The Spotted Devil Posted July 31, 2009 Share Posted July 31, 2009 (edited) wide, mischievous eyes, stiffened his body and legs so I couldn't shift him and wagged his tail furiously in delight See- that, I don't see as defiant, but rather, a preparatory/anticipatory response to the 'game ' of being picked up .... ??? Yes, good point pers (as always) Definitely my interpretation as an owner, not my perspective as a scientist Bloody hell but he was funny Edited July 31, 2009 by The Spotted Devil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leopuppy04 Posted July 31, 2009 Share Posted July 31, 2009 I have been thinking of this- and thinking what meaning I associate with defiant.... I don't think dogs are commonly 'defiant'...I think they can be confused, anxious, uncertain,aroused by something like a prey animal, excited, totally focussed on something other than the handler... but not so much 'defiant', as in "NO! I am NOT doing it- just because..." Maybe I am thinking wrong Nope - I think exactly the same as you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
persephone Posted July 31, 2009 Share Posted July 31, 2009 Bloody hell but he was funny rofl1.gif that's a big trap, isn't it? we laugh at the buggers, and lose our focus!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JulesP Posted July 31, 2009 Share Posted July 31, 2009 Thought of another naughty Brock moment. I was trying to get him in the bath, which has a glass screen around it. He planted one foot on one side of the door and the other on the other side of the door so I couldn't get him in. How did I handle it? I got a hydrabath! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Spotted Devil Posted July 31, 2009 Share Posted July 31, 2009 Bloody hell but he was funny rofl1.gif that's a big trap, isn't it? we laugh at the buggers, and lose our focus!!!!! Oh absolutely! I always remind myself that as WE are supposed to be the most intelligent of species, it might not hurt to engage my brain in problem solving sometimes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
persephone Posted July 31, 2009 Share Posted July 31, 2009 How did I handle it? I got a hydrabath! LOL! sensible thought Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corvus Posted July 31, 2009 Author Share Posted July 31, 2009 Personally, I am unsurprisingly in the "he's confused or underpaid" camp. My problem is figuring out which! It seems that increasing the value of the reward can help with both, though. My mother has this dog that will hold out for something better if he thinks you might have it back in the house or something. Spooky smart Master Pyry has a "Hmmmm.... if barking distractedly equals offering of better treats... I wonder if I can stand in the yard and bark distractedly to make the humans present these better treats?" look. Pyry is also known for running under the table and barking even more loudly when you say "Pyry, stop it!" and then skipping out of reach when you bend down to beckon him, then lowering his head and barking at you and your piddling treats when you try to lure him out. All results of lazy training and handling, but that's the difference between a forgiving dog and an unforgiving dog. I was just as lazy with Penny and it never occurred to her to test the consequences for doing what she wanted to do instead. Kivi is somewhere in between the two. Every now and then when he knows I've got awesome jackpot treats reserved for emergency recalls he thinks sitting when asked is worth more than a "good boy" or a bite of chewy junk food treats despite the fact that he was perfectly fine with those rewards for a sit two minutes ago. I usually indulge him once or twice because my thought is it strengthens motivation for everyday things to reward them spectacularly every now and then? And because he doesn't remember to hold out if he doesn't know I have good treats, unlike Pyry who goes "What else do you have?" when sadly all I've got is a ball with a furry tail and some dried liver. For some reason Pyry thinks I in particular might reward him with a live bird if he holds out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leopuppy04 Posted July 31, 2009 Share Posted July 31, 2009 Personally, I am unsurprisingly in the "he's confused or underpaid" camp. My problem is figuring out which! It seems that increasing the value of the reward can help with both, though. I think you are putting too much thought into what a dog actually *thinks* . Confusion usually is a result of being underpaid or poor timing (again underpaid!)... say I missed C&T a few times one behaviour which I should have, confusion will set in and the dog may be 'defiant' to not do the behaviour any more. This is because he *no longer sees the value in doing so* either due to the confusion (so behaviour is no longer rewarding) or the rules have changed (rewards don't come any more). I think you need to be variable with what, when, how and where you deliver the rewards. I also think that what you are describing between your parent's dogs and your previous dogs is chaining behaviours. eg: - what causes a dog to jump on you then sit down? Because we *ignore* all the other times the dog is doing just as we would like (sitting down nicely, staring holes into us for a treat) mainly because we are too busy gasbagging to the other person. Our dogs can quickly chain a behaviour and learn that the *best predictor* to getting a reward is not to always sit quietly (he gets ignored), not to consistently jump (he gets ignored/ punished) but to jump, then sit, or bark, then sit... because THAT"s what gets your attention. Dog jumps - you think "oh that's right, I need to reward my dog for sitting" Dog sits - you reward, and then keep up the flow of rewards for maintaining that sit. Simple mistake that you see often Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ness Posted July 31, 2009 Share Posted July 31, 2009 Hmm lets put this scenario to you. You ask the dog for a behavior - only something simple which they can do in an environment which they are 100% happy in, dog does behavior you reward and I don't mean a token reward. You ask for the same behavior again - this time dog barks at you and stands looking at you but doesn't comply with behavior. You have changed nothing, its a behavior the dog understand 100% of the time (as much as a dog can be 100% proficient), in a variety of locations, you are asking for the behavior in a environment which is in essence a skinners box with no distractions (thinking a room in your house with nothing to distract the dog). Your tone, body language are for all intensive purposes identical to that used the first time. Now I wouldn't think the dog is underpaid or confused so where does that leave you . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
persephone Posted July 31, 2009 Share Posted July 31, 2009 I think ,too, that if /when we put a 'test' to a dog...eg: we put the dog somewhere, and determine to see just how well dog can complete a task/command... we do, however subtly, change body language/voice tone... dog reads this, and so the command/request/test is NOT delivered in the same way When training Guide dogs........... they could be reliable at ,say, stopping at every kerb/laneway/grass verge. Ok Comes a female handler's menstruation days... or days prior- and we would find many dogs just ignoring so much of what they had previously done We were working the same dogs,same areas, same tasks,same commands..... Our instructor warned us very early on in the training course to avoid anything too complicated on those days- rather do 'free running'.. simple straightline walks, or similar. So- I believe that dogs can read ANY change in our way of delivering a command- and perhaps their reactions are a response to the info. they process ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staranais Posted July 31, 2009 Share Posted July 31, 2009 Hmm lets put this scenario to you. You ask the dog for a behavior - only something simple which they can do in an environment which they are 100% happy in, dog does behavior you reward and I don't mean a token reward. You ask for the same behavior again - this time dog barks at you and stands looking at you but doesn't comply with behavior. You have changed nothing, its a behavior the dog understand 100% of the time (as much as a dog can be 100% proficient), in a variety of locations, you are asking for the behavior in a environment which is in essence a skinners box with no distractions (thinking a room in your house with nothing to distract the dog). Your tone, body language are for all intensive purposes identical to that used the first time. Now I wouldn't think the dog is underpaid or confused so where does that leave you . Some people would say still under rewarded, I'm guessing. I personally think that in situations like that there's nothing wrong with putting your foot down and using compulsion to make it clear to the (unconfused, well paid) dog that obedience isn't optional. I'm happy to reward with food or toys constantly when my dog is learning new behaviours, and also happy to reward with food or toys constantly when my dog is doing something particularly tricky or precise (commands under high distraction or tracking, obedience etc), but refuse to give anything except praise and attention or life rewards for routine behaviours in low distraction environments. If the dog doesn't do well known behaviours in a low distraction environment, I'd correct - as mildly as necessary to get the point across. I'm mean. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aidan Posted July 31, 2009 Share Posted July 31, 2009 Hmm lets put this scenario to you. You ask the dog for a behavior - only something simple which they can do in an environment which they are 100% happy in, dog does behavior you reward and I don't mean a token reward. You ask for the same behavior again - this time dog barks at you and stands looking at you but doesn't comply with behavior. You have changed nothing I don't train in a Skinner box so I could always quite reasonably make the assumption that no two repetitions are identical, but at the same time I also accept that even if all other things were equal, that sometimes the dog is just having a "moment". I have "moments" all the time, even during tasks where I am well trained. I have many more "moments" than my dogs, that's for sure! I work mostly with aggressive or reactive dogs, so I am never really surprised when a client's dog cannot do something very simple that has been repeated many times in similar situations. You quite often find that something has happened, maybe on the way to class, or earlier in the day, or even in the dog's week. Some dogs really dislike a change of routine, particularly if it means they get a bit neglected. It doesn't really matter, we can always back up a step or two and quickly remedy the problem, in fact frequently the behaviour will end up stronger for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ness Posted July 31, 2009 Share Posted July 31, 2009 an opinionated moment. It was merely a hypothetical although I do get the occasion where I can be training a behavior I change nothing I ask for the same behavior and all I get a certain dog just stands there barking at me rather than behaving herself . Although the worst bit is when she barks at you and then maybe half a second later then gives you the correct response . Its certainly not underpaid, its certainly not due to confusion and she does know what your asking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leopuppy04 Posted July 31, 2009 Share Posted July 31, 2009 (edited) an opinionated moment. It was merely a hypothetical although I do get the occasion where I can be training a behavior I change nothing I ask for the same behavior and all I get a certain dog just stands there barking at me rather than behaving herself . Although the worst bit is when she barks at you and then maybe half a second later then gives you the correct response ;) . Its certainly not underpaid, its certainly not due to confusion and she does know what your asking. Well Ness - as yourself this - she (whichever 'she' it may be )... is clicker trained and therefore warrant to throwing behaviours around. so it could be: *excitement 'yay we're working, I KNOW how to do this one!' followed by the correct response (I will not 'pay', perhaps not at all, these behaviours as well so that the dog can distinguish what I want) *Offering a new behaviour to see if you like this one better * a brain fart ETA - I agree with Persephone that something as little as our menstural cycles can affect our dogs behaviour too Edited July 31, 2009 by leopuppy04 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leopuppy04 Posted July 31, 2009 Share Posted July 31, 2009 I'm happy to reward with food or toys constantly when my dog is learning new behaviours, and also happy to reward with food or toys constantly when my dog is doing something particularly tricky or precise (commands under high distraction or tracking, obedience etc), but refuse to give anything except praise and attention or life rewards for routine behaviours in low distraction environments. If the dog doesn't do well known behaviours in a low distraction environment, I'd correct - as mildly as necessary to get the point across.I'm mean. I still wouldn't call it 'defiance' though, even if I did correct I believe it's an emotion that dogs do not posess. How can we say that 'my dog doesn't pull down the washing on Mondays to spite me' to then say 'when my dog disobeys a sit he is being defiant'. I believe that's why pet owners are so confused as to what/ why their dog is behaving as such in particular instances (why is my dog barking at the back door, digging holes etc) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staranais Posted July 31, 2009 Share Posted July 31, 2009 I'm happy to reward with food or toys constantly when my dog is learning new behaviours, and also happy to reward with food or toys constantly when my dog is doing something particularly tricky or precise (commands under high distraction or tracking, obedience etc), but refuse to give anything except praise and attention or life rewards for routine behaviours in low distraction environments. If the dog doesn't do well known behaviours in a low distraction environment, I'd correct - as mildly as necessary to get the point across.I'm mean. I still wouldn't call it 'defiance' though, even if I did correct I believe it's an emotion that dogs do not posess. How can we say that 'my dog doesn't pull down the washing on Mondays to spite me' to then say 'when my dog disobeys a sit he is being defiant'. I believe that's why pet owners are so confused as to what/ why their dog is behaving as such in particular instances (why is my dog barking at the back door, digging holes etc) No, I think true defiance in a dog is very rare, and I certainly wouldn't call that example defiance. I'd more describe it as the dog pushing the boundaries of what he can away with - just checking to see if the rules are still in force! Quite reasonable of him to do so from time to time, and equally reasonable of me to calmly insist on being obeyed. ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ness Posted July 31, 2009 Share Posted July 31, 2009 To answer LP its midget dog I am talking about its its more than just the barking but the look on her face as she gets a cheeky make me look to her . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aidan Posted July 31, 2009 Share Posted July 31, 2009 Has anyone read the new Karen Pryor book "Reaching the Animal Mind"? It has some interesting anecdotes about this sort of thing across a variety of species. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corvus Posted July 31, 2009 Author Share Posted July 31, 2009 Ness, your scenario is pretty much exactly what my mum's dog Pyry does when he has it in his head that you might have something better. I am yet to figure out how these ideas come to him. I'm sure there's something that triggers it, but I dunno what. It's not a big leap for a dog like Pyry to go "Hmm, barking brought the good treats out" but it was a leap that Penny never made her whole life despite the same bribery taking place around her. Kivi does the thing where he decides he's gonna bark at you instead of doing the thing I know he can do under all sorts of distractions. The thing about the barking in response to a command is that standing, feet apart, head slightly lowered, tail up and barking quite loudly seems like a confident action. I call it defiance because I don't know what else to call it. I don't really think that "pushing the boundaries" is more accurate. What's the difference between pushing the boundaries and defiance from a cognitive sort of perspective? To me, the message I get from a dog that's barking instead of doing what he's told is "No! Don't wanna!" but in that easy-going fashion dogs have when they want to protest something without being too directly confrontational. If it turns out you're going to be hardcore about it they can be all like "I'm a playful puppy; love me!" Okay, that's reading more into it than there is, but just as a way to sort of translate. I realise I've been sub-consciously putting it in the same category as that goofy thing Kivi does when he accidentally aggravates another dog and he tries to turn it into a game. It's often successful, by the way. BUT, what I interpret as "No! Don't wanna!" may actually be just frustration. Sometimes I know it is. Maybe it always is. Perhaps even when Kivi knows the command he is frustrated that I somehow expect him to do it. I've noticed that I'm most likely to get that response if it's something he isn't wild about doing, or it's something that takes a bit of energy. It's not that he doesn't like playing dead, he just doesn't really want to put himself all the way down on the ground just so I can go "hooray" and make him get back up again. He is a lazy dog. He'll do it once, but if it's shaping up to look like I'm going to keep asking the same thing, he might bark at me, which I kinda take as him basically giving me the finger. Which means I need to offer better rewards if I want his cooperation, or I accept that he's bored with my training and try to spice it up a bit. Incidentally, what I think is a truly erroneous use of the word defiance with dogs is when, for example, OH uses Kivi's emergency recall when he has just become uber zoned in on a new dog that might play with him and is already running off to find out, and then when Kivi doesn't even turn an ear at the recall, OH says "The little ****!" and I have to sit there saying "He didn't even hear you!" or in earlier days "Don't be calling him when he's just found something really interesting to check out! He's not being disobedient. In his head he's just doing what is more fun. That's what dogs do." I swear, OH will be banned from using the ER without my permission with the next dog. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ness Posted July 31, 2009 Share Posted July 31, 2009 As I said its more then just the barking. You get frustration barking but its the whole package. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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