Qualifed Dog Trainer Vs Dog Trainer

[Cosmolo]

My dogs are always at classes because most often i have needed them earlier in the day to assist me with clients (socialisation or working with reactive/ aggressive dogs) All 4 will hold a drop stay at a distance for the whole class even though they are at different levels in their other obedience but only two are used for certain demos because they are the 'finished product'.

[Erny]

Personally Erny, if I were a trainer with a dog that's a work in progress, I'd think twice before having on the training ground during classes. One pet hate of mine is trainers that repeatedly demo on their own dogs ad nauseum. I'm not interested in seeing what they can do with their dogs beyond a demonstration of the behaviour as a finished product. I'm there to get help with how to teach it to my dog.

Personally I don't have my dogs with me when I train others.

You misunderstand me PF. In all the years I've worked taking classes I've not brought my own dog with me. (A) Because I prefer to place my absolute full attention to the members of the class and I know that no matter how hard I try, half my mind will be on my own dog. (B) Because my previous girl was not of the right temperament - too nervy so she'd stress the while. And © because my current boy isn't up to it.

When I typed my post (above) I was imagining a client or potential client observing me (not in class environment) walking with my dog and basing their assessment of what they see on whether I was a good trainer or not.

I sometimes take my boy with me when I give a lesson or class at PK9's training grounds. He stays in the car for the lesson duration and when that's done I'll bring him out to work him and also to give him a run (*sigh* .... wish I had more space where I live) so it is fully possible that I could be 'judged' by what he's doing as to how good I am. I've been using drive as my predominant training method. RR's often don't have the strong and persistent prey drive for the tug as other breeds can and do, so I really concentrated on building the drive he did have. In the course of his excitement in early training, he would jump up. I didn't encourage it, but I didn't stop to admonish him for it either, preferring at the time to preserve the drive that I had managed to enhance. So this reflects back to someone here saying "if they saw the trainer's dog jump up at them ...".

Edited August 10, 2009 by Erny

[poodlefan]

I suppose we all have different things we tolerate (and don't). Personally I hate being jumped on by other people's dogs if I don't know them.

As a better example, if I want my dog to walk on a loose lead, I'll be looking for a trainer who can successfully teach that to their dogs.

Edited August 10, 2009 by poodlefan

[Erny]

I suppose we all have different things we tolerate (and don't). Personally I hate being jumped on by other people's dogs if I don't know them.

Again - I think you've misunderstood. I don't permit my boy to jump on others. And I do not openly invite or encourage him to jump on me either. But it was one behaviour that I compromised on for the sake of another. The jumping won't last forever. But I hope the latter (ie drive) does.

As a better example, if I want my dog to walk on a loose lead, I'll be looking for a trainer who can successfully teach that to their dogs.

I agree. But do you mean that if you saw a trainer with a dog who pulled, you'd assume they couldn't successfully teach LLW to their dog?

Edited August 10, 2009 by Erny

[poodlefan]

I suppose we all have different things we tolerate (and don't). Personally I hate being jumped on by other people's dogs if I don't know them.

Again - I think you've misunderstood. I don't permit my boy to jump on others. And I do not openly invite or encourage him to jump on me either. But it was one behaviour that I compromised on for the sake of another. The jumping won't last forever. But I hope the latter (ie drive) does.

As a better example, if I want my dog to walk on a loose lead, I'll be looking for a trainer who can successfully teach that to their dogs.

I agree. But do you mean that if you saw a trainer with a dog who pulled, you'd assume they couldn't successfully teach LLW to their dog?

If I saw it often enough? Yes. If I saw them allowing their new pup to do it? Yes. Maybe I'd be wrong. But sometimes not.

I do prefer a trainer who can model the goals I'm seeking to achieve, regardless of the field of education.

[Erny]

A friend of mine left her dog with me to mind whilst she was away for a week or two. Her dog had cruciate surgery and was in the "exercise for strength/support" stage. The dog could walk quite well on it so the surgery was not obvious, but part of the rehabilitation and building of strength exercise to protect the leg was for the dog to pull into a harness on its walks.

Hhhhmmm .... hope none of my prospective clients saw me doing that .. .

Edited August 10, 2009 by Erny

[SkySoaringMagpie]

Too true. The most highly qualified and experienced trainer I know does not have fabulous people skills, unfortunately. I'm yet to personally meet a trainer that does. I can hack being patronised and spoken down to and in all honesty I've come to expect it from trainers, but I know a lot of people that can't handle it and I don't blame them. I am currently wondering if I can be bothered trying one more time with this new puppy we are getting to find a trainer that won't insist I do things I don't want to do. I would honestly be happy if I could expect just that much. If I could get through four classes without having a painfully inquisitorial 'discussion' about why my wish to do things marginally different is a recipe for failure, I swear I would be happy! Last time it all started with not wanting to put an anti-pull harness on my puppy that just didn't pull in the first place. Is that wildly unreasonable? How hard is it to work with what people feel comfortable doing even if they don't want to do exactly what you as a trainer wants to do?

I have just left or swapped classes when I realised it wasn't going to work - perhaps you don't have that luxury, but I went to a first week and never went back when an instructor tried to insist we change all our cues to the ones he uses. Life is too short.

[SkySoaringMagpie]

I do agree the trainer has to fit the job, though. I saw trainers when I still had my last dog who labelled him either "fear aggressive" or "dominant" when he was nothing of the sort - I think it was simply because they had had some success dealing with fearful or pushy dogs and thought they could solve any aggression by treating it the same way. They would probably have been really good trainers at fixing fear aggressive or dominant dogs, since that's where their experience seemed to lie, but they weren't the right trainers to help us. So even a "qualified" trainer might not be qualified for all types of behavioural or training work.

This is a real risk I think, if you have a hammer sometimes everything can look like a nail.

It's one reason why I'm not too keen on labeling dogs and more keen on describing and dealing with behaviour. If I were looking for a private consult trainer, I would be testing quietly to see if that person were going to impose Brand X solution without really understanding the problem and/or goal. Corvus' example of someone requiring a halti without the dog showing signs of pulling is a good example.

[Winterpaws]

To further cloud the waters- what makes a qualified behaviourist? Im not talking about a vet behaviourist.

Someone who has at least done some study and has qualifications - be they Australian or overseas

One of my pet peeves is seeing people reccommend dog trainers to people with dogs who have serious issues and need a behaviorist. There's a particular person on here who is constantly doing it because of personal reasons

At the end of the day, the dogs suffer because of it....

Some issues are beyond a dog trainer, you need to go that extra step and see someone who has the experience and knowledge of behaviour

Oh and my favourite was someone who kept telling me she was a behaviorist, because she had watched Cesar Milan DVD's and read a few books, if it wasn't so damn scary it would be laughable

[Staranais]

Oh and my favourite was someone who kept telling me she was a behaviorist, because she had watched Cesar Milan DVD's and read a few books, if it wasn't so damn scary it would be laughable

I think I employed someone like that once.

I don't necessarily expect a dog trainer or behaviourist to be officially qualified, but if I mention something like "shaping" or "negative punishment" or "prey drive" and see a blank look like I did with that lady, I just know I'm not onto a winner.

Another warning sign to me is a trainer or behaviourist that completely slates everyone else's methods. I've had positive trainers do this about things like correction collars ("inhumane and never works"), and more traditional trainers do this about the clicker or food rewards ("ridiculous and never works"). To me, that's a huge warning sign that the trainer only has one solution in their toolbox and tries to make all dogs conform to it.

[Cosmolo]

Staranais I think in any part of life, someone who has to ridicule another to sell themselves or their product is way off the mark.

[poodlefan]

Another warning sign to me is a trainer or behaviourist that completely slates everyone else's methods. I've had positive trainers do this about things like correction collars ("inhumane and never works"), and more traditional trainers do this about the clicker or food rewards ("ridiculous and never works"). To me, that's a huge warning sign that the trainer only has one solution in their toolbox and tries to make all dogs conform to it.

Agree. Any trainer who thinks there's only one right way (theirs) and insists on running down others is not one I'd see.

That's what put me off Pat Parelli, the natural horsemanship guy.

[MonElite]

I do prefer a trainer who can model the goals I'm seeking to achieve, regardless of the field of education.

I do too.

I often recommend a particular person here. As one of many examples of his success with dogs, this person got a very dog agressive dog and rehabilitated it, trained it to perfection too. To me this speaks results. I also train with this person about once a week so I see a lot of his work with me and others. So for "personal reasons" I recomend this guy, I like what he does and I trully belive he can help other people.

My peeve is when people that dont know a trainer/behaviourist, never met the person nor seen their work pass judgment on their work.

Edited August 11, 2009 by MonElite

[corvus]

All very interesting. I am thinking it's rather like my recent depressing searches for a good hairdresser. There are a hell of a lot of people out there with hairdressing qualifications that can cut hair passably well, but there aren't so many really good hairdressers that can join the dots between a good haircut or hairstyle and what will look particularly good on you. And I don't know about anyone else, but I wouldn't trust a hairdresser with no qualifications around my hair unless they had been thoroughly recommended and I'd seen what great talent they had for myself. Does that make sense? I am learning from my mistakes and one day maybe I'll know what questions to ask a trainer before I sign up. In the meantime, I think PF would be thoroughly amazed at the things I do in a class to avoid causing a scene, but there are times I have to put my foot down because I am worried it might have a detrimental effect on my dog.

I would say, though, that none of the trainers I've ever met in person have considered telling someone they need to see a behaviourist. I know because it was my mum that should have been told and she wasn't. Not even with the last dog she took to training classes who looked like he was going to bite the trainer one day when she took the leash from my mother. Okay, so the trainer was catching on by then that something was not right, but it was way too late by then. Mum should have been advised to get a behaviourist with that dog when he was at puppy preschool. And from there he went to training and it wasn't until the very end of the CGC course that the trainer began to realise there was something terribly wrong.

[Kavik]

One person who has helped me a lot with agility training I don't think has formal qualifications (I've never asked ). Her dogs are very successful competitively and the way she showed me weave pole entries and how to begin seesaw training made sense and for the first time I have a dog that can weave and is not scared of the seesaw Sometimes for specialised training it is more important to have someone who is good at that area and understands the ins and outs of it, and can help with specifics, regardless of whether they have qualifications or not.

[WoofnHoof]

That's what put me off Pat Parelli, the natural horsemanship guy.

That's the only thing?!? He's certainly hasn't produced any riders of note, and having the O'Connors on the payroll doesn't count :D

[alpha bet]

am currently wondering if I can be bothered trying one more time with this new puppy we are getting to find a trainer that won't insist I do things I don't want to do. I would honestly be happy if I could expect just that much. If I could get through four classes without having a painfully inquisitorial 'discussion' about why my wish to do things marginally different is a recipe for failure, I swear I would be happy!

Corvus, shame you live so far away, would love to take up the challenge and see if you would be happy in my class.

Don't give up, there is always hope the next trainer you meet might be the one....

[Erny]

If I could get through four classes without having a painfully inquisitorial 'discussion' about why my wish to do things marginally different is a recipe for failure, I swear I would be happy! Last time it all started with not wanting to put an anti-pull harness on my puppy that just didn't pull in the first place. Is that wildly unreasonable? How hard is it to work with what people feel comfortable doing even if they don't want to do exactly what you as a trainer wants to do?

When you join the school/s that you do, do you make it clear to them that you are joining not for their instruction but so that you may simply work your dog in your own way (a way that needs to not be destructive or distracting to the remainder of the class, of course).

Instructors (rightly) assume that you have joined for their assistance. Schools, by their very nature, generally will have a particular way or method of instruction/teaching and unless you have previously informed them that you don't wish for their tuition and recommendations to methodology, they can only think that you do. If you tell them up front that you're working things the way you want to for your own reasons then they will at least have a heads up to leave you alone. In my experience, Clubs will leave you to it if they can see that the method/s you use does not interrupt the running of the class; that the method/s you use is serving the purpose of the training that you're doing; and that you have good control over your dog. So if you haven't before, perhaps let them know the purpose of your joining their school.

ETA: I agree with not insisting on a change of training tools/management devices if it proves that the dog does not require them.

Edited August 13, 2009 by Erny

[Vickie]

Coming in late here...

to me a qualified trainer is someone who has studied, done a course and passed an assessment, written & practical, to say they are qualified.

Saying that, I do not believe qualifications are essential & (as they stand now) are often not what I would be looking for in a dog trainer.

I see lots of excellent trainers around with no qualifications, some have a common sense knack & most have a lot of experience. To me the biggest problem is lack of honesty about experience & qualifications. I know trainers with formal qualifications who are willing to take on cases that they do not have the experience to deal with, generally ending in disaster.

Most trainers have an area that they are very good at, not many can proficiently instruct in all areas and I think being honest about this is crucial.

I am a good agility instructor, probably a better instructor than I am handler. When I take a lesson form someone else, I like to be pushed and as an instructor, I tend to suit people who like to be pushed by me. In other areas, I am generally proficient at handling high drive, hyper, defiant, out of control dogs and improving general manners. I am also generally able to increase motivation in low drive dogs. I am totally uncomfortable & inexperienced with dogs showing human or dog aggression. I don't have teh knowledge or the nerve for it and when I have been asked to help people with aggressive dogs, my answer is always no. It would be dangerous for me to try, both for me, the owner & the dog.

I think when anyone is looking for a dog trainer, they need to assess experience of that trainer but also ensure that their method of teaching is suitable for the person's method of learning. If the 2 don't match it can be very difficult.

Saying that there are some people who are never going to find someone that suits them, because despite always having issues, they still believe they know more than anyone can teach them. They continue to ask questions and continue to refute or argue with every solution that is presented to them.

Edited August 14, 2009 by Vickie