't get dilutes (blue/lilac) listed as a colour term. I guess that may change if they ever get any there.

[Esky the husky]

Oh never would have guessed that!

[Ker]

So blues aren't accepted in UK? What about in Finland?

[armahani]

So blues aren't accepted in UK? What about in Finland?

Oh no no no - you completely misunderstood me

They are most certainly accepted (both there and in Finland). Just in the UK at the moment they don't have the colour there on the list to register them with.

[Fyrablade]

So blues aren't accepted in UK? What about in Finland?

Blues are accepted in Finland , Sweden and other places , I would guess if they ever produced and regested a blue in the uk then they may include them.

A friend of ours has had a blue in her recent litter , he is beautifull like Sue and Waynes Aslann. And he is in Sweden.

Im Sorry but im totally biast towards Blue Lappies.

[Esky the husky]

Who wouldn't love a blue

Would the blue lappies in the UK end up registered as blacks then?

[armahani]

Who wouldn't love a blue

Would the blue lappies in the UK end up registered as blacks then?

I'm not sure what they would do Esky. No doubt if one was born whoever the breeder was would try to argue the point with the KC. Or the FLCGB on their behalf. I'm not too sure how easy or hard it is to get colours added over there. If they weren't successfuly, I guess, yes, they'd have to use something else.

Sometimes registered colours aren't always accurate. Either because the breeder isn't sure, or because the right colours aren't available under that registries listing.

[Ker]

Im Sorry but im totally biast towards Blue Lappies.

LOL so am I. I secretly wanted a blue female, but was willing to accept any colour. I got exactly what I wanted with Snik.