Some Questions Re Boxer With Mct

[RobynH]

I have been reading the threads in this forum for some ideas about how to best look after my 9 year old boxer Chopper who was last week given only a few more months.

He had a lump removed from his scrotum about 15 months ago that turned out to be a grade 2 MCT. When removing the lump the vet found another smaller one in his right groin and removed that too, also a grade 2 MCT.

A few months afterwards I found an egg sized lump in the other groin that appeared to have come up very quickly. We had this needle aspirated and found it to be full of blood. The vet thought a it therefore must have been a haematoma but the site was a very unlikely one for that, being so protected. He thought it was possible that it was also another tumour that, if rapidly growing and trying to establish a blood supply, could have filled with blood and blown up quickly. It was involved in, or in the region of, the lymph node, suggesting a tumour spread but we decided to wait and see if it went down, as a haematoma should. The vet wanted to remove it to determine what it was but I really thought that if it was in the lymph node and therefore a spread, that further surgery would only answer the question about what it was, not necessarily do anything for Chopper either in the short or the long term. If it was a haematoma, it should've just gone down again. While I find it hard not knowing all the facts that extensive testing and/or surgery could provide I feel like I would only be doing these things for my own benefit, not for his.

Some months on, after initially reducing in size a bit, the lump in his groin is again at least the size of an egg and seems to be forming extra nodules on the outside and has a thickened area spreading towards his middle.

Over the last year, his only symptoms of his disease seemed to be markedly increased thirst and persistent vomiting. The vomiting has me very confused because it seems to take him so much by surprise. He does not appear uncomfortable beforehand and it can seem to just hit him out of the blue. It is most often in the morning, usually some 12 hours or more after eating but is definitely his meal from the night before, pretty well undigested. Shouldn't food be digested within about 4 hours as it is with humans or are dogs different? Does the vomiting and the lack of digestion mean that he feels nauseated as well?

The vet put him on cortisone (or prednisone?) a few months back and that is definitely helping to reduce the vomiting but I've also read that it can attack the stomach lining. MCT's are also supposed to attack the stomach lining causing vomiting and blood in the stools so why is this used and why does this seem to be reducing the vomiting?

I have also had him to a more naturapathic vet last week who added anti-oxidants, fish oil, home cooked meals and anti-histamines to his regimen but after checking him out and feeling the tumour she thought it likely that we would only have him for a few more months, 6 if we were lucky. She says that the vomiting is likely to be the key to knowing when the time is right to have him put to sleep but he looks so well (and fat! even fatter now that he's on the steroids) and apart from not being as active or tiring more easily, doesn't seem much different to the dog we had before all this happened.

I get so sad thinking I'm going to lose him but want so much to do what's right for him, not necessarily what's good for me, but am somewhat confused by all the literature and all the options. I don't know how I'm going to know when it's time or just what I should or shouldn't be doing for him. I am trying to make his life as comfortable and happy as possible but am looking for any advice/suggestions helpful to either him or me.

Does anyone have any ideas or struggled with similar questions?

[dogbesotted]

i would discuss with your vet

" Blocking gastric H2 receptors with either cimetidine (5 to 10 mg/kg orally t.i.d. to q.i.d.), ranitidine (1 to 4 mg/kg orally b.i.d. to t.i.d.), or famotidine (0.3 to 0.6 mg/kg orally b.i.d. to t.i.d.) should be implemented to minimize gastroduodenal irritation from excessive parietal cell hydrochloric acid secretion. Occasionally, dogs not responding to H2 blockade may benefit from a proton-pump inhibitor such as omeprazole (0.5 to 1 mg/kg orally once a day). Blocking the H1 receptors with diphenhydramine (1 to 4 mg/kg orally t.i.d.) or hydroxyzine (2.2 mg/kg orally t.i.d.) may be indicated to minimize complications derived from peripheral H1 receptor activation, such as hypotension, bronchospasms, local erythema, swelling, and pain. "

from:

http://veterinarymedicine.dvm360.com/vetme...e/detail/154905

as a combination of antihistamines works best.

also my Lucinda responded very favourably to Vit C by iv. ( mct grade 3)

you may alos investigate using slippery elm and quercetin

boxers are one of the breeds who appear to be highly susceptable to mcts

good luck

Helen

[Staffyluv]

Did you have a look at Ollie's thread - he is MCT grade two, no clear margins and it had already spread to the lymph system.

He was given 12-18 months..... Nearly 4 years ago.

We did chemo and is was also treated holistically...

Good diet is important - get rid of as many carbs as you can, as carbs feed cancer. Look up anti cancer diets for dogs via google, there are heaps of ideas.

As for the vomiting and the tummy upset and the water drinking. Just make sure he has enough water to drink when he wants it, you can't change that at all. Ollie drinks heaps of water and regurgitates the water and sometimes food. He takes maxalon for the nausea and he also takes carafate for the stomach upset. Both of these you get the prescription from the vet and take it to the chemist (chemist sell it much cheaper than vets can)...

Antihistamines are good for MCT dogs as MCT releases histamine and this causes a reaction (often the vomiting) - Ollie takes 2mg polaramine, available without script from the chemist. He has not had a histamine release in ages.

Check out Ollie's thread if you get a chance, this is all in there and so far so good. His remission has been wonderful

[RobynH]

Thank you for that.. Yes I have read Ollie's story and I would love to think our outcome will be as positive. I have all my fingers and toes crossed and live in hope that vets just make fairly general statements about these things based on what they see but that each case is individual and affected by many factors. My Chopper is such a lovely dog, such a gentleman and so well behaved, I couldn't ask for a better companion and the thought of losing him is very hard. 9 years just doesn't seem that long, it has gone by so fast..

Thank you for the suggestions re Maxalon and Carafate, I will ask the vet next visit. My experience is that Maxalon makes them pretty drowsy, do you find that??

As for the carbs, the vet I went to was very good (chiropractor, somewhat alternative in style, provides lots of holistic advice and provides alternative treatments if she believes they provide reasonable alternative eg. herbal anti-inflammatories for my other boxer with back problem) but she recommended a home cooked diet based on 1/3 meat, 1/3 vegies and 1/3 grain (brown rice recommended). Rice must have lots of carbs, do you think just meat and vegies is the go?

Have you heard of cases where an existing (large) tumour has not continued to grow and further spread? Did your Ollie go into remission only once all the lumps were removed? My concern and constant reminder of Chopper's condition is this large tumour in his groin. I don't think that removing it with wide margins is even possible now and given that it came up so quickly I'm not even sure that we would have found it in time to remove it with any confidence back then and I'm pretty sure that the stress of the surgery on his somewhat weakened condition now would not provide enough benefit to make it worth while.

Thank you again for your kind words and suggestions, they are much appreciated.

[Staffyluv]

Hi

The general consensus is that dogs around 7-9 years are most likely to get MCT, that is the age group it is mostly seen it - that is not to say it does not show up in younger or older dogs though.

Yes I agree, vets use generalisations when discussing this sort of thing - they go off the text books an so many just don't go that extra bit to help out IMO - we have been very lucky with our vets (conventional, oncologist and our holistic vet).

Home cooked is the very best you can do for Chopper right now - but personally I would not be adding the rice at all -dogs don't digest grains very well and it is not good for cancer patients (lots of trials have been done on the carbs feeds cancer theory and to be honest, I believe them). In saying that when they are sick (if they catch a tummy bug or something, chicken broth with a bit of rice in it does not hurt.

Cooking all meat is important now too - raw meat can carry bacteria and this needs to be eliminated for cancer dogs.

Ollie generally eats, chicken, turkey, beef and kidney, roo, with veges (carrot, pumpkin, sweet potato, zucchini, broccoli, cauliflower, squash - whatever is in season and cheap). He gets fussy now and will go for ages only eating some veg and then change to another (I just keep trying)... He also had yoghurt and cottage cheese with some flaxseed oil (just a teaspoon) as a treat. He does get dentastix to chew on as a treat as well because he does not get raw bones and I want to keep his teeth healthy. He loves fresh fish like tuna and salmon - expensive I know but I always share mine with him when we have it and it is really good for them too. I used to buy a BBQ chicken each week to hide his tablets in when he was on more of them - just made life easy and he thought he was getting treats all the time. Now he just takes his tablets no worries.

We supplement with vitamin C, fish oil and milk thistle tablets to support his liver as MCT can cause stomach and liver problems.

Ollie has a tumour about the size of a large marble (about 3cm across above the skin - god only knows how much is below, they tend to spread under) and he has had this tumour for about 3 and a half years. His lymph nodes are always swollen but the cancer has been in remission from around 6 months after the chemo based on what the tests say, so around 3 years now - only one remisson yes...

Choppers large tumour may not have to be removed - can they do anything with radiation to target that tumour in particular? Chemo tends to bomb the whole system and is very effective with MCT that is systemic. It is expensive but worth it IMO, but I think they need the holistic approach to help keep them well while they undergo the chemo.

Wishing you all the best with Chopper

[MelM]

Well thats just given me some great ideas for meals. It certainly makes sense.

[Staffyluv]

Just wanted to add that vets are having great success with the new drug Palladia for MCT

[matilda1]

Hi,

I just wanted to add well wishes for the patient

And also add that I think he's doing very well just to be a 9 year old male ENTIRE boxer.

That's a testament to a long, healthy and loving life and you want to be very proud of that

[Dagmar]

I have been reading the threads in this forum for some ideas about how to best look after my 9 year old boxer Chopper who was last week given only a few more months.

He had a lump removed from his scrotum about 15 months ago that turned out to be a grade 2 MCT. When removing the lump the vet found another smaller one in his right groin and removed that too, also a grade 2 MCT.

A few months afterwards I found an egg sized lump in the other groin that appeared to have come up very quickly. We had this needle aspirated and found it to be full of blood. The vet thought a it therefore must have been a haematoma but the site was a very unlikely one for that, being so protected. He thought it was possible that it was also another tumour that, if rapidly growing and trying to establish a blood supply, could have filled with blood and blown up quickly. It was involved in, or in the region of, the lymph node, suggesting a tumour spread but we decided to wait and see if it went down, as a haematoma should. The vet wanted to remove it to determine what it was but I really thought that if it was in the lymph node and therefore a spread, that further surgery would only answer the question about what it was, not necessarily do anything for Chopper either in the short or the long term. If it was a haematoma, it should've just gone down again. While I find it hard not knowing all the facts that extensive testing and/or surgery could provide I feel like I would only be doing these things for my own benefit, not for his.

Some months on, after initially reducing in size a bit, the lump in his groin is again at least the size of an egg and seems to be forming extra nodules on the outside and has a thickened area spreading towards his middle.

Over the last year, his only symptoms of his disease seemed to be markedly increased thirst and persistent vomiting. The vomiting has me very confused because it seems to take him so much by surprise. He does not appear uncomfortable beforehand and it can seem to just hit him out of the blue. It is most often in the morning, usually some 12 hours or more after eating but is definitely his meal from the night before, pretty well undigested. Shouldn't food be digested within about 4 hours as it is with humans or are dogs different? Does the vomiting and the lack of digestion mean that he feels nauseated as well?

The vet put him on cortisone (or prednisone?) a few months back and that is definitely helping to reduce the vomiting but I've also read that it can attack the stomach lining. MCT's are also supposed to attack the stomach lining causing vomiting and blood in the stools so why is this used and why does this seem to be reducing the vomiting?

I have also had him to a more naturapathic vet last week who added anti-oxidants, fish oil, home cooked meals and anti-histamines to his regimen but after checking him out and feeling the tumour she thought it likely that we would only have him for a few more months, 6 if we were lucky. She says that the vomiting is likely to be the key to knowing when the time is right to have him put to sleep but he looks so well (and fat! even fatter now that he's on the steroids) and apart from not being as active or tiring more easily, doesn't seem much different to the dog we had before all this happened.

I get so sad thinking I'm going to lose him but want so much to do what's right for him, not necessarily what's good for me, but am somewhat confused by all the literature and all the options. I don't know how I'm going to know when it's time or just what I should or shouldn't be doing for him. I am trying to make his life as comfortable and happy as possible but am looking for any advice/suggestions helpful to either him or me.

Does anyone have any ideas or struggled with similar questions?

It is a tough one, I have 2 boxers myself and one has mast cell tumours. 3 years ago they gave my girl only 6 more months, if I did not start chemo/radiation immediately. She was 6 years old by then. I refused as I felt the same as you (I would only do it for me, not for her) and thought I will make her life nice and wonderful instead of going through those harsh treatments. Lets face it - chemo kills the immune system, the only thing that can possibly fight the cancer! Of course everyone can decide by himself what he wants to do, for me this was not an option.

I decided to give her the best nutrition, add supplements, she gets sunshine, acupressure, Flower Essences, Kinesiology, exercise and lots of love and fun every day - and she is still alive and a very happy girl!

So please do not get upset when a vet tells you how long your dog will still be around, how can they possibly know?

BTW - Prednisone is chemo as well, but you can wean off.

Dagmar