Keeps Dropping In Sit Stays!

[RubyStar]

And here I was thinking it was a Lazy Labrador problem

If I'm doing stays in a class situation, I do sit stays both times so while all the others are in their down stay, my girls get put back into a sit stay after I've moved them off the position/praised/rewarded for the first sit stay. But they're lazy buggers, still doing it on and off *sigh* I rarely practice the down stays for this reason.

I vote for the stays to be abolished, too And the heelwork

[Joan of Arc]

We are only new at obedience and only have two passes at CCD but hoping for our third this weekend. At training we were doing heaps of sit stays and then drop stays and I am lucky that my lab girl is sound on both. However we are getting some extra training one night a week from a couple of the senior triallers in our club and both of them stated that they never never ever have taught a dog to sit and then drop from the sit.

Its their belief that this can encourage the dropping from the sit stay.

So we do our sit stays and then we walk off the mark - return and drop and stay.

For those dogs that the sit stay was a problem for it seems to have helped.

[Tay.]

No all the problems about the sit stays. Have lost lots of passes cause of that and especially one very special pass that my border collie got and that was 200 and yep she lay down

When I train I dont do a lot of drop stays only the sit stays and reward. I always tell my dogs to sit for sit stay and drop for drop stay. Xena my coolie hasnt really stuffed any stays up apart from doing dead dog in drop stays so we loose more points :p my border collie has just started now for the last 18 months breaking her sit stays but we havent done any open in trials practically all year and my young coolie decided to do something very different and stand up.

Dont know if when you are trialing and your dog has broken the sit stay do you do the drop stay. I dont I pull my dogs out and do another sit stay straight away and than reward. Your actually praising the dog to break position. Another thing I do is praise the dog in position and at training I feed in the position telling my dog what a good sit stay that she has done. I have also seen people after they have done the sit stay pat the dog and than drop the dog in position this encourages dogs to break the sit stay as they are anticipating the drop stay

The other thing it can be habit forming nothing happens in the ring good I can do it that is why I gave Inka a break. Also check to see if the dog is ok I had Inka checked up and found something with the neck and since treatment she did sit and stay (Playing tug with the younger pup and swinging her dont do that anymore)

Also it does seem to be a BC problem ;)

Good Luck with your dog

Yeah I do they same. If she drops in a sit stay I pull her out and do one by herself. And of course she sits perfectly the whole time then!

[xena98]

Yep, typical aint it. Why than can they not do it when you have paid your money and that there is a rope around arghhhhhhh

[Ptolomy]

No all the problems about the sit stays. Have lost lots of passes cause of that and especially one very special pass that my border collie got and that was 200 and yep she lay down :D

When I train I dont do a lot of drop stays only the sit stays and reward. I always tell my dogs to sit for sit stay and drop for drop stay. Xena my coolie hasnt really stuffed any stays up apart from doing dead dog in drop stays so we loose more points my border collie has just started now for the last 18 months breaking her sit stays but we havent done any open in trials practically all year and my young coolie decided to do something very different and stand up.

Dont know if when you are trialing and your dog has broken the sit stay do you do the drop stay. I dont I pull my dogs out and do another sit stay straight away and than reward. Your actually praising the dog to break position. Another thing I do is praise the dog in position and at training I feed in the position telling my dog what a good sit stay that she has done. I have also seen people after they have done the sit stay pat the dog and than drop the dog in position this encourages dogs to break the sit stay as they are anticipating the drop stay

The other thing it can be habit forming nothing happens in the ring good I can do it that is why I gave Inka a break. Also check to see if the dog is ok I had Inka checked up and found something with the neck and since treatment she did sit and stay (Playing tug with the younger pup and swinging her dont do that anymore)

Also it does seem to be a BC problem

Good Luck with your dog

Yeah I do they same. If she drops in a sit stay I pull her out and do one by herself. And of course she sits perfectly the whole time then!

Hmm going to throw something your way to think about - like you if the dog drops during the sit stay I grab my lead take the dog out of the ring and we do another one and of course - we don't have a problem and then I reward her.

Are we now setting up a pattern of behaviour where it is Ok for them to drop the first time - because we will give them an opportunity to do it again, get it right and then they get rewarded.

I have now started putting them back in the car if they drop - too bad so sad. I will redo the sit stay later in the day, or not at all that day.

Edited August 3, 2009 by Ptolomy

[JulesP]

Not sure that they have that much reasoning Ptolomy. Maybe a stay in the ring has less value though as they don't get rewarded in there. Stay outside of nasty ring=reward.

I think one of the trickiest thing about stays is the training with other dogs. I always worry about stuffing up the other dogs by doing what I need to with mine. The other dogs are usually novice dogs too. Even me standing closer seems to worry some of them. Then you don't want to stuff up the UD level dogs either! Almost need to practice with retired dogs, lol.

[Natsu chan]

I don't know I think dogs break stays for all sorts of reasons.

DSO, you said your dog was sleepy when you go in for stays right? Well why not try doing some heel work for a few minutes before you go back in the ring? Mine rarely breaks stays when she breaks sit stays she's been either sore or tired. I find if I wake her up and get her back in working mode before we do stays it just doesn't happen. Most of the time when we're training we don't do things the way we might when we're trialling. If you're in a big class at a trial and first in you could easily be waiting a few hours between your ring work and the stays something that doesn't usually happen in training.

Stays are about proofing, a lot of people don't do enough work proofing their stays. My girl is anxious about thunder but we got our CCD on a day when we had to do stays with thunder rolling. I've trained stays in storms, with people doing idiot things in cars near by, with dogs running loose around her with people walking all over her, with balls flying around and anything else I could think of. You get the idea, I'm a bit obsessive about proofing......it has to be said.

I reward mine in the ring after a stay if she's good she gets a cuddle then we set up for the next one if she breaks she's told to get back in to position but is other wise ignored. You can issue praise between exercises, you just can't use toys or food.

Stays can be frustrating though but oh so character building! Good luck, and be sure to let us know how you go.

[leopuppy04]

story of my life - breaking stays

I do as Ptolomy does - if the dog breaks the stays -oops back into the car, try again another day

One thing I also noticed is that in practice people will actually completely 'release' their dogs from a sit stay (so dog can stand up etc) but not in a trial because they are worried the dog will move around a bit too much, so after the 'stay' they will automatically ask the dog to 'drop' (from a seated position).

I found that this was a *key* reasong my dog was dropping as they were pre-empting the 'down'. I get her up in between stays, she turns around and then we do the down stay.

we still have the occasional stay problem (for other reasons) but it has helped heaps

Have you done any resistance training?

[Seita]

I too move my dog from it's position after a stay. I come back after the sit stay, praise her in position and then heel forward about turn and wait behind the marker for the judge to tell us to take up position for the drop stay. I also don't ask my dog to sit while waiting to take up position for the sit stay, have her standing at my side until the judge asks us to take up position, and I do the same before the drop stay. At this stage my girl has never blown a sit stay (it's the drop stay that we have the occaisional problem with ) so I don't know what I would do but I think I would withdraw and put her away and then try again later.

[JulesP]

Interesting. I always used to move the dog and do a decent amount of praising. They have sort of been encouraging us not to move lately. Will go back to moving her.

[Rivsky]

Hmm going to throw something your way to think about - like you if the dog drops during the sit stay I grab my lead take the dog out of the ring and we do another one and of course - we don't have a problem and then I reward her.

Are we now setting up a pattern of behaviour where it is Ok for them to drop the first time - because we will give them an opportunity to do it again, get it right and then they get rewarded.

I have now started putting them back in the car if they drop - too bad so sad. I will redo the sit stay later in the day, or not at all that day.

I would agree with this.

The first time River mucked up his sit stay he was taken out of the ring and asked to do one afterwards which he had no problem at all with. The second time he dropped in the sit stay he was taken out of the ring and that was it. He was seriously miffed at not being given a second chance and the next trial (and all others aftewards) he has managed to hold his sit stay with no problems at all so I think Ptolomy's theory could have something in it for sure.

Mind you I still regularly get sucked into giving him second and even third chances way too often

[ness]

Er yep I would agree with that Rivsky . Although I am guilty of it as well and I think most people are .

As Sue guru said when she was over - people find rewarding their dogs reinforcing for them as well as being reinforcing for the dog.

Although I am not completely sure the dog would have entirely linked the non-performance of the sit stay in the ring with not having got a reward - well ok maybe that part is alright but its the next bit I am not sure of and that is the dog then didn't break a stay in the ring after.

Edited August 4, 2009 by ness

[JulesP]

I must be a mean trainer. I don't tend to greatly reward 'second chances'. I give minimum praise, then repeat the exercise again and give more praise for that effort. I might have a gap between the second and third goes.

[Brad Griggs]

I must be a mean trainer. I don't tend to greatly reward 'second chances'. I give minimum praise, then repeat the exercise again and give more praise for that effort. I might have a gap between the second and third goes.

I honestly think that answer from Jules was great, as were a couple of others. Here are some other tips off the top of my head...apologies if anybody else has covered this ground, or if the post is considered too long.

I will go out on a limb and put $10 on the fact that the dog was probably trained to drop from a seated position, and that dropping from a sit is a common part of your training routine. A major contingency of training the drop in this fashion is the exact problem that you are now encountering.

If you still seek a solution for this problem I would recommend the following modifications to your current training regime:

1- NO MORE DROPS FROM A SIT. At least for about a month or so. About a week or so from the trial introduce them again, but in a totally random fashion that does not allow the dog to ascertain a pattern in any way.

2- PROOF THE DROP AND THE SIT SEPARATELY, followed by a release upon success. Dont rush it, dont try and take big leaps, reward the inch by inch progresses.

3- IMPLY THE STAY COMMAND WITH THE SIT AND DROP COMMANDS. The dog will not forget what the stay command means, and the performance will be stronger in the sit and drop positions.

4- When you do go back to using the stay command in training be sure to proof the stay command in other positions. Remind yourself that the CONCEPT you are trying to teach your dog is that stay means 'maintain your current position and location, to the exlusion of any other behaviours, until such time as I give you a different command, or I tell you that your stay is finished'.

5- Try using a triangular box or frame under the dogs front legs for about 100-200 repetitions to block the dropping behaviour from happening.

6- When training the sit or the drop, if you are using food, be sure to return to the dog to treat.

7- If you are comfortable using compulsion the proofing phase that you are in with your dog now would be an appropriate time to apply positive punishment.

8- Check if the problem behaviour is environmentally specific by testing the dog. Do this by using the same routine in a very different environment but without too much distraction.

There are a million of possibilities, but 99% of the time the first 3 or 4 ideas I have shared fixes the issue.

Hope this helps you out!

Brad

[Brad Griggs]

By the way, be sure to refrain anything that the dog may view as REINFORCEMENT, including a smile, kind look or nice voice when the dog makes the mistake.

Also consider using markers for the behaviour so that the dog can make the connection to the undesirable behaviour in a contiguous fashion, and therefore has a chance to find a way around the lack of success.

Edited August 9, 2009 by Brad Griggs

[Tay.]

Just wanted to say thanks for everyones advice. I'll post an update on how her stays are at the trial sunday

I've learnt so much from this thread thanks again.

Taylah

[Tay.]

arghhh.. she dropped today in stays. At least this time we weren't sitting on a pass . She basically hugged the judge in SFE

Fun day though

[Brad Griggs]

I would suggest taking the time to research the topic, sitting down and writing out a plan to address the issue, and implementing it before the breaking of the drop becomes a learnt behaviour. If you are not using a release command for you skills then I can tell you that this can happen very quiclkly, and if it becomes classically conditioned it becomes a seriously hard to break pattern.

[Casster17]

arghhh.. she dropped today in stays. At least this time we weren't sitting on a pass . She basically hugged the judge in SFE

Fun day though

DSO - does she do this on lead too???? or only off lead???

[Aidan]

I guess she's just not ready. Back up a few steps and start logging more repetitions, add distractions carefully so that she continues to succeed. Get to the point where it's just like a real trial, but with more distractions and she has to do it longer. Then enter another trial.

Have you heard of the "300 Peck Method"?