Finnish Lapphund

[Esky the husky]

Thanks Lappiemum!

And the scores are written left hip/ right hip correct?

[armahani]

What's a good hip score for a Lappie?

Is 0/0 ideal?

Or is that an impossible hip score to have?

I've been looking at heaps of breeders websites and now I'm just getting confused by fractions.

The lower the score the better. A score written like that isn't a fraction , basically one of the numbers denotes the score in the left hip and the one other the one in the right hip. Sometimes they are added together to give the "total" score, but this can be sometimes meaningless (eg a total score of 12 could mean 1/11, 2/10, 3/9, 4/8, 5/7, 6/6 - all of which are quite different scores )

Yes, 0/0 is the best. That basically means "perfect" in terms of the hip structure. After that you are talking a degree of either fault in the shape or "fit" of the hip joint, or signs of degereration in the joint. There are scores given for a number of different factors, and these are then added up. Highest possible would be a 53/53 and that is VERY bad.

0/0 is not impossible - there are a handful of Lappies in Aus with that score - but it is pretty damn improbable most times (in the UK - which uses the same scoring system as us - they have far more Lappies and have never seen a score better than 3/3, so we are lucky).

Basically the idea is to breed around about the breed average or better (ie lower). It is hard to know what the breed average is here, because they haven't been collecting and anlaysing the data for a number of years, but in the UK is somewhere between a 12 and a 13 (in total) which is probably the same here, so that gives us an idea. Of course, you would think about the individual scores in making that assessment.

Theory goes that if you do that, you should maintain the breed average. If it is a breed with a known dysplasia problem, however (which Lappies generally aren't - we'd be talking one of the bigger, heavier breeds where it is a known problem, and surgical intervention may be required in bad cases), breeders probably would have a more strict strategy of only breeding well below the breed average - with the intention if actually bringing the average down. And obviously, a breeder will generally be looking at more than just the parents, but also scores in relatives etc (sibling, grandparents, aunts, uncles, etc) to get an idea of any patterns that are emerging.

But as Lappiemum says, it isn't that simple. Hips aren't one of those easily understood things. So many factors can play an influence, and even what part of the contributing factor that is genetic isn't simple.

The reassuring thing is that Lappies aren't known to have a big problem in hips. While we do see some scores much higher than we would want at times, in the main part, even those dogs tend to show very little sign of mobility problems, even late in age. It is a very rare case indeed that would need any kind of surgical treatment, and I don't think I've heard of one (although no doubt there must be a case or two somewhere in the world). Most lighter breeds are the same.

So hips is definitely something to be conscious of, to be careful of, to watch for, and to be breeding in consideration of - but not generally something a prospective puppy-owner has to be super super worried and/or panicked about like with some other breeds.

Oh, another thing. You may also see letters being used against some Lappies (A, B, C etc). That is the system used in Europe. So any dog scored in Europe will have a grade like that, rather than the numbers we use here. And sometimes even if they are scored over here, the person doing the scoring may have provided what the x-rays should have been graded if they were submitted in Europe. You can find various conversion charts to work out the equivelents, but these are notoriously inconsistent depending on where you get the chart from because it isn't a simple matter of converting the final numbers - (1) it would depend where the number fell in the scoring - numerous low scores across a number of the measurement elements can have less of a negative impact on the final grade than a really high score across one or two of the individual elements, (2) the letter grade is always based on the worst hip - and the conversion charts try to predict the letter grade according to the total (so the average of the two hips).

Okay - I've probably lost you now - so I'll go on that note!!!!

Oh and OT but Armahani your website keeps telling me this

Error: This page contains expired VisitorVille tracking code. Please notify the webmaster. Thank you.

Just thought you should know

Thanks for that. I had realised, and have fixed it on my local server, but in the middle of a whole pile of updates at the moment, so haven't been able to load the fixes onto my remote server.

[Esky the husky]

Okay - I've probably lost you now - so I'll go on that note!!!!

Not at all I appreciate being able to learn from experienced breeders.

I Literally want to know everything I can about the breed.

[lappiemum]

Okay - I've probably lost you now - so I'll go on that note!!!!

Not at all I appreciate being able to learn from experienced breeders.

I Literally want to know everything I can about the breed.

thats a good thing Esky! its important to do your research and make sure that you know as much as possible before hand

[MsKatie]

I am so falling for this breed - but not for a looonnnggg time - will get the kids grown up and independent so I can concentrate on training etc - having been lucky enough to meet the lovely Lappie girl at an Adelaide DOL meet I really think that the next dog I get (I get next pick in my family as my OH picked the Bloodhound) will be a Lappie

This thread is so useful too

Edited June 4, 2010 by KelpieHoundMum

[armahani]

I am so falling for this breed - but not for a looonnnggg time - will get the kids grown up and independent so I can concentrate on training etc - having been lucky enough to meet the lovely Lappie girl at an Adelaide DOL meet I really think that the next dog I get (I get next pick in my family as my OH picked the Bloodhound) will be a Lappie

This thread is so useful too

Oh my, a bloodhound! How adorable :-) You don't see many of them around. Who did you meet in Adelaide?

[Michelleva]

I just stumbled on this thread and it interested me because I met a lappie pup at obedience last week. OMG, he was so gorgeous, a warm caramel/chocolated coloured one. The one thing I noticed was his HUGE feet, it will be nice to see how big he gets. I thought he was a husky when I first saw him. I didn't realise they were so rare.

[MsKatie]

Oh my, a bloodhound! How adorable :-) You don't see many of them around. Who did you meet in Adelaide?

I met Sparky25's Jaana - she was such a bundle of energy - like a little furball zooming around the park

[Esky the husky]

Hey, what does this mean?

The zygomatic arches are clearly marked [defined].

-From the Finnish Lapphund breed standard

Edited July 16, 2010 by Esky the husky

[lappiemum]

Its what is usually called the cheekbone, but probably easier to show you

The curved bone above the red dot on this image is the zygomatic arch.

so for Lappies, the standard says that this area should be defined well.

The Finnish Judges Guide to the Breed Standard interprets the head as follows:

While the features of the Lapphund’s head should be strong, it should have a soft, teddy-like expression, attained with a skull that is broad and slightly convex, a stop that is clearly defined, and a muzzle that is strong, broad and shorter than the skull. The muzzle tapers only a little bit towards the nose and should be ‘full’ and well-cushioned.

The jaws should be strong and broad, with the bottom jaw in particular to be sufficiently strong. The juncture between muzzle and skull must be straight in profile, the stop clearly defined (forming an angle with the muzzle) and the frontal furrow similarly distinct and visible through the coat. While in general Finnish Lapphunds have a scissor bite, a level bite is acceptable too, although a clearly overshot or undershot is a disqualifying fault. Premolars may be missing sometimes; this should always be mentioned in the written evaluation

Does this help?

Edited July 16, 2010 by lappiemum

[Esky the husky]

So well defined is the same as a woman having really nice cheek bones?

[lappiemum]

So well defined is the same as a woman having really nice cheek bones?

Kind of LOL - some do say that showing is really a beauty contest anyway

[lana]

hi there, i came across the finnish lapphund breed and have fallen in love - they are very beautiful!

i would love to get one of my own but am a bit apprehensive because i work full time and was wondering if the breed is one that is OK to be left during the day - especially as a puppy??

[FranVT]

Hi lana!

I work full time and have a 9 month old Finnish Lapphund. When I first got her, I had 2 weeks off to acclimatise her.

Do you have another dog at all?

Where would your puppy be during the day? Is there anyone (or yourself?) who can come and check on her/him halfway through the day? Are you prepared to leave her lots of things to do to entertain her/him?

My girl has been by herself (no other dogs, no people) during the day since May. I leave her lots of things to do. Big raw bones, ice cube trays with stuff smooshed in the bottom, even a bubble machine! Lappies are very smart and love to be mentally stimulated as well as physically.

Luuka cries a little bit when I leave for work in the morning (neighbours informed me of this the other day but they are lovely and don't mind at all in fact I think they regretted telling me because I was so apologetic) and a little bit just before I get home. When I get home she goes completely mad with joy

Does this help?

[lappiemum]

Hi Lana-

Welcome to the Lappie thread In answer to your question, I would say that they are like most other breeds - they do need interaction and contact, but as Fran says if you provide the mental stimulation and regular exercise they are fine to leave alone for periods of time. I have three, and according to our neighbours they don't usually hear them during the day while we are at work - and I know that when I am home they usually sleep for most of the day!LOL They are most active in the morning and evening - but thats not to say that if I was to produce a lead for a walk at anytime they would suddenly be 100% alert!

If you are bringing in a puppy (of any breed) my advice would be to do it at a time when you can be at home with your puppy. Coming into a new home is such a big change and you really need time for your puppy to settle in, and you to establish a training routine re toileting/sleeping/eating/playing. You also need time to get to know each other - after all, you'll be together for many years to come so its important to start off on the right foot (or paw)!

[lana]

Hi FranCQ,

thanks for your reply, your advice is helpful

i don't have any other pets no, but i do work close to home and was planning to check in on my lunch breaks and also as you suggested, take some time off work to help the pup adjust to my house.

I have read its useful to try and get the puppy use to you leaving gradually - did you do anything like this?

I'd definately look into toys and things to keep him amused, the ice cube trays and bubble machine sound like great ideas!

So do you keep your dog indoors while you're not home, or outside now that its a bit older?

your dog looks beautiful!!

[FranVT]

Thanks! Here's another pic I prepared earlier...

Couldn't help myself! I am proud of that photo!

Anyway, yes I stayed home with her for a couple of days (at that stage I had a 2 year old bull terrier male that I wanted to get used to her with me around) but after a couple of days I would leave for a little while. At first I separated the two dogs but she cried being away from him Sorry that is irrelevant but cute. I keep Luuka inside because the place I'm living doesn't have a fence. She has access to a large veranda and, recently, a large hardwood floor area and some slate. If I had a fence and it was nice and secure I'd leave her outside. She's never tried to escape a yard I've had her in as long as she has heaps of stuff to do.

She loves routine and is happiest when things go along as they normally do Every morning around 630am I get up and take her outside for a wee. Even if I go back to sleep afterwards, I make sure this is done. We come back inside and she has her breakfast. Every afternoon when I get home we go for a wee and then we go to the dog park so she can have some exercise / socialising time. She is a bold but gentle puppy with other dogs - with lappies it's very important that you keep an eye on them playing with other dogs because they sometimes don't know when to back off

[lana]

Hi Lana-

Welcome to the Lappie thread In answer to your question, I would say that they are like most other breeds - they do need interaction and contact, but as Fran says if you provide the mental stimulation and regular exercise they are fine to leave alone for periods of time. I have three, and according to our neighbours they don't usually hear them during the day while we are at work - and I know that when I am home they usually sleep for most of the day!LOL They are most active in the morning and evening - but thats not to say that if I was to produce a lead for a walk at anytime they would suddenly be 100% alert!

If you are bringing in a puppy (of any breed) my advice would be to do it at a time when you can be at home with your puppy. Coming into a new home is such a big change and you really need time for your puppy to settle in, and you to establish a training routine re toileting/sleeping/eating/playing. You also need time to get to know each other - after all, you'll be together for many years to come so its important to start off on the right foot (or paw)!

Hi lappie Mum

Thanks for replying, you ladies are a wonderful help and have put my mind a bit more ease.

I'm a big dog person but have never had the chance to own my own (my family had two rottweilers growing up that were beautiful, god bless them!) and am really excited to get a lapphund and spend as much time with it as possible! From everything I've read they sound like a wonderful breed, thanks again!

[lana]

Thanks! Here's another pic I prepared earlier...

Couldn't help myself! I am proud of that photo!

Anyway, yes I stayed home with her for a couple of days (at that stage I had a 2 year old bull terrier male that I wanted to get used to her with me around) but after a couple of days I would leave for a little while. At first I separated the two dogs but she cried being away from him Sorry that is irrelevant but cute. I keep Luuka inside because the place I'm living doesn't have a fence. She has access to a large veranda and, recently, a large hardwood floor area and some slate. If I had a fence and it was nice and secure I'd leave her outside. She's never tried to escape a yard I've had her in as long as she has heaps of stuff to do.

She loves routine and is happiest when things go along as they normally do Every morning around 630am I get up and take her outside for a wee. Even if I go back to sleep afterwards, I make sure this is done. We come back inside and she has her breakfast. Every afternoon when I get home we go for a wee and then we go to the dog park so she can have some exercise / socialising time. She is a bold but gentle puppy with other dogs - with lappies it's very important that you keep an eye on them playing with other dogs because they sometimes don't know when to back off

she is adorable! i would be very proud to show her off as well!! LOL

a routine is something that would suit me perfectly so hopefully that will help the puppy to adjust - i'll just have to look into a dog park as i don't know any other pups to play with.

thanks again for sharing about your girl

[FranVT]

You're welcome. They really are a wonderful breed. I get a bit lonely all the way up here with no fellow Spitzers but this forum is fantastic for advice and sharing victories/failures