Staranais Posted August 12, 2009 Share Posted August 12, 2009 If veterinarians were accountable then at least so far as potentially lethal drugs are concerned, they would be required to sign for all that they acquire and account for their use then, perhaps, that 17 year old lad may still be alive as well as one quite exceptional veterinarian. They are expected to account for restricted drugs, over here in NZ anyway. But being a veterinarian is a position of trust - like a doctor, lawyer, dentist - you are background checked before you're admitted to the profession, and then you do get access to things other people don't, since you need them to do your job. So it's very easy for a vet to get drugs ordered in and then make them "disappear" by saying you're using them on some animal or other, or claiming they have expired and were disposed of. Most vets who abuse drugs unfortunately tend to do so by taking them themselves, either recreationally, or to commit suicide. Off topic, but being a vet (or vet student) is apparently one of the worse professions for suicide. They actually give us lectures on how not to abuse drugs, and how not to kill ourselves when we get out into practice, at vet school. A worry, huh? Back to the original topic, though, I think you need to find a new vet. I've never had a vet give a clinical exam without abdominal palpation, or give me drugs out of the foil packet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
~Anne~ Posted August 12, 2009 Share Posted August 12, 2009 Who is your vet? Since you ask, this one http://www.news.com.au/perthnow/story/0,21...5007222,00.html ........................ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poodle proud Posted August 13, 2009 Share Posted August 13, 2009 relating to the issue of medications: In my entire life I have never got medications for a dog ina foil packet except where I was told to go to the chemist to get the medications myself. Every vet I have been to has always dispensed medication out of a bottle into a plastic sleeve with the name of the medication, expiration date etc on the sleeve. Is that not ok? I have been to approx 7 vets in 2 states and this was standard practice at every one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stormie Posted August 13, 2009 Share Posted August 13, 2009 If veterinarians were accountable then at least so far as potentially lethal drugs are concerned, they would be required to sign for all that they acquire and account for their use then, perhaps, that 17 year old lad may still be alive as well as one quite exceptional veterinarian. I'm confused... Vets do have to sign for drugs they acquire etc and also have to account for their use??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dogs4Fun Posted August 13, 2009 Share Posted August 13, 2009 relating to the issue of medications: In my entire life I have never got medications for a dog ina foil packet except where I was told to go to the chemist to get the medications myself. Every vet I have been to has always dispensed medication out of a bottle into a plastic sleeve with the name of the medication, expiration date etc on the sleeve. Is that not ok? I have been to approx 7 vets in 2 states and this was standard practice at every one. The majority of drugs can be dispensed this way. Some drugs come in foil packaging, and are left in this when dispensed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Do No Harm Posted August 13, 2009 Author Share Posted August 13, 2009 (edited) Every vet I have been to has always dispensed medication out of a bottle into a plastic sleeve with the name of the medication, expiration date etc on the sleeve. Is that not ok? I have been to approx 7 vets in 2 states and this was standard practice at every one. Here is some information: "I have since had a discussion with the Registrar of the Veterinary Practitioners Board of New South Wales about your concerns. He informed me that expiry dates and batch numbers are not required to be indicated on the label of dispensed medicines in NSW. Veterinary practices are also not required to keep documentation of the batch number on the patient's record". That is from the National AVA with this link http://www.vpb.nsw.gov.au/managed_code/upl...isons_guide.pdf I have been advised that this general protocol also applies in Victoria and Qld. I did have a link to a pdf file from Vic govt confirming this but am unable to locate it right now. Confirmation of the rules that apply in Qld came from a Qld veterinarian. I have been unable to obtain any information from any source to indicate that any state or territory in Australia has any obligation beyond this general protocol. Then there is this which came from the Pharmaceutical Services Branch of the WA Health Dept: "Under the poisons Regulations 1965 when a veterinary surgeon supplies a scheduled poison to the owner of an animal it must be labelled with the following- 1) the words 'Keep out of reach of children' 2) Name and strength of poison in preparation or the trade name 3) the owners name and species of animal 4) instructions for the use of the medicine or product 5) the date of supply and a prescription (or reference) number 6) name and address of the veterinary practice 7) the words 'For veterinary use only or 'For animal treatment only' and 'For external use only' if the preparation is not for internal use and 8) the total quantity contained" Obviously there may be individual veterinarians who dispense 'above and beyond' the legal requirements, but the fact remains they are not legally obliged to provide the information which I've expressed concerns about being omitted. Most do not go 'above and beyond' what they are legally required to do. Edited August 13, 2009 by Do No Harm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Do No Harm Posted August 13, 2009 Author Share Posted August 13, 2009 They are expected to account for restricted drugs, over here in NZ anyway. A veterinarian told me 2 months ago when I specifically asked about this, that when she graduated 16 years ago vets were required to sign for and account for their use of all Scheduled drugs, then added that they are no longer required to do so. This is in WA. I don't know about elsewhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dogs4Fun Posted August 13, 2009 Share Posted August 13, 2009 They are expected to account for restricted drugs, over here in NZ anyway. A veterinarian told me 2 months ago when I specifically asked about this, that when she graduated 16 years ago vets were required to sign for and account for their use of all Scheduled drugs, then added that they are no longer required to do so. This is in WA. I don't know about elsewhere. There has certainly been CHANGES in the sheduling of some drugs and the requirements for record keeping for different drug classes, but there is awide range of drugs that still require record keeping. Perhaps this veterinarian does not use any drugs that remain on schedules that require record keeping. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Do No Harm Posted August 13, 2009 Author Share Posted August 13, 2009 (edited) Who is your vet? Since you ask, this one http://www.news.com.au/perthnow/story/0,21...5007222,00.html ........................ I do enjoy these funny little icons, LOL. Seriously though, I have to add with regard to that link that the media did provide very emotionally charged and sensational coverage of the accusations made against this vet and the fact remains that the claims/charges against him were never subjected to challenge and scrutiny in a court of law. I discovered that he was very compassionate and caring as a vet. He did do a tremendous amount of work for refuges and rescue agencies as well as attending to injured wildlife. He had a soft spot for 'strays' - animals and seemingly humans as well. I know from when I initially sought his help with my own dog that he was (perhaps too) trusting in that without even recording my contact details he refused any payment of 4 consultations - including treatment and supply of additonal medication - until he was satisfied she was OK. I've also been told of an incident where he was woken around 1:00am because a dog had been very badly injured and instead of suggesting the dog be taken to the emergency section in the teaching hospital not far away, he attended to it himself - and the dog fully recovered. Don't take too much notice of his expression in the photo accompanying the article which was obviously taken by prying media. He often smiled, was quick witted and had a wonderful sense of humor. He told me of an occasion where he had once trained an Afghan Hound to Guide Dog level, and accompanied by that dog he boarded an aircraft in Adelaide to come to WA. With the dog in cabin beside him he waited until the plane started moving then took off his dark glasses and started to read the newspaper. Now, a bit of O/T. I've just noticed something in the left column as I type this so I'm going to try a little experiment. Let's see if it works..... Oh, surprise, surprise, it DID, LOL! Edited August 13, 2009 by Do No Harm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Do No Harm Posted August 13, 2009 Author Share Posted August 13, 2009 (edited) Perhaps this veterinarian does not use any drugs that remain on schedules that require record keeping. I think you'd find that almost all drugs prescibed and dispensed by veterinarians for owners to take home are covered by the Poisons Act. Also drugs routinely used by veterinarians 'in house' (sedatives, anesthetics etc come readily to mind) are all classified as Scheduled drugs because they are poisons (and therefore are covered by the Poisons Act). A pharmacist I spoke with recently was alarmed that vets are not required to provide the Expiry Date and Batch Number of drugs they supply to clients. With regard to the supply of these items there clearly is a double standard and, to my mind at least, drugs are drugs and whether they are supplied by a veteriarian or a pharmacist they are still handed to a person who from that point has control over them. It does appear that our legislators do not consider this from the fundamental perspective of scheduled drugs reaching the general public. They (legislator) seem to view it only from the perspective of drugs supplied by pharmacists being intended for human use and drugs supplied by veterinarians being intended for animal use - with the latter having less protective regulation. Some scheduled medication/drugs are used both by humans and animals. They are identical! They have the same compostion, the same manufacturer and the same product name. So, why do different rules apply (based only on who prescibed them) given that safety is supposed to be the primary consideration? It doesn't seem to make any sense! Edited August 13, 2009 by Do No Harm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dogs4Fun Posted August 13, 2009 Share Posted August 13, 2009 Perhaps this veterinarian does not use any drugs that remain on schedules that require record keeping. I think you'd find that almost all drugs prescibed and dispensed by veterinarians for owners to take home are covered by the Poisons Act. Also drugs routinely used by veterinarians 'in house' (sedatives, anesthetics etc come readily to mind) are all classified as Scheduled drugs because they are poisons (and therefore are covered by the Poisons Act). A pharmacist I spoke with recently was alarmed that vets are not required to provide the Expiry Date and Batch Number of drugs they supply to clients. With regard to the supply of these items there clearly is a double standard and, to my mind at least, drugs are drugs and whether they are supplied by a veteriarian or a pharmacist they are still handed to a person who from that point has control over them. It does appear that our legislators do not consider this from the fundamental perspective of scheduled drugs reaching the general public. They (legislator) seem to view it only from the perspective of drugs supplied by pharmacists being intended for human use and drugs supplied by veterinarians being intended for animal use - with the latter having less protective regulation. Some scheduled medication/drugs are used both by humans and animals. They are identical, the same compostion, the same manufacturer and the same product name. So, why do different rules apply (based only on who prescibed them) given that safety is supposed to be the primary consideration? It doesn't seem to make any sense! You don't understand the difference in classifcation of drugs in this area. Only some scheduled drugs require record keeping. Most common anaesthetic agents and sedative do not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stormie Posted August 13, 2009 Share Posted August 13, 2009 All our S8's (Controlled Drugs) need to be accounted for. Every amount taken from the bottle/box needs to be documented and signed off. Do No Harm - can you give me a serious reason why you feel the expiry date and batch number should be written on the label for the clients? In what circumstances do you feel the client needs this information? I'm genuinely asking... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kendall Posted August 13, 2009 Share Posted August 13, 2009 Is this the same vet you are talking about in your opening post? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Do No Harm Posted August 13, 2009 Author Share Posted August 13, 2009 (edited) Is this the same vet you are talking about in your opening post? If you are meaning the now deceased veterinarian I identified in a previous post. No. My opening post (and start of this thread) was intended only to draw attention to an exisiting situation that, from my perspective seemed to not be good policy because it lacks normal safeguards and, after discovering that every dog owner I know bar one shared my concern when I drew their attention to it. I was merely raising the issue here to see whether other dog owners might agree. I had anticpated that those on this forum might be surprised and say they'd never even thought about it, because that was the inital response when I mentioned it to those I know (129 at last count). I sure didn't expect the responses here that resulted! Edited August 13, 2009 by Do No Harm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Do No Harm Posted August 13, 2009 Author Share Posted August 13, 2009 Do No Harm - can you give me a serious reason why you feel the expiry date and batch number should be written on the label for the clients? In what circumstances do you feel the client needs this information? I'm genuinely asking... I believe the answers are in my earlier posts. May I now ask a question of you, please? Can you explain why the Expiry Date and Batch Number information should not and need not be provided to the person who purchases the medicine to give to their dog, please? Thank you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staranais Posted August 13, 2009 Share Posted August 13, 2009 Do No Harm - can you give me a serious reason why you feel the expiry date and batch number should be written on the label for the clients? In what circumstances do you feel the client needs this information? I'm genuinely asking... I believe the answers are in my earlier posts. May I now ask a question of you, please? Can you explain why the Expiry Date and Batch Number information should not and need not be provided to the person who purchases the medicine to give to their dog, please? Thank you. I actually think it would be a good idea to be provided, although I don't think medicines should generally be dispensed so far in advance that the use by date actually becomes an issue. If I were a vet, I wouldn't generally want my clients storing medicine up to use later, no matter what the expiry date said. However, if people are concerned, I imagine there's nothing to stop them asking their own vet for the use by date when they purchase the drugs. The vet doesn't have to give it to you, but you don't have to go back either - use your consumer power! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stormie Posted August 13, 2009 Share Posted August 13, 2009 Do No Harm - can you give me a serious reason why you feel the expiry date and batch number should be written on the label for the clients? In what circumstances do you feel the client needs this information? I'm genuinely asking... I believe the answers are in my earlier posts. May I now ask a question of you, please? Can you explain why the Expiry Date and Batch Number information should not and need not be provided to the person who purchases the medicine to give to their dog, please? Thank you. I never said it should not, but more that I don't think its essential to be there. As I said earlier (and yes, this is in my earlier posts, but because you asked, I will take the time to explain it all in full again) all our medication is regularly checked on arrival from our supplier for their expiry dates. Also, when the medication is dispensed, it's also checked, particularly if it's not something that's ordered regularly. When a pet comes in to see the vet for a consult, its because the animal is unwell. The owner doesn't know why or what's wrong, because unlike people, pets can't explain!! Vet decides that the pet needs a course of antibiotics. Because the weights of pets vary so much, antibiotics and other medications often come in bulk packaging, to then be distributed by the vet. A cat may only need 3 antibiotic tablets to last a 6 days, where as a giant breed dog might need 18 tablets. Vet is not going to give the cat owner the full box of 24 tablets, as this would just be ridiculously expensive and wasteful. It would also be irresponsible of the vet to prescribe more medication than is required, as it may encourage the owner to self medicate. So in this case, there is no need for an expiry date as the vet knows the pills expire in 2 years, yet the course goes for 6 days. I guess what I'm trying to say, is that generally speaking, vets are not going to (or should not) dispense more medication than what is required by the pet at the time. If the pet doesn't get better from the medication, it should be seen again for further work up. In instances where medication is going to be ongoing, such as NSAIDS, then generally a full box/bottle is given, so the batch no. and exp. date will be printed on the box, but also, because the medication is continuing, it will still be used up by the time the medication expires. I really can't think of an instance where any of our vets would dispense any medication that an owner might keep for longer than 12months and then actually suddenly use it again without consulting a vet first. It's important owners seek vet attention first, hence why medication is only dispensed on an 'as needed' basis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Do No Harm Posted August 13, 2009 Author Share Posted August 13, 2009 Do No Harm - can you give me a serious reason why you feel the expiry date and batch number should be written on the label for the clients? In what circumstances do you feel the client needs this information? I'm genuinely asking... Please refer to my previous posts for my answers to your questions. Now may I ask you a question, please? Can you please give consideration to the health, safety and (APVMA) regulatory aspects that are involved and then offer one reason why the Expiry Date and Batch Number information should not be given to purchasers of veterinary medicines? (Please bear in mind that Expiry Date and Batch Number information is required to be on the labels of all worming tablets, all heartworm preventatives, all flea and tick products and all shampoos as well as all commercial pet foods)Thank you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stormie Posted August 13, 2009 Share Posted August 13, 2009 (edited) did I really just type all the above out for nothing? When you go to McDonalds, do you get an expiry date on your burger? No, even though there is an expiry date printed on bun, meat, cheese etc packaging. Probably because you're expected to eat the burger straight away, as thats what was intended. Anyone who kept a burger for 12months and then ate it, would only have themselves to blame. Same with medications. The vet knows the drugs are valid for 12+months when they are prescribed. If an owner self-medicates their pet 18months later with the same pills that are dated 18months prior, they have themselves to blame, for not following the initial course instructions the first time, and also for not seeking vet attention for the problem they are self medicating for. Edited August 13, 2009 by stormie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Do No Harm Posted August 13, 2009 Author Share Posted August 13, 2009 (edited) Do No Harm - can you give me a serious reason why you feel the expiry date and batch number should be written on the label for the clients? In what circumstances do you feel the client needs this information? I'm genuinely asking... I believe the answers are in my earlier posts. May I now ask a question of you, please? Can you explain why the Expiry Date and Batch Number information should not and need not be provided to the person who purchases the medicine to give to their dog, please? Thank you. I never said it should not, but more that I don't think its essential to be there. As I said earlier (and yes, this is in my earlier posts, but because you asked, I will take the time to explain it all in full again) all our medication is regularly checked on arrival from our supplier for their expiry dates. Also, when the medication is dispensed, it's also checked, particularly if it's not something that's ordered regularly. When a pet comes in to see the vet for a consult, its because the animal is unwell. The owner doesn't know why or what's wrong, because unlike people, pets can't explain!! Vet decides that the pet needs a course of antibiotics. Because the weights of pets vary so much, antibiotics and other medications often come in bulk packaging, to then be distributed by the vet. A cat may only need 3 antibiotic tablets to last a 6 days, where as a giant breed dog might need 18 tablets. Vet is not going to give the cat owner the full box of 24 tablets, as this would just be ridiculously expensive and wasteful. It would also be irresponsible of the vet to prescribe more medication than is required, as it may encourage the owner to self medicate. So in this case, there is no need for an expiry date as the vet knows the pills expire in 2 years, yet the course goes for 6 days. I guess what I'm trying to say, is that generally speaking, vets are not going to (or should not) dispense more medication than what is required by the pet at the time. If the pet doesn't get better from the medication, it should be seen again for further work up. In instances where medication is going to be ongoing, such as NSAIDS, then generally a full box/bottle is given, so the batch no. and exp. date will be printed on the box, but also, because the medication is continuing, it will still be used up by the time the medication expires. I really can't think of an instance where any of our vets would dispense any medication that an owner might keep for longer than 12months and then actually suddenly use it again without consulting a vet first. It's important owners seek vet attention first, hence why medication is only dispensed on an 'as needed' basis. It looks like postings got a bit muddled, LOL. Sorry if I did anything to cause that. I thought I hadn't properly posted my reply and possibly we were answering at the same time. These forums are weird but I guess one does get used to pushing the right buttons! The bottom line is that for reasons of proper regulation the Expiry Date and Batch Number information of veterinary medicines should be available. The federal authority which regulates the safety of veterinary medicines relies on end users to provide it with information which it needs for its regulatory role and I do not believe veteriarians or their staff should thwart that process by withholding the information from consumers. From feedback I have had from the AERP they have taken seriously my concerns about this issue, but wheels of change move slowly. So until the system is improved then consumers of veterinary medicines can help themselves by being aware. For more information you could go to the website http://www.apvma.gov.au/qa/vetaerp.shtml and check the fields that need to be completed on the Report form. When my dog suffered a severe adverse reaction to a booster vaccination I only then discovered I did not have the information needed to complete the form. I had to go to the vet for this information - but the vet hadn't recorded it so didn't know (this was two days after the event). The vet's stated reason (or excuse) for not providing that information on the dog's vaccination certificate was "the manufacturer didn't give us sticky label". The vet didn't cover for this by entering the information in the dog's veterinary record and they couldn't determine with any certaintly from the supplies they had in stock. This is a little O/T, but another example of why we need to always check Expiry Dates on products we purhcase for our dogs.... I won't identify on this forum the retailer concerned. However, I was wanting to get some ZiwiPeak treats for my dog. I learned of a sockist nearby and went there in April of this year. The retailer showed me their range of ZiwiPeak and there was plenty of my preferred flavor, but guess what (again)? It was marked with a Best By date of June 2007. It was almost two years out of date! I drew the retailers attention to this detail and he said "We sell plenty of it" Shrugging his shoulders he added "I'll take it home and give it to my dogs". Now if anyone reading this is interested in the risk involved out dated ZiwiPeak to their dog then just check with the manufacturer. I did, and what they told me is that the product would be good for no more than 2 weeks after the Best Before date because there are no artificial preservatives - and yes they intended to follow this up through their Australian distributor. We, as consumers, DO need to be alert to these things! Edited August 13, 2009 by Do No Harm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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