2x2 Stuff

[Staff'n'Toller]

Ok, I'm working on 2x2 with Geordie, he was doing 4 poles really well so they are nearly straight and I've added 2 more poles at 1o'clock/7o'clock.

He will do them 50% of the time, so obviously that's how they need to stay until our success rate gets higher.

However, he's decided that the other options are to enter with the first pole to his right shoulder, thus missing the first two poles, or entering on the left but again missing the first two poles. Soooo this evening I moved the 5th and 6th poles and put them at the end at the 1/7 position, same effect, maybe marginally better. ;)

I have a few theories in my head but wanted to open it up to the floor, one is that I am going to stop using an NRM when he stuffs it, because I've never been quite sure what effect it has on him anyway, the other is that my bridge for correct weaves *good* is not as strong as the clicker so I'm toying with using the clicker temporarily.

2 things: I know SG says NOT to use a clicker so they are driving forward not looking back at you....it's just a thought that came into my head.

When he does it, he does it very well, he is manouvering very well like he understands it. ;)

Shanks. ;)

[JulesP]

I would open up the entrance for him. So offset the first pole. When you add poles, move to somewhere else etc you can open up the entrance again.

[Staff'n'Toller]

Sorry I should have explained that, I did add the 5th and 6th poles at the beginning opened but that's when he started skipping them, so I tried them at the end- still open.

Edited August 10, 2009 by Staff'n'Toller

[kelpiechick]

At only 50% accuracy I would be considering 'backing up' and going back to really work those entries with 2, then 4 poles.

The thing about this method is that once your dog truly understands the entry, they should pretty much never miss it and certainly not 50% of the time. They might still be making errors with skipping poles along the way, but not the with the actual entries. (This is what I found anyway) The fact that you have noticed that he is moving really well when he does it also suggests to me that he is understanding the weaving process but not necessarily the entries, which are the holy grail of 2X2's.

I wouldn't be using a clicker, I use a clicker in agility training but not with the weaves, no matter the method. There are just too many variables at play to ensure that you are actually clicking what you want, whether entries, staying in poles, speed, footwork, etc, so I don't find it practical in this area. (Not to mention detracting from driving down the reinforcement line, as Garrett says)

Can I play 'devil's advocate' and ask a few questions...........

Have you followed the process exactly?

I know I posted an opinion on this topic a while back that appeared to offend some people when I suggested that this is not a method that leaves itself open to 'tweaking' as other methods sometimes do - and I stand by this opinion. You need the DVD, plus the e book plus Susan's website/blog combined to get the most out of this method - I am a massive SG fan but in all honesty I think there were a couple of things that weren't fully explained in the DVD. Anyone running the Greg Derrett system of handling (as she does) would not find that it mattered (has to do with which side of the poles/dog you stand on so as not to flick your dog away toward the poles) but you only have to have a look on youtube to see just how much 2X2 training is being done very badly- so obviously it isn't fully understood by everyone. In the early days of her blog she posted footage that had been sent to her of 2X2 weave training and critiqued it (with permission) This was extremely helpful to me and you can most likely still access it.

Have you kept detailed records not just relating to reinforcement, success rate, etc. but also relating to your position when your dog went into poles, whether you were stationery, moving, etc. This might reveal a pattern to missing the entries.

Have you worked both 2 and 4 poles in different locations before adding more poles? With distractions?

Where is your dog looking when he enters the poles? Can you get some video footage to help you with this. This can be 'eye opening'.

Have you created your reinforcement line strongly enough ? Is there too much value associated with finding the reinforcement line for your dog so that the entry is 'rushed' in order to get to reinforcement line? (eg: dog doesn't fully understand the connection between the two)

Is there a particular reason why you want to teach this method? I'm not sure how experienced you are and whether or not this is the first dog you have trained to weave, but you can certainly still get good results with other methods (as I said, I am playing devil's advocate here - I love the 2X2 method) But other methods still work and will give you more 'support' in many ways as there are still not too many teaching 2X2's in Vic. from what I can gather, only know of a handful of poeple. I taught my youngest kelpie to weave using the channel method, then once he could weave 12 poles accurately and with reasonable speed, I retrained him using 2X2's to work on entries. I am very happy with the results I have got combining these 2 methods and his entries are way better than my Masters kelpie. With my new pup I will go straight to 2X2's when the time comes, but it has taken me a lot of experience in teaching weaving before I was ready to lose the 'safety net' of not having anyone to help me and going it almost alone. It's not the teaching, it's the troubleshooting when things go wrong.

What will you do at Club training when you are presented with channel weaves? (I think you are at ADCV ????) It will be perfectly acceptable with some instructors to explain you are teaching another method and not join in weave training, but it possibly won't be with all of them and you will confuse your dog if you alternate between one method at club and another at home. (especially as the 'theory' of channel weaving and 2X2 is very different) Do you have a plan to deal with this?

Have you asked Susan herself? This is what I would be doing - you can contact her via her blog and she is usually very helpful and generous with her time. Also, are you on the Clean Run discussion list? There were quite a lot of questions relating to troubleshooting 2X2's a few months back from memory and you can go back and access these also.

Anyway, just my 2cents worth and I hope some of it helps. Once he truly 'gets' those entries you will be amazed !

[Staff'n'Toller]

Hi Kelpiechick,

Yes on speaking with another doler we deduce it's that he doesn't totally understand the entries and he needs to do more in the extreme areas of the arc.

I do have the dvd and the booklet, I have been following the book to the letter so far and it has been going well. I'm guessing that now that his accuracy has dropped, with your comments and others I can see that it's the entries that are the problem.

Yes I have weave trained other dogs previously, he has some basic experience in channel weaves but I would like him to understand the whole package and want to be able to send him to the weaves, he is quite good at driving forward. I can send him or I can run beside the weaves and either way he is fine (with 4). We have changed environments and he does weave 4 with distraction.

There could be too much reinforcement value as his intention does seem to shortcut, however Tollers will generally do things a bazillion different ways, it's just in their nature, before I owned one, being a trainer I would have said that was pure BS but you have to work one to understand.

What do you feel is missing out of the DVD? Do you mean that I would find the answers in her blog of critiqued videos?

Yes I'm at ADCV we are only in class 2. Myself and another girl are teaching 2x2 and that seemed to be fine, are you insinuating that some instructors won't be happy that we are teaching another style and will force us to do channel??? We had enough weaves the other night that we broke off into groups and I was able to space them where Geordie is at right now and send him through a couple of times so it worked out ok.

Thanks for your comments it gives me a few things to think about.

[kelpiechick]

Oops - deleted.

Edited August 16, 2009 by kelpiechick

[JulesP]

I did have this problem with Poppy, at about the same stage. If I was standing past the second pole she would cut into the line of weaves without going around the first one. Susan says to not make it easier when they make a mistake but I used to just back up a bit if this happened. She soon worked out that she needed to go into the first entrance.

I think this comes from the wrapping around the poles at the start and them thinking that going around any pole will make you happy.

I think the temptation is to go too fast as Susan seems to go so fast in her videos.

I went backwards a couple of times when it became apparent that I had rushed a stage.