Agility Handling System For Clingy Dogs

[ness]

Cos the judge was feeling just a little sorry for me :D - was definitely very much a sympathy pass but then I have also had a number of contacts called as misses that I know she had got so I guess the nice call on this occasion was about due .

[Casima]

Where do you reward your dog? if the rewards are always by your side (very easy to do with a food dog) then the dog isn't going to see much of a reason to drive on ahead make sure you have a way to throw a reward ahead to your dog if you don't already. If you do already reward by throwing ahead, have a look at your timing, if the dog has time to turn back and look at you before you reward you need to throw sooner.

The first send I have taught all my dogs was a simple send to tunnel, I start close and make sure I have a reward that I can throw so the dog can get it as soon as they exit the tunnel, I do this when I am standing still (never had a problem when I have added movement once sequencing) and slowly increase distance to the entrance to the tunnel, don't go to fast you want to build lots of value for the behaviour. Once we are far enough away I put a jump in the dogs path and keep increasing to 2 or 3 jumps before the tunnel (I don't verbally cue the jumps, for my dogs I want them to automatically do all jumps in their path) always throwing the reward to the tunnel exit. (Once my dog gets keen on the tunnel sends I throw in the odd call off also and reward that too so I hopefully don't end up with a tunnel monster)

The second send I teach is a straight line of jumps, we start running together and I keep running straight with my focus ahead and same speed like I was handling a course, once the dog is commited to the last jump I throw the reward forward in front of the dog, start with less jumps and work up to more and more when the dog is predicting reward and driving ahead. Like the tunnel send once my dog is getting good at it I will throw in the odd turn cue (can be a deceleration, rear cross or jump wrap front cross.) and reward for those so the dog doesn't learn to ignore my handling when presented with a line of jumps. I don't really need a verbal cue to get my dog doing this, my running parallel to the dog is enough, but sometimes I will add in a "go go" cue.

Like Vickie said, rear crosses are very useful when you are level with your dog too and I use different handling to her :D

[JulesP]

Thanks Ness. Poppy is about as fast as Ness, she might end up faster as she has only just started. Brock is slower!

I did a heaps of food throwing in agility but have had to scale that back a bit as it was causing problems in obedience, too much sniffing at leaves in case they were treats.

I'll try with the tunnel but I don't have great tunnel suck.

Having some success with Poppy and a standing rear cross. It might even be that they are too aware of me, so the slightest deceleration as I go to cross makes them halt. They are both super sensitive to what I am doing.

I guess I feel that rather than making them into something that they aren't, that I need to change what I am doing. Maybe that is wrong.

[ness]

Ness actually started off faster then that - she has slowed down now. As for the food throwing causing sniffing in obedience - Ness is a mega foody dog who cares for nothing except for sniffing for food at the park really but even she doesn't sniff when we do obedience. I use big pieces that won't break up when thrown so they don't sniff. They can find the piece relatively easy snatch it and then I will call them so they get there focus back to me and then throw another piece.

Edited August 12, 2009 by ness

[alanglen]

I'll give you an odd answer! My two older girls were glue girls and I forever seemed to be trying to drive them forawrds, it would work for a while or in training but not when it mattered. We have now changd theories, now I only reward for drive, ahead of behind me and we have lots more fun and forgive the mistakes and slowly but surely they are starting to drive forward on their own!

[borderstaff]

Hey jules

I have instructed both you and Brock a number of time and i think you are selling him short...He will play games and he does get exited i have seen it with my own eyes.

When you run fast and encourage him with an excited voice he runs so much faster but when you put in 50% then so does he.some dogs need 110% excitement all the time. We are training Ace our young dog and let me tell you its HARD work but with a lot of training playing games such as Susan Garrett crate games, ready set go game, all with different toys all the time different sounding toys we are always changing them around his motivation is getting so much better he gets so excited to go to the agility ring now and is proforming so much fast its quite amazing...Its hard work and you have to really want to get the drive going...we look like absolute idiots when doing it and boy does it take it out of ya but Ace just loves it.....

don't reside to the fact you think Brock is not like most border collies i dont believe that for a second cause i can definitely see it in him. i can get him playing and excited and i have seen you do it too. He is not as Crazy & massively high drive like my girls Kirra and Nakita but thats not always a good thing hahahahah. but know he does have it in him

Brock is very eager to please and will get faster if and only if you put in 100% and run with him fast ALL the time not sometimes. Talk to him while you are running get the excitement level going.im not saying its a walk in the park its dam hard work but once he gets going he will be unstoppable....

and we have all told you millions of times Brock would love novice and have no problems there is no reason what so ever not to put him in a comp no reason at all...

Stress less play games keep it fun even if you keep it short but go nuts have fun and keep that excitement level right up there

have more confidence in yourself you really can do it.

[JulesP]

Opps sprung!

[borderstaff]

Opps sprung!

you sure have been my dear.....

[Vickie]

I guess I feel that rather than making them into something that they aren't, that I need to change what I am doing. Maybe that is wrong.

That's an interesting statement. The way I see it, our dogs are a product of what we do with them. I don't doubt that some breeds & individuals are more challenging than others but none are born with competition agility skills. They are what we make them and as Katie says, to get effort, we need to put in effort.

[JulesP]

Doing the herding has taught me a heap about what my dogs do 'naturally'. That is what I mean. They naturally aren't run in a straight line miles away from me type herding dogs. All dogs have natural instincts and ways of working. As a trainer I also try and improve what I do. I try and manipulate my dog's natural abilities. The one size fits all dogs is not a good approach to training IMO.

I put in a heap of effort Vickie. I train everyday and go to dog school every week.

[Kavik]

I put in a heap of effort too, but have run into a problem in that Kaos has been running off at competitions - last time was at the start line before we even started!

So I am changing what I am doing to try to fix the problem on a few different fronts.

A good part of that is my confidence level at comps and how I handle differently at trials and training.

[JulesP]

That is a bit cheeky! I would be catching mine, slapping them on lead and putting them in the car for that. Brock is umm super friendly and I can see him going and kissing the judge in the middle of a run

[Kavik]

Kaos is the first dog I have actually competed with, so there are a few transition from training to competing bugs to iron out for both of us

[JulesP]

One thing I really need to work on is not stopping dead with shock when a move goes right!

[PAX]

If they were a different breed it wouldn't worry me!

I don't understand why you say that?

You own the best breed of dog and a dog that is bred to work away from the handler. There are heaps of ways to train your problem, I think you need to find your dogs biggest motivater and build on that. Maybe you are lumping what you should be training????

Find a good trainer (someone you admire) to help you.

[JulesP]

I said that because if they were a different breed then I wouldn't get half the negative comments about their speed that I get. I would get 'good on you for having a go' comments. I've owned BC for 18 years Pax.

Both dogs main motivator is me. Which is why they run as fast as me. Unfortunately I don't run real fast anymore.

I do have good trainers. However I know that there are other handling systems which is what this thread is about. I wanted to know if other systems allowed for closer handling.

[Kavik]

From what I can gather, both main handling systems encourage distance and independence. However if you don't have distance you just have to go with the dog. The main differences I can see are in lead outs and things like serps/threadles, not in distance work. I'm not sure how they could allow for closer handling. How would you like a handling system to be different to the one you use? What would you like to achieve?

[Agility Dogs]

Hi Jules,

You are going to hate me for saying this and I will not be offended if you disagree, but I really think that most dogs with perceived 'speed issues' like you have with Brock and I have with CK are not really speed or motivation issues. I think they often are understanding issues.

IMO because they are soft dogs who really want to please they are hesitant to take the risks and get crazy like other dogs might. (Xena vs CK for example). That said have a look at some of the quick/drivey dogs when their handlers try for independent contacts or something similar (like Xena atm - this is our current project) - the picture looks different for the dog so the dog slows down.

With only your description to go on it sounds very much to me that your dogs have a good understanding of the activities/equipment at a basic level, but when they are put under any pressure they are not fully across what you are asking for. Someone else mentioned lumping earlier - Big Rocks are harder to climb and any change in the picture can be a big rock to a dog. Watching green dogs trying to do 270's without a lot of support or baby sitting is a really good example of what I am talking about. For a young dog the handler taking one less step towards the 270 can be a real challenge to their understanding and often you get one of two behaviours - wrong course (Xena in times gone by) or shut down and walk (CK to an extent still.)

I've used my dogs as an example, but there are numerous other dogs I train with that have the same issue - as they become more confident they get quicker.

Desire, Understanding, Speed.......

Just a thought that it may not be the handling system. I know you are putting in a lot of effort - maybe back off on that a little and make what you are doing special. Only do 2 or 3 reps a day and get them doing something else for a change. Just make training a game with a ball that happens to involve an obstacle every so often. (This is working with CK.) Change the picture for the puppies (and you) so that agility becomes exciting, not the every day.

This is working with CK and might just be a different perspective on your problem. FTR - yes, I am pretty quick on my feet for an ageing runner, but if CK is 'off' it doesn't matter how quick I am he won't chase me - he has to be interested and understand what I am asking for.

Oh - there's another thing. The level of reward he gets mirrors the effort he puts in - if he gets it right, but is slow he might only get a pat, but if he is rocketing he gets the maximum reward.

Hope that helps.

Cheers

Tony

[Kavik]

Jules

Have you watched Susan Garrett's Success With One Jump? I am rewatching it now in light of my problems with Kaos, even though I don't use her handling style, many of the exercises and points she makes are valid regardless of handling style. There are some great ideas and some very good points to consider in there.

The themes that I am taking out of it are:

* The importance of building value for obstacles/positions

* The importance of understanding -

One example she brought up which is valid in this thread was an exercise she taught where one part of a pair was to teach their dog to get as of a much distance send to a pause box (drop in a box, like the table) as they could, the other person was to see how many positions they could be in and have their dog still do the pause box. She found that the dogs who had been taught to do the pause box regardless of where the handler was or what the handler was doing had a greater understanding of the exercise and would drive further and harder to the box than those who had pushed for distance. I think it is easy to get so hung up on distance in agility (I am guilty too) whereas if the dog really understands and you proof the understanding, that distance will come.

* To give the dog the same picture in training that they are going to see in competition - this was in regards to where you are on a lead out with a jump, but is just as valid for any obstacle.

[JulesP]

Thanks Agility Dogs. Your CK does remind me a heap of Brock. Yes Brock is very soft and does hate making a mistake. He has been quite tricky to train in general.

Yep I've watched One Jump. Brock was fairly tragic at the exercises. So I tried with Poppy and she was good!

p.s. the reason I keep doing with agility with Brock is he does love it! His tail wags away (in a gentle fashion!) lol.