Royal Canin To Bonnie...

[Gayle.]

also been advised to cut out the dry food in the morning and replace with brisket bones or chicken carcasses. does anyone have preferences with what kind of raw bones etc

Either will be good, just buy a variety and the dogs will love the change from boring old kibble. Raw meaty bones will give their teeth and jaws the job they were designed to do......rip and tear at meat and crunch raw bones. Avoid the weight bearing bones (marrow bones) as they are too dense for the dogs to eat and the marrow is very high in fat.

Pop into the raw food chit chat thread for some great info on what to feed.

[mudget]

Neither the packaging, nor the information brochure for GSD makes comment about the shape of the kibble. It makes no claims regarding GVD so one must be careful in using this line of promotion in order to sell the food! I would suggest Lisa that you ask your rep what his/her facts are on this.

As has been said, the reasons for GVD/bloat are many and varied and so far there are still no absolutes. We held discussions with Advance when their initial promos on the Large/Giant food claimed it would reduce the incidence of GVD.

Can you imagine selling a bag of food to someone based on an unproveable claim such as this and then the dog getting bloat!

Sags

Sags, this is taken directly from the RC website:

Cross-Shaped Kibble

The unique shape and size encourages your German Shepherd to chew, promoting better digestion with less gas and diarrhea while slowing ingestion, which may also help prevent bloat.

This is in one of the information booklets on the GSD food specifically (not the all breed one, this is a book specifically on GSD. If you so desire I can send you a copy in the mail or you can dl a PDF copy here: http://www.royalcanin.us/brochures/MAXI_Ge...4_brochure.pdf)

Objective 3: Help to prevent

distension and/or torsion

After a meal, the stomach can achieve a volume of 1 gallon in a 33 lb. dog and up to about 2

gallons in a large breed dog. This predisposition to distension, associated to a relative laxity of

the stomach’s means of attachment to the abdomen, means that the dog is predisposed to bloat,

or gastric dilatation volvulus syndrome. This complaint is fatal in 30% of cases.

l There are several factors that heighten the risk of stomach

torsion/distension:

- Size: heightened risk in large and giant-breed dogs (Glickman, 1994)

- Age: heightened risk in animals over two years old (Glickman, 1994)

- Sex: heightened risk in males (Glickman, 1997; Bright, 2003)

- Quantity of food ingested: heightened risk in the event of ingestion of a large quantity of

food (Glickman, 1997)

- Speed of ingestion: heightened risk in the event of fast ingestion (Glickman, 1997)

- Stress: heightened risk in the event of stress (Glickman, 1997)

Another significant risk factor that also needs to be considered is the breed.

Breeds with a higher ribcage depth/width ratio, like the Great Dane or, to a lesser degree, the

German Shepherd, appear to be more at risk of developing this complaint than other dogs.

The elaboration of the German Shepherd 24 kibble is the result of a

great many trials at kennels.

Ten prototypes were tested. The animals’ physical and physiological reactions,

the time they took to eat and the effects on digestion were recorded in

true-to-life conditions.

The cross-shaped German Shepherd 24 kibble came through the various

stages of development with success. Its shape and dimension encourage the

animal to chew.

If you have any more questions regarding the research I suggest you contact RC directly either by calling them (1300 657 021) or fill out an enquiry form http://www.royalcanin.com.au/index.php/royal-canin

[Sagittarian]

Hi Lisa,

Thanks for that info.

The unique shape and size encourages your German Shepherd to chew, promoting better digestion with less gas and diarrhea while slowing ingestion, which may also help prevent bloat.

(RC website)

I really don't wish to appear argumentative here, but there is a difference in saying the shape or size of a kibble encourages chewing, promoting better digestion etc and saying the shape of the kibble is important in the way it breaks down in the gut.

I actually do demonstrator work for RC which is why I know so much about it. My rep informed me of this. Apparently the shape of the kibble is important in the way it breaks down in the gut.

(your earlier comment)

We all want our dogs to chew, rather than gulp, if for no other reason than to use their teeth. The bigger, or stranger shape the kibble, the more chance of slowing down a fast eater - the same as using a slow feeder bowl or throwing the food around the garden will slow them.

RC don't appear to claim that once in the stomach, the kibble shape somehow helps reduce the risk of bloat. It is more that by promoting a more methodical approach to chewing, that less air (which can quickly fill the tummy of a gulper) will make up the mix. Was that what you meant?

kibble shape specific for deep chested breeds, to reduce the incidence of bloat (very important!).

This was the comment that concerned me, as there are many deep chested breeds that are prone to GVD, yet no specific kibble designed for them. Should those of us with bloat prone breeds be using GSD?

GVD has many factors involved (and a lot that are more recently researched than the ones you've quoted). Not all factors are present in every case. It would be nice to say with confidence that being using a particular food that you are not contributing to food-based GVD. It just isn't that simple though.

All I'm asking is that anyone representing a company or food really do research what is behind any claims and use the information in a way that isn't confusing. I believe you have a deep chested breed that is one of the worst for bloat, so it is great if this thread encourages you to continue to research and learn about the many factors involved.

Always good to have discussion points.

Sags

[Sagittarian]

we have 2 beautiful German Shep puppies who are 10-months old. currently we were feeding them Royal Canin but have now been advised by our breeder to switch to Bonnie Adult Formula as they are growing very quickly! good advice!

Has anyone used Bonnie before? I know it's easy to get, but would just like to hear your thoughts...

also been advised to cut out the dry food in the morning and replace with brisket bones or chicken carcasses. does anyone have preferences with what kind of raw bones etc

the way our pups eat chicken wings as a treat im scared they get stuck in their throat!!

The majority of GSD breeders we deal with that use premium foods, tend to keep them on the recommendation of 14-18mths on puppy food. This allows final upward growth to be supported by the correct calcium ratio, along with the additional mineral and vitamin profile for puppies. By having the correct nutrition at this age, their rapid growth will be propped up properly.

If they are getting a little overweight, better to slightly reduce the portions than to drastically play with their diet. Chicken carcasses, roo tails with lots of meat to pull off (if roo doesn't upset them) and perhaps adding a vege slop mix will keep them busy with their food (thus helping them feel full) without adding a ton of calories.

As with any bones, supervision is essential, particularly when trying new types out.

They look gorgeous.

;)

Sags

edition to add: if they are not getting fat, but are simply growing tall, that is just their genes I'm afraid. Even the leanest dog will end up at its predisposed height.

Edited August 15, 2009 by Sagittarian

[mudget]

Sags, just to further add re kibble shape of the GSD food:

I have spoken with my rep for find out more info for you and my understanding is this - the kibble breaks down into smaller pieces in the gut a lot quicker following chewing so that it can be digested faster. I understand this reduces fermination in the stomach, which can lead to the increase in gas etc in the stomach. If you wish to find out more I suggest you contact them directly as I only demonstrate casually (I work ft).

A Great Dane kennel owner actually uses te RC GSD food (Great Danes were found to have the highest incidence of bloat - University of Purdue, US study on GDV), and while I do not regularily use it for my wei (although on occasion they do get it) I have not had any issues with bloat (touch wood!) as I ensure I don't exercise directly before or after eating, make sure she doesn't drink to excess and have made myself aware of the symptoms so I can get her to a vet immediately should the unfortunate happen. I have not opted for a prophylactic gastropexy, which is common amongst weis. Bloat is not only limited to deep chested breeds - while more common - my rep breeds and shows samoyeds and was fortunate to catch one of her bitches before it was to late...

On a side note, and coming back to the original point of this thread - my wei is actually taller than the average wei female, but if you maintain a puppy formula until 18 months this should be fine to ensure correct skeletal growth and appropriate protein and calorie intake for a growing dog. In agreement to Sags, they will grow to their predetermined height regardless of how much, or what we give them (unless they are deficient, which will just lead to deformaties) and so long as they are given the right level of nutrients and minerals to support their growth you should be fine. I monitor my dogs' body condition to determine whether to cut back or add more - my wei doesn't hold weight well so I adjust as needed to maintain healthy body condition, although I don't think this tends to be such an issue with GSD in my experience.

[Gayle.]

OK, I'm intrigued. How exactly do you demonstrate kibble?

I've seen people demonstrating cooking appliances, food mixes, baked goods etc, but I have never seen anyone demonstrate kibble. Do you invite dogs along to taste it or something? Or have your own dog there with you?

[CoupeDash]

all this info is great - thanks guys!

after looking through everyones posts and taking on board what you are advising... i think we'll stay on RC. it looks like the majority have the advice of keeping them on the junior RC instead of moving them onto the adult formula just yet.

right now their getting chicken frames (absolutely loved them!!) ;) and grabbed a couple of roo tails.. for the morning. or alternating with a bone..

and in the evening having their royal canin about 5ish before their walk at night.

thanks again for everything!

helps to ask help sometimes...

[persephone]

about 5ish before their walk at night.

A suggestion- it is best to NOT exercise dogs after a meal.... from my reading, anyway

I have always given mine their last meal before bed... settles them for the night ;)

[mudget]

OK, I'm intrigued. How exactly do you demonstrate kibble?

I've seen people demonstrating cooking appliances, food mixes, baked goods etc, but I have never seen anyone demonstrate kibble. Do you invite dogs along to taste it or something? Or have your own dog there with you?

Actually we do! I do both - we have bowls set up so people can give some to their dogs - mainly for palatability, but I do take my dogs with me sometimes(Loki the aussie is a great demo dog cause he likes to show off!). Many other premium brands do this too. It's great for people to get a real hands-on to see the kibble, especially because we have breed specific and giant breed formula (eg lab food is a cheezle shape to encourage chewing rather than scoffing, mini food is nice a small but good for cleaning teeth, giant is a really nice big kibble so they don't end up with it up their nose!).

CoupeDash - Glad we've helped solve your dilemma! I feed my dogs when I get home from work (used to feed at 5pm but now I don't finish til later so is around 7pm). If I am going to exercise them I hold off their dinner until after their run, and wait around half an hour to an hour before they get fed. Again, this is another way of reducing the chance of bloat and lets them settle down a bit before eating ;)