How Do You Tell Your Dog -

[Agility Dogs]

I agree with LP - my dogs are always working - if I ask for something I expect to (and usually do) get it. We don't distinguish between working and not.

This is what I thought, but out of pure ignorance if nothing else. I am going on what I am being told I 'should' be doing as this is the first time I have done any formal training and I am relying on our trainers to put me on the right track. The trainers are all great but I guess different trainers have different ideas.

Hmmmmm........I think this is all a matter of semantics. The thing is I don't EVER want my dogs trembling with excitement and ready to work - ESPECIALLY on the start line of an agility course. I think they do understand context and will respond differently depending on the situation, but it is important to have a level of consistency in that you expect a response every time.

Bring out a roll or orange bunting and they know exactly what is going on and will do everything with lightning speed.

Ask them casually for something in the back yard and you'll get an in kind response. Either way I still expect a response.

I'm not sure it is ignorant to expect your dog to always listen to you. I understand what you are saying, but some people want that type of control. Personally I have my dogs in potentially high risk situations several times a week and I expect them to be listening to me regardless. (Agility classes should not be, but let's fact it if a new dog decides to go for a run and get in everyone's face they can become that way, a flyball ring is definitely high risk, the list goes on.)

I think to suggest you only train here or only train there or you only expect them to respond under certain conditions is setting them (and you) up for failure becuase inconsistencies creep in to your relationship. eg: If I let my dog blind cross me when we are out walking he is more likely to do it to me in the agility ring. I've been REALLY careful about this over the last 2 or 3 months and have seen a big improvement.

I stick by it - training/working is a 24/7 thing, I'm not saying I am perfect all of the time, but I have come to the conclusion that the more times I let the dogs get away with something the more times they will push again. I'm not talking about letting them become terrorists who are going to rule the world, I'm talking about the difference between really good competition dogs and GREAT competition dogs.

The people with GREAT dogs seem to be the ones who have a set of rules that are enforced ALL of the time regardless of the situaiton, the rest of us are normal(ish) people with dogs that go pretty well most of the time. (let's face it, how many normal people have dogs at competition level!?)

[leopuppy04]

I agree with LP - my dogs are always working - if I ask for something I expect to (and usually do) get it. We don't distinguish between working and not.

This is what I thought, but out of pure ignorance if nothing else. I am going on what I am being told I 'should' be doing as this is the first time I have done any formal training and I am relying on our trainers to put me on the right track. The trainers are all great but I guess different trainers have different ideas.

Hmmmmm........I think this is all a matter of semantics. The thing is I don't EVER want my dogs trembling with excitement and ready to work - ESPECIALLY on the start line of an agility course. I think they do understand context and will respond differently depending on the situation, but it is important to have a level of consistency in that you expect a response every time.

Bring out a roll or orange bunting and they know exactly what is going on and will do everything with lightning speed.

Ask them casually for something in the back yard and you'll get an in kind response. Either way I still expect a response.

I'm not sure it is ignorant to expect your dog to always listen to you. I understand what you are saying, but some people want that type of control. Personally I have my dogs in potentially high risk situations several times a week and I expect them to be listening to me regardless. (Agility classes should not be, but let's fact it if a new dog decides to go for a run and get in everyone's face they can become that way, a flyball ring is definitely high risk, the list goes on.)

I think to suggest you only train here or only train there or you only expect them to respond under certain conditions is setting them (and you) up for failure becuase inconsistencies creep in to your relationship. eg: If I let my dog blind cross me when we are out walking he is more likely to do it to me in the agility ring. I've been REALLY careful about this over the last 2 or 3 months and have seen a big improvement.

I stick by it - training/working is a 24/7 thing, I'm not saying I am perfect all of the time, but I have come to the conclusion that the more times I let the dogs get away with something the more times they will push again. I'm not talking about letting them become terrorists who are going to rule the world, I'm talking about the difference between really good competition dogs and GREAT competition dogs.

The people with GREAT dogs seem to be the ones who have a set of rules that are enforced ALL of the time regardless of the situaiton, the rest of us are normal(ish) people with dogs that go pretty well most of the time. (let's face it, how many normal people have dogs at competition level!?)

Agree 100%.

For example, if my dog plonks itself in a 'sit' infront of me, I usually 'release' them from it even though I didn't ask for it

I like eagerness in training, there's no denying that, but I don't think it should be cue'd in. But then hey (and I think you do this too AD with CK) if my dogs are going to bring me a tug toy from the box, I usually engage in that because I want to encourage interaction with me. I want to encourage that 'drive'. However, if I don't *feel* like it, then if I say 'not now', take the toy away then I don't want them to obsess about it . I also want a dog that when I rip out a tug they jump off their beds and say "yay - PLAY time!". Now that helps in the agility ring when we can have a massive tug on a toy, I drop it next to my feet at the start line, and I know my dog will focus on the course and not on the toy I just dropped

Horses for courses isn't it :D. As for the tug - use it TL! If Tilly loves tugging, use it when you ask for heel. Say "Heel" she jumps in then you go YEE HAR and rip out the tug for a game

Edited August 7, 2009 by leopuppy04

[Agility Dogs]

(and I think you do this too AD with CK) if my dogs are going to bring me a tug toy from the box, I usually engage in that because I want to encourage interaction with me.

Yep, sure do. On the other hand if Xena brings me the toy she is told to put it back in the box until I feel like playing. I DON'T want to encourage any more drive out of that one.

I also want a dog that when I rip out a tug they jump off their beds and say "yay - PLAY time!". Now that helps in the agility ring when we can have a massive tug on a toy, I drop it next to my feet at the start line, and I know my dog will focus on the course and not on the toy I just dropped

Yep, agree again.

Now, having told the world how it should happen I just have to hope the two of them know it is time to work over the weekend!

Have a good weekend everyone.

[leopuppy04]

too right!

I can just see myself going "ok see this is how my dogs tune in" and I'll call Leo over and he'll just roll over on his belly or something equally evil to make it look like I have no idea what I'm doing

[Piri]

i always say ready as well.The judge will ask in the ring "are you ready"and you can say to the judge "Ready" at the same time queuing your dog.

[Wazzat Xolo]

With dogs that I have worked as in "worked" I used a harness for work, AND A VERBAL COMMAND "FIND IT" all other times was check chain and collar etc.

Now I will use check chain and slip lead for walk and basic obedience, and show lead etc for show training incorporating a command for shows as is relevant, I also use the command as I would for toileting, I know its not how most do it but it is how I was taught and it works for me so thats what I choose.

J

I am interested to hear what/how people say/do to let their dogs know its time to work/train and also when its time to stop.

This is something I have not done with Tilly and really should have from the start. Once I start asking her to 'look', she gets it, but I have learnt from my training school that I really should be giving her a defined cue.

Would love to hear examples and/or suggestions on how to start.

Thanks in advance.

[Karelea Aussies]

I agree with LP - my dogs are always working - if I ask for something I expect to (and usually do) get it. We don't distinguish between working and not.

This is what I thought, but out of pure ignorance if nothing else. I am going on what I am being told I 'should' be doing as this is the first time I have done any formal training and I am relying on our trainers to put me on the right track. The trainers are all great but I guess different trainers have different ideas.

Hmmmmm........I think this is all a matter of semantics. The thing is I don't EVER want my dogs trembling with excitement and ready to work - ESPECIALLY on the start line of an agility course. I think they do understand context and will respond differently depending on the situation, but it is important to have a level of consistency in that you expect a response every time.

Bring out a roll or orange bunting and they know exactly what is going on and will do everything with lightning speed.

Ask them casually for something in the back yard and you'll get an in kind response. Either way I still expect a response.

I'm not sure it is ignorant to expect your dog to always listen to you. I understand what you are saying, but some people want that type of control. Personally I have my dogs in potentially high risk situations several times a week and I expect them to be listening to me regardless. (Agility classes should not be, but let's fact it if a new dog decides to go for a run and get in everyone's face they can become that way, a flyball ring is definitely high risk, the list goes on.)

I think to suggest you only train here or only train there or you only expect them to respond under certain conditions is setting them (and you) up for failure becuase inconsistencies creep in to your relationship. eg: If I let my dog blind cross me when we are out walking he is more likely to do it to me in the agility ring. I've been REALLY careful about this over the last 2 or 3 months and have seen a big improvement.

I stick by it - training/working is a 24/7 thing, I'm not saying I am perfect all of the time, but I have come to the conclusion that the more times I let the dogs get away with something the more times they will push again. I'm not talking about letting them become terrorists who are going to rule the world, I'm talking about the difference between really good competition dogs and GREAT competition dogs.

The people with GREAT dogs seem to be the ones who have a set of rules that are enforced ALL of the time regardless of the situaiton, the rest of us are normal(ish) people with dogs that go pretty well most of the time. (let's face it, how many normal people have dogs at competition level!?)

Sorry AD, I am afraid I am a bit lost. I hope you didnt think I was saying that people are ignorant to think their dog should be ready to work all the time, I was referring to my ignorance (or lack of knowlege) that led me to think I didnt need a cue word. I did expext Till to be ready to work all the time but was not sure if I was wrong in thinking this. In fact I didnt even know that people used cue words to 'switch' on their dogs until it was talked about at training and we were told we should be doing it. Tilly can not start agility training for another 3 months at least, so I am working towards a goal I know absolutely nothing about and have no prior exp to go on. I am trying to get her basic training correct so that as we progress we are not making mistakes. I do understand your last couple of paragraphs, makes a lot of sense.

thanks

[Cosmolo]

No cue word here either although i do 'rev the dogs up' before i take them in a class- to be honest its probably more for me than then as i need to make sure i don't drag my feet and find 1 hour classes boring (as my normal training sessions would never be anywhere near that long) or suprise surprise my dogs do too!

I do use a cue word for Cosmo's scent detection though.

Edited August 7, 2009 by Cosmolo

[Karelea Aussies]

Horses for courses isn't it . As for the tug - use it TL! If Tilly loves tugging, use it when you ask for heel. Say "Heel" she jumps in then you go YEE HAR and rip out the tug for a game :p

thanks I will give it a go and see what happens.

[huski]

Hmmmmm........I think this is all a matter of semantics. The thing is I don't EVER want my dogs trembling with excitement and ready to work - ESPECIALLY on the start line of an agility course. I think they do understand context and will respond differently depending on the situation, but it is important to have a level of consistency in that you expect a response every time.

Bring out a roll or orange bunting and they know exactly what is going on and will do everything with lightning speed.

Ask them casually for something in the back yard and you'll get an in kind response. Either way I still expect a response.

I'm not sure it is ignorant to expect your dog to always listen to you. I understand what you are saying, but some people want that type of control. Personally I have my dogs in potentially high risk situations several times a week and I expect them to be listening to me regardless. (Agility classes should not be, but let's fact it if a new dog decides to go for a run and get in everyone's face they can become that way, a flyball ring is definitely high risk, the list goes on.)

I think to suggest you only train here or only train there or you only expect them to respond under certain conditions is setting them (and you) up for failure becuase inconsistencies creep in to your relationship. eg: If I let my dog blind cross me when we are out walking he is more likely to do it to me in the agility ring. I've been REALLY careful about this over the last 2 or 3 months and have seen a big improvement.

I stick by it - training/working is a 24/7 thing, I'm not saying I am perfect all of the time, but I have come to the conclusion that the more times I let the dogs get away with something the more times they will push again. I'm not talking about letting them become terrorists who are going to rule the world, I'm talking about the difference between really good competition dogs and GREAT competition dogs.

The people with GREAT dogs seem to be the ones who have a set of rules that are enforced ALL of the time regardless of the situaiton, the rest of us are normal(ish) people with dogs that go pretty well most of the time. (let's face it, how many normal people have dogs at competition level!?)

Having a cue word to signal to a dog that you are going to reward them in drive, expect them to respond to commands in drive, and use it as a way to start them getting into drive is totally different to having a dog who only 'follows rules' when you've given them that cue word. The purpose of giving the command word is to get the dog to start going into drive, whether or not you have their reward or what revs them up on hand. I can ask Daisy if she's 'ready to work' when I don't have a morsel of food in my hand and she'll still start going into drive.

I know that Seita, Staranais and I aren't talking about having dogs who only respond to commands or follow the rules when we give them a cue word, we're talking about a completely different thing altogether.

I've seen Seita's dog in person and she's pretty amazing when Seita cues her to work in drive. She's done pretty damn well in the obedience ring too Until you've seen the difference between a dog just responding to commands (or rules :p ) and one who is trained to respond to a cue word by going into drive and working in drive it's hard to imagine how huge the difference can be. You may not want your dog quivering with excitement before going into the ring, but if you've built drive properly and taught the dog to have control whilst in drive you have pretty amazing control over the dog when you're working them. Not everyone wants to work in drive and that's fine - but there is a reason why people who do TID give a cue word and its completely different to having "rules" that are only enforced at certain times, or having a dog who only complies to commands when you're training.

Edited August 7, 2009 by huski

[Staranais]

Yeah, what Huski said. ;)

Basically, though, I think we're all doing very similar things. You say: "Bring out a roll or orange bunting and they know exactly what is going on and will do everything with lightning speed. Ask them casually for something in the back yard and you'll get an in kind response. Either way I still expect a response. "

I'm exactly the same, except that I don't want to have to show the dog the roll or bunting to get her to go into drive - I want it so I just have to give her the cue word. The drive cue means "you now have the opportunity to earn the roll/bunting" - so the cue gets exactly the same result as showing her the toy. But using a verbal cue instead is very useful when I want the dog in drive but don't have the toy on me to show her, or when I want complete focus immediately (not after I've dug the toy out of my jacket pocket).

Both ways of triggering the dog into drive work OK. I used to just show my old dog the toy like you do before training and then get him to work for it, so I know that method works, but I found the drive cue added more flexibility & that's why I'm using it for my current puppy.

To the OP, I don't think it matters what method you use to tell your dog it's time to work. But if you want to compete & want to do well, then I think having some way of signalling to your dog that it's time to work is pretty essential, even if that's just putting a special collar on her, or giving her a few bites of the tug before you take her into the ring.

[Agility Dogs]

TL - No need to apologise. I wasn't having a go at you, just the person who made you feel ignorant really.

Huski, I'm not denying the need for a dog to be 'on'. BUT, I really don't think a dog should need to be cued verbally or be hyper to be able to work effectively.

I've seen Seita's dog training and it is awesome to watch. Not criticising that, nor the method.

If you'd seen my dogs work you'd know what I am talking about. They are VERY quiet and NEVER bark in a flyball ring (unless they are sitting out!LOL) and don't sit at the start line of an agility course and paddle their feet. I think both cases are dogs in drive, but not knowing what to do with it. Really I think we agree - for a dog to perform at 100% then it needs to be in drive. We just differ in our opinion of how the dog should get there.

I guess I just expect drive when I ask them to play, I don't feel I should have to cue it. The drive that I build is based on the level of reward they get for a certain activity, not on a cue word. Same, same, different.

T

[BeagleBoys2]

I think what everyone is forgetting is everything we do is a cue of some sort that our dogs pick up on. I've read through all the posts and everyone has indicated something that a dog would pick up as a cue. Whether that be verbal, physical or otherwise.

I don't think anyone who is serious about their expectation of their dogs let them get away with anything. There are things that handlers might identify as acceptable and not acceptable behaviour. And people with great dogs don't set them up to fail and are consistant with their demands on the dog.

It's the consistancy that cues a dog as to what your expectations are.

People new to the training game need to be given every chance they can to get to attain quality work from their dogs. The best way to do that is to take in everything more experienced people have to say and store it away for that rainy day when it happens to be what works for the particular exercise or dog you are working.

[Seita]

Thanks for the comments on my girl guys!

AD - offtopic... who r u? LOL

On the topic of triggering dogs into working mode. It really depends on the dog and style of training I think.

For example in the past I've had one style of training with my dog all the time, there was no difference from general around the house training to the obedience ring training I expected the same level of work regardless. I didn't trigger this training with any form of cue word, maybe a bit of razzzing up to get started with before a trial but ultimately I exected the same work no matter where we were or what we were doing.

But now I use two completely different training methods with the same dog and I need to distinguish those methods for the dog which is why I use a cue for the drive work. I don't want my dog permanently in drive, A) it's not possible and B)I don't always need that level of work. By cueing my drive work I am telling my girl that her drive reward is coming and that I expect a different level of work. The same girl responds accurately and well to a different set of commands when not in drive mode but I don't expect the same level of switched on-ness as my drive work.

I use the drive work in high distraction or dangerous situations where I need/want 150% attention and compliance. But for every day around the house, out for a walk etc, work I use the other commands and I don't cue these I just expect her to do it but she also knows that she doesn't need to go into drive for this. She knows she can be more relaxed and perhaps a little less attentive when I am using these commands and she knows that she isn't going to get her drive reward at this time either. But she still knows that she has to comply and that she will be rewarded in some form.

I don't need my dog to be in drive all the time but I want to be able to control when she is in drive so that I don't have a dog who has 'off' days. You know those people who trial and they have those brilliant brilliant days and then there are days where their dogs are flat or not really focussed. I'm not talking about blowing an exercise here I'm talking about the way the dog responds to the handler and how that varies. My old girl used to be like this, if she was really into it and focussed we would have absolutely ripper days, but if she was flat, didn't feel like it or I couldn't get her focussed she would be terrible. I want to control my dog's drive so that when I cue it I get it. I don't want semi-compliance, I don't want a dog that "might" switch on for me. I want a dog that when I ask her to go into drive she damn well does!!! That is why I cue her work, she has been conditioned to know that her super duper totally awesome reward will ALWAYS appear when I have told her to go into drive. And she has been taught that she must go into drive on that command.

Without my cue I would have no way to tell my dog what I want, what is coming or be able to control when I want her in drive and when I don't.

Sorry for the big post!

[Vickie]

I think my dogs use the situation to determine what level of drive they go into.

In training at home & for tricks etc if I want to rev them up, I use the word ready...but I think it is redundant for training elsewhere or at trials, just the sight of agility equipment is enough to tell them which mode they are in. I tend not to rev them up too much, they are already close to over the top. Trim especially can get very worked up, she often trembles violently at the startline in anticipation so I tend to try to keep her calm. Likewise on sheep, I certainly don't want to hype them up as that would be counter productive to the way I want them working and their attitude is totally different to that of agility training anyway.

For basic commands at home, I don't want the intensity that other activities bring. I want compliance, nothing more & nothing less.

[huski]

On the topic of triggering dogs into working mode. It really depends on the dog and style of training I think.

For example in the past I've had one style of training with my dog all the time, there was no difference from general around the house training to the obedience ring training I expected the same level of work regardless. I didn't trigger this training with any form of cue word, maybe a bit of razzzing up to get started with before a trial but ultimately I exected the same work no matter where we were or what we were doing.

But now I use two completely different training methods with the same dog and I need to distinguish those methods for the dog which is why I use a cue for the drive work. I don't want my dog permanently in drive, A) it's not possible and B)I don't always need that level of work. By cueing my drive work I am telling my girl that her drive reward is coming and that I expect a different level of work. The same girl responds accurately and well to a different set of commands when not in drive mode but I don't expect the same level of switched on-ness as my drive work.

I use the drive work in high distraction or dangerous situations where I need/want 150% attention and compliance. But for every day around the house, out for a walk etc, work I use the other commands and I don't cue these I just expect her to do it but she also knows that she doesn't need to go into drive for this. She knows she can be more relaxed and perhaps a little less attentive when I am using these commands and she knows that she isn't going to get her drive reward at this time either. But she still knows that she has to comply and that she will be rewarded in some form.

I don't need my dog to be in drive all the time but I want to be able to control when she is in drive so that I don't have a dog who has 'off' days. You know those people who trial and they have those brilliant brilliant days and then there are days where their dogs are flat or not really focussed. I'm not talking about blowing an exercise here I'm talking about the way the dog responds to the handler and how that varies. My old girl used to be like this, if she was really into it and focussed we would have absolutely ripper days, but if she was flat, didn't feel like it or I couldn't get her focussed she would be terrible. I want to control my dog's drive so that when I cue it I get it. I don't want semi-compliance, I don't want a dog that "might" switch on for me. I want a dog that when I ask her to go into drive she damn well does!!! That is why I cue her work, she has been conditioned to know that her super duper totally awesome reward will ALWAYS appear when I have told her to go into drive. And she has been taught that she must go into drive on that command.

Without my cue I would have no way to tell my dog what I want, what is coming or be able to control when I want her in drive and when I don't.

Sorry for the big post!

That is what I was trying to get at, but you said it way better than me

[Staranais]

I use the drive work in high distraction or dangerous situations where I need/want 150% attention and compliance. But for every day around the house, out for a walk etc, work I use the other commands and I don't cue these I just expect her to do it but she also knows that she doesn't need to go into drive for this. She knows she can be more relaxed and perhaps a little less attentive when I am using these commands and she knows that she isn't going to get her drive reward at this time either. But she still knows that she has to comply and that she will be rewarded in some form.

I think it's kind of like having a special emergency recall cue that always get a super duper reward. Sure, you could just have one recall command and give the super duper reward every single time you recalled your dog, but do you really want to? I don't want to have to tug with my girl for 5 minutes every time I call her over for something in the house, and I also don't want to devalue the super duper reward by making it available twenty times a day. So I have an outside recall which we practice at the park with an ultra cool drive reward, and I just use a casual command at other times. When I train for trialling, I'll introduce a third recall which means to run over to a formal sit in front.

Perhaps I'm just complicated.

Beagleboys is right though, I think, everyone here does cue their dogs to work. The only difference is whether the dog has just picked up the routine by itself, or whether a deliberate cue was taught to tell the dog what kind of work was coming.

[ness]

Question Seita - what if you gave a drive command and the dog failed - dogs are dogs and they are certainly far from being robots. I don't believe you can totally remove this and you will still get the occasional odd off day for whatever reason when you trial.

Ooops I think I probably answered my own question just re-read and think there is an element of compulsion as you say she has been made to go into drive if she has been given the word and hasn't.

I haven't done any training in drive but how do you prevent the dog from giving you the same level of response out of drive to a normal command. I would classify my youngster as pretty driven and her level of desire extremely high for whatever item I have. It doesn't matter if she has access to it all day every day I whip out whatever I want to reward her with and the enthusiasm is as high as it would be if I bought out a special toy. I know this as I do have special toys which she only gets for training however I can get the same level of response to grabbing whatever toy is laying around in the yard.

Surely some of these high drive dogs must be the same - what is then so special about having the 1 ultimate reward which for mine could be anything. Or have I missed something fundamental.

Edited August 10, 2009 by ness

[Staranais]

I'm not Seita, but I can give you my answer for what it's worth. I trained my old dog in drive, and am just starting with the new one.

If I gave the cue and my dog didn't go into drive? Either I haven't paired the cue solidly enough to the drive game (quite possible in a young dog like mine), or the dog just isn't that enthused about going into drive for some reason. I don't think you can make a dog go into prey drive through compulsion. If the dog doesn't go into drive on the cue then it's more a matter of sorting out where you've gone wrong, and fixing it for the future. Which I would do in the first case with more pairing of the drive cue to the game until the dog really gets what the cue means, or in the second case by building the drive up with frustration until the dog will eagerly go into drive any where, any time.

How do you prevent a dog giving you the same level of response to a normal command? Do you mean something like, what if I ask for a casual down and my dog snaps to attention and gives me 100% focus as if we're working in drive? I don't really care if she does, but I just don't reward her in drive for it, so she tends not to.

What is so special about having one ultimate reward? I don't really have one toy that is the ultimate reward. I think you're right - playing with you should be the best reward, no matter which toy is used. So my dog can have chew toys any old time she likes, but she only gets to tug with me when she's earned it. That's what she's working for, when she's working in drive. Not for the tug toy I produce, but for the opportunity to tug with me.

[ness]

Thanks sorry the question was open to anybody didn't specifically need Seita to answer it. It actually occurred to me its really not any different to not for instance asking your dog to heel anywhere other than when training or trialling. Also a lot of the exercises I am working are specific to the obedience ring. Not like you ask your dog for a box sendaway or a directed jump or directed retrieve exercise on an everyday basis outside of trialling. I suppose the mucky ones are recalls (but I have always had a separate command).

Now back to the original topic I suspect there are a number who rely on a body posture to also help tell the dog when they are working specifically when they are going into the ring. Not many people walk the same in real life as they do in the ring. So even those who haven't established a verbal cue system for the dog are still in effect cueing the dog into working.

Edited August 10, 2009 by ness