Is A Club Necessary

[Tiggy]

I thought I'd post a new thead on this topic after it came up in another post. I hope dogdude doesn't mind me posting what he wrote below.

An obedience club focus on their bread and butter (pets), and their programs are not designed specifically for trialling (through the grades)

What they do,.....is train you to train a well behaved pet, then the people wanting to go on to trial, find out that what they have actually being teaching all that time,was how to bore the hell out of their dog.

Then you find you have to almost totally retrain your dog to compete with the top trialling dogs, that had their drive nurtured from an 8 week old pup, and have never done 10 minute block heeling let alone almost an hour.(obedience class)

They are first trained "how to learn", then focus, then the rest.

They have been carefully socialised with a few known dogs, but rarely aloud to romp around with other dogs ad lib at off leash parks. When they do go down to the obedience club, their owners don't let just anybody aproach them to "say hello" (a constant danger at clubs)

Their owners generally work them outside of the mainstream classes, to protect their dogs drive levels, and the general boredom of sitting around waiting for a clueless novice to walk up to them with a known aggressive dog, wanting to see if their dog still has agression issues.

Their owners do not practice block heeling at home, and only tend to tie all the part exercises together during a ring run through (trialling class normally) or a trial.

The only reason they go to club is for the distractions (not necessarily in a class)

Their owners know that their dog just needs great focus in a trial, and is not expected to work shoulder to shoulder with another dog (as in a class), except during the stays (probably the only other reason why their owner is at the club).

If you really want to train a high scoring dog, you need to use methods that the top triallers use, and you will rarely see them on display at a club, because the top triallers never expect their dogs to ever learn anything new in that enviroment.

This is why I recommend hooking up with the most sucessful trialler that you can find.

They are not always easy to find, but most are very approachable, and will often take you under their wings if you stroke their egos a bit.

Not all clubs have highly decorated triallers, so be prepared to look outside your club.

Go to a few of the local obediece trials of a weekend, and look for yourself who is doing all the winning (normally the same select few). Strike up a convo and away you go.

[Tay.]

I think i kind of disagree. Jess is my first dog that I've trailled and I would seriously be lost without my club. Also when Jess was in puppies and grade 1 etc, the stuff they taught then really helped with climbing up to trailling level. I think it really depends on the club, but I think my club is a lifesaver

Actually I'm kinda confused on wat this thread is about. haha. Is it for or against clubs? I have a really simple mind that gets confused easily haha!

Edited August 2, 2009 by DogSportObsessed

[Kavik]

If I decide to give obedience trialling a serious go again, I will likely do a lot of it outside of a club for the reasons mentioned. I didn't realise until later how different training a dog for competing would be to training a pet for obedience, and the long blocks of heeling are too long to maintain good focus.

I would instead do lots of motivational work and building the value of rewards like tugging, sending to toys and food rewards, and then get focus and send, as well as shaping positions such as heel, front and finish. Really short sessions. High speed and motivation. Sending and restraint (restrained recall, restrained send).

[JulesP]

Not all clubs do big blocks of heeling. At my club we are taught to only do the heeling for a short period of time.

There isn't much that they do in the lower levels that would interfere with trialling. The people running the trial ring looked at the program and changed a couple of things. The people running the trial ring compete and compete well. Also have some judges.

They don't talk much about training in drive but not everyone that trials trains in drive anyhow. Toy play is strongly encouraged though.

The agility is really geared towards competing. A bit too much so as some people are only doing it to have a play.

[The Spotted Devil]

With my first dog, the obedience club was invaluable....if a little misguided in their training methods

Ziggy hasn't been to one obedience class - I had a pretty clear idea about how I wanted to train him and prefer to utilise like-minded people to practice distractions, stays, stand for exams etc. Some of these people are DOLers, people who I've met trialling in various dog sports and some are from my agility club.

[Tiggy]

For me I'm on the fence because I have learnt alot from training at a club but at the same time I find an hour too long to keep my interest let alone the dogs. I'd much rather train with a small group who are also wanting to trial or already trial.

[JulesP]

I like going to club. I guess if I didn't like going then I would do something different. It is super busy at my club though so if you can get good focus there you should be right for a trial.

[ness]

I am training my second trialling dog. My first was trained to novice level at a club and then on out of club basis through to currently trialling in UD. She later joined UD for ring practice but only once I was ready for proofing the exercises. My second dog has been exclusively trained outside of a club but has attended a club for distraction purposes. She tags along to both agility and obedience training and has done since she was 12 weeks. Ok I do lie she has also belonged to a pet dog club this year since she was 12 months and I needed more people exposure due to her being a tad shy. Wanted some carefully managed socialisation. The focus of this second club is pet focussed, there is no block heeling and I am careful to pick and choose what I want to do with her. Some weeks we don't bother but also now her attention span and motivation level is such that an hour class situation doesn't phase her and she will chill on her mat betwen exercises. We are presently tagging along to some CGC classes run by the same club for the same reason. There is also a bit of a motive as they may possibly be having trial based ring next year but it will only be open to those who have completed classes at the club already.

I know the top WA dogs are not trained at a club and I wouldn't train at a club other than for ring run outs when I am ready.

[Kavik]

I did enjoy going to obedience classes with Diesel, I met some lovely people at one club I'm just not sure it is the best way to get the type of focus I would want.

Agility classes are structured better in a way - sequences which are designed to work on a particular skill, one dog at a time, dog is only working for a short amount of time in one go. You can even put dog in crate in between if you wish.

[OSoSwift]

My first dog was trained from a Club, but we had a class specifically for people wanting trialling training, not just pet.

My current dog had not seen a class until she was 16 months old. She could do everything and do it well, but really needed to retain her focus under distraction. We only go every second week (Hubby works 12 hour shifts every second weekend, so no baby sitter!) and I use artistic license quite often in class!

She is now working quite well with distraction and due to being in season missed her graduation day so is still in class one - but who cares! It is my social kid free time and we love it!

Some people think I am a bit wierd because I don't allow her to play with all the dogs, I remove her if people keep allowing their dog to come up to mine. My main reason for this is she did see the dogs as a higher reward than me! So I am I guess trying to neutralise her to dogs a little, although I am happy for her to play with dogs, just not when we are working - at all.

I think clubs have there place, but if I had the option I would form a connection with a small group of triallers with a common goal.

[Tiggy]

I think clubs have there place, but if I had the option I would form a connection with a small group of triallers with a common goal.

Too bad you're in Esperance, we could be training buddies .

[OSoSwift]

I think clubs have there place, but if I had the option I would form a connection with a small group of triallers with a common goal.

Too bad you're in Esperance, we could be training buddies :D .

I would love to have you as my training buddy, but I think 750kms may be a little far to drive!

When training/trialling my previous dog I had a training buddy, but was the motivator for two! Always checking up that they were practicing certain things, reminding them to get entries in etc.

I would love an equally motivated buddy, so would love to have someone like you Tiggy

Even though trialling is not going to happen for me really soon, hopefully a few years in the future, I always train as though I am trialling, never know, might be able to get a trial in when visiting Perth - I can live in hope!

[RubyStar]

I like going to a club for several reasons:

- it motivates me to get up, go out and train

- the people are lovely

- without them I wouldn't be interested in trialling and wouldn't know what I know today

However, in saying that, if I was to ever get a 3rd dog, I would seriously consider skipping the club classes next time around. I will still be a member of the club, but train next to the classes and for shorter periods, and utilise the ring run-throughs they offer once I was at that stage. But I can only really see me doing that if I could find a training buddy. If I was to train on my own, my motivation would run right down (hence why I use clubs, now). Heck, I'd probably do that now with my current two if I had the training buddy, no need to wait for the 3rd dog to switch tactics. But I'd do a lot of things differently with a new pup, and not just with the "to go to class or not go to class" debate!

Edited August 2, 2009 by RubyStar

[Seita]

My first two dogs were both club trained... the first was using some very very harsh and outdated methods. The next dog was put through the classes but I did do a lot of my own thing and would do bits and pieces rather than a whole class. Neither of these dogs were exceptional trialling dogs, the second one I would consider a good trialling dog but not a top scoring dog.

My current trialling dog was trained completely away from a club. I didn't join a club in Brissy until she was at trialling level and I needed to do a bit more proofing around dogs, and utelise a judge and ring run outs. She would have been about 20 months old before I ever went near a club with her.

Now, I do go to club most weeks to work on UD/Open stuff plus do a bit of work around others. Our trialling class is very relaxed, we do a short amount of heeling - not more than a standard heel pattern. Then we break up and everyone works on their own exercises, we help each other out when needed and usually end the class with group stays at UD level plus a sit stay for those in Open. I enjoy going along to this class as I can work with the equipment I don't have at home (solid jump , box and ud jumps for example), practise some stays, work with other triallers who might notice something I'm doing poorly or I might help them out the same way.

With my next dog I will again do most of his training away from club but as he gets better I will probably start bringing him to club and work him off to the side of a class on the things he is good at and confident doing with distractions. I will probably never put him in a class until he is capable of a trial run out and then only for short bursts as I've done with my other girl.

I don't think you can train a top trialling dog through a normal obedience club's classes, I'm sure there are clubs out there that are aimed more at triallers but there aren't any in brissy that I know of. So I will continue to train my dogs away from clubs using training buddies and only really do a large amount of work with them in a club environment when I want to proof stays, other dogs and the presence of a judge.

[leopuppy04]

I go the club for ring experience and to mix with people who enjoy what I like, and also to bounce ideas off each other.

With my first dog, he did all the classes. My second dog was enrolled in all the classes, but we seldom participated, just sat the tests.

with future dogs I would do PPS and puppy school, but the rest of my training would be out of a club. I still go as often as I can for the ring experience which is invaluable for me

[BeagleBoys2]

I've trained all of my dogs through a club.

With dogs that are a breed of an independant nature the club environment has been a huge value adding experience in their training. The focus I am seeing with my youngest Beagle is the best I have achieved yet! He should be a lot of fun in the trialling ring shortly. I've missed the trialling experience since the loss of my Bailey.

Of course being a more experienced handler than the everyday Joe at a club he started his training at 8 weeks of age. The bulk of training as every good handler will tell you is done away from any formal obedience class. It's important to get that one-on-one training to create the necessary bond to see achievements. And I've learnt that you need to take advice from everyone and store it for that rainy day when you may need to put it into use...no two things work the same way with every dog you may have.

The ring run out sessions are a MUST. At my club we help new trial members to improve their ring etiquette and judges have commented on it.

I also now have a younger pup going through Class 1. The instructors are doing a good job stressing getting exercises right. My current instructor continually explains to the class the reason he is teaching something a certain way. Should anyone decide down the track that they want to trial they are already to standard and do not need to re-train their dogs. The club also encourages the instructor to break up the classes and allow the dogs to have breaks. This allows handlers time to have a bit of a play or pat.

Plus by being a member of a club you have the opportunity to volunteer at trials. I think being in the ring with a judge and hearing their comments and seeing first hand the competition is all valuable experience. I know for me nerve wise getting to know so many judges has help minimise the nerves in the ring. As we all know failures at trial are generally handler related and the old nerve factor plays the huges part.

[Aussienot]

I think like most things in training- depends on the trainer, the dog and the club. I'm not sure you can generalise based on one club experience. A club is not necessary, but a good one can certainly be helpful.

The club where I instruct leans a little too close to trial training for the beginning dogs, IMHO. In the advanced classes, yes, some people are training for trialling; but in the intro classes, most people just come to have a better behaved pet.

So the challenge for instructors goes beyond teaching the sit drop and heel. The hard part is giving the new members the excitement and interest in training their dog, and encouraging those that have potential to go beyond 'pet dog manners'. Also providing classes that set the foundation for both pet manners and strict obedience exercises. Luckily the three people who teach the intro classes understand this and strike the balance pretty well.

I also think one hour is way too long for actual learning. Our club trains the upper classes in two half hour blocks, with a tea break in between. Some people only train for the first half, and some people swap dogs in between sessions. Intro classes run for 30 to 40 minutes, depending on the attention level of the dogs.

As a big community based club, we have to be a broad church, and teach for a wide range of outcomes.

Most experienced trainers will do their serious trial training alone or in small groups, and use club classes for group stays and general control and focus, and neutralising to the presence of other dogs. (Also for fun, and to brag about their dogs.)

Edited August 4, 2009 by Aussienot

[poodlefan]

Whether or not you train at a club, I think all active obedience triallers should be members of one.

It's the clubs that conduct trials and club members that do all the donkey work. They deserve support, both financial and practical.

Anyone who sets foot in a trialling ring without having stewarded at that particular level does themselves no favours IMO. You won't get a better opportunity to see what's required in the ring.

[BeagleBoys2]

Whether or not you train at a club, I think all active obedience triallers should be members of one.

It's the clubs that conduct trials and club members that do all the donkey work. They deserve support, both financial and practical.

Anyone who sets foot in a trialling ring without having stewarded at that particular level does themselves no favours IMO. You won't get a better opportunity to see what's required in the ring.

I agree!

[leopuppy04]

Whether or not you train at a club, I think all active obedience triallers should be members of one.

It's the clubs that conduct trials and club members that do all the donkey work. They deserve support, both financial and practical.

Anyone who sets foot in a trialling ring without having stewarded at that particular level does themselves no favours IMO. You won't get a better opportunity to see what's required in the ring.

THIS I definitely agree with!