corvus Posted July 30, 2009 Share Posted July 30, 2009 What do you do when your dog defies you? Example, you give a command and pup barks and whines at you instead of doing it and you KNOW they know it. Or, you give a command and your dog thinks about it, then decides to do something else instead? Or that moment when you have a young dog or puppy and they think they'll try backing away from you and barking rather than doing what they were asked? What do you do if this happens when your dog is not on leash? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Spotted Devil Posted July 30, 2009 Share Posted July 30, 2009 (edited) Dalmatian puppy/teen = "defiance"....how do you think I came up with my forum name? Ideally I try to figure out how to increase the motivation to do what I want him to rather than do his own thing. I try to make myself more interesting....MUCH more interesting. An off-leash Zig who doesn't come when he's called gets put back on lead (plus verbal NRM) quietly and without fuss and not permitted to sniff or do anything interesting for a few minutes. Release. Recall. Reward (food) heavily. It's worked a treat for us but it may not work for everyone. Zig has the most delightful, enthusiastic recall now. I use brilliant treats of varying shapes, sizes, flavours and delivery methods. When he was a pup I tried to supervise and prevent and distract and reward and praise and ignore as much as possible. Occasionally I used the water squirt bottle for isolated behaviours. Although at times I really did want to wring his Spotted Neck :D he is an absolute delight now! ETA: My current motto of choice is nicked from Sue Hogben - a dog that doesn't do as it's told is either confused or underpaid. Edited July 30, 2009 by The Spotted Devil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huski Posted July 30, 2009 Share Posted July 30, 2009 Hmmm, it would depend on the situation I think, if it was the first time they'd done it or if it was a habit, and what I've used with the dog in the past that has been successful to correct them. I might use a NRM, or I might use compulsion (i.e. they refuse to sit, so I push their bum down gently), I might remove the treat, ignore them, I might work on making myself more exciting and of a higher value for the next time etc etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WildatHeart Posted July 30, 2009 Share Posted July 30, 2009 Easy. One of the rules of dog training. Dont give a command unless your in a position to reward/punish. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corvus Posted July 30, 2009 Author Share Posted July 30, 2009 Easy. One of the rules of dog training. Dont give a command unless your in a position to reward/punish. You've never done an off leash recall? Or wanted to use a command like "leave it" over a distance? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cosmolo Posted July 30, 2009 Share Posted July 30, 2009 I will enforce the command in some way or remove something the dog wants. Off lead recalls or commands at distance are not given until they are proofed properly and the dog understands either a verbal correction and/ or a no reward mark. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ness Posted July 30, 2009 Share Posted July 30, 2009 Spotty or in the case of BCs .. confused, under paid or doing a great job training the handler . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Spotted Devil Posted July 30, 2009 Share Posted July 30, 2009 Spotty or in the case of BCs .. confused, under paid or doing a great job training the handler :D . Heh heh I have an 'anticipator' here - can't ever correct him with more than a very relaxed NRM as he's trying SO hard to earn the reward. Makes me prepare VERY carefully for a trial Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ness Posted July 30, 2009 Share Posted July 30, 2009 I need a new trial dog my current ones are non-functional . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corvus Posted July 30, 2009 Author Share Posted July 30, 2009 One of the hardest things I found in training was knowing when something would be reliable in a more challenging environment, or knowing when my dog was confused and didn't know what I'd asked and when he knew but didn't want to do it. I feel like it's kind of inevitable that at some point you will misjudge how reliable something is or the pull of a valued distraction compared to what you are offering. I think it's really important to know what you're going to do in that situation whether you can avoid it or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agility Dogs Posted July 30, 2009 Share Posted July 30, 2009 ETA: My current motto of choice is nicked from Sue Hogben - a dog that doesn't do as it's told is either confused or underpaid. That very eloquently sums up what I was thinking. If one of my dogs 'defies' me it is generally because there is something better on offer or becuase I thought they knew, but with the benefit of hindsight I find out they didn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkySoaringMagpie Posted July 30, 2009 Share Posted July 30, 2009 I feel like it's kind of inevitable that at some point you will misjudge how reliable something is or the pull of a valued distraction compared to what you are offering. I wouldn't characterise that as defiance because the dog is just being a dog and I've misjudged what it is capable of. I agree that it's useful to have a plan about what you're going to do - my plan pretty much boils down to "don't let them self-reward" whatever the situation is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Piri Posted July 30, 2009 Share Posted July 30, 2009 What do you do when your dog defies you? Example, you give a command and pup barks and whines at you instead of doing it and you KNOW they know it. Or, you give a command and your dog thinks about it, then decides to do something else instead? Or that moment when you have a young dog or puppy and they think they'll try backing away from you and barking rather than doing what they were asked? What do you do if this happens when your dog is not on leash? first you have to ask yourself does the dog truly understand what you are asking.If it does maybe the dog is under paid and lacks stimulation to do the command on cue.Go back and reward more often setting your dog up for success and ignoring or NRM for incorrect behaviour. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WildatHeart Posted July 30, 2009 Share Posted July 30, 2009 Easy. One of the rules of dog training. Dont give a command unless your in a position to reward/punish. You've never done an off leash recall? Or wanted to use a command like "leave it" over a distance? Not until the dog has been proofed in many different situations, and etc, and is reliable no, i wont do off lead recalls or leave its. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leopuppy04 Posted July 30, 2009 Share Posted July 30, 2009 (edited) ETA: My current motto of choice is nicked from Sue Hogben - a dog that doesn't do as it's told is either confused or underpaid. to that quote TSD! I can also attest to Zig's amazing recall One of the hardest things I found in training was knowing when something would be reliable in a more challenging environment, or knowing when my dog was confused and didn't know what I'd asked and when he knew but didn't want to do it. I feel like it's kind of inevitable that at some point you will misjudge how reliable something is or the pull of a valued distraction compared to what you are offering. I think it's really important to know what you're going to do in that situation whether you can avoid it or not. I think that if I went to a more challenging environment I would make it really easy for them to succeed. I also think you learn to read the lesser signals of when your dog is confused. It's true that you will and can at some stage misjudge how reliable they are on something, but I wouldn't chastise the dog for that. I would end on a high and smack myself on the wrist for not thinking things through and starting at a lower level of difficulty Edited July 30, 2009 by leopuppy04 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
persephone Posted July 30, 2009 Share Posted July 30, 2009 I have been thinking of this- and thinking what meaning I associate with defiant.... I don't think dogs are commonly 'defiant'... I think they can be confused, anxious, uncertain,aroused by something like a prey animal, excited, totally focussed on something other than the handler... but not so much 'defiant', as in "NO! I am NOT doing it- just because..." Maybe I am thinking wrong Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Spotted Devil Posted July 30, 2009 Share Posted July 30, 2009 (edited) I have been thinking of this- and thinking what meaning I associate with defiant.... I don't think dogs are commonly 'defiant'...I think they can be confused, anxious, uncertain,aroused by something like a prey animal, excited, totally focussed on something other than the handler... but not so much 'defiant', as in "NO! I am NOT doing it- just because..." Maybe I am thinking wrong Yep! I had a moment yesterday - I've been away and OH can't let Ziggy off leash (walks him twice a day instead). I took him to the park to do some training and he was woefully distracted with 10 days of built up frustration. In the nick of time I realised what was going on so just did brief, easy stuff, rewarded heavily and frequently then released for a mad run. And repeat The subtle signs of confusion/anxiety that LP mentioned - a very slight ear flick or 'frown' or a lack of 'softness' in the body are things I look for in Ziggy. ETA: The only time I would ever class Zig's behaviour as defiant was an episode as a young teen. He would do a zoomie in the house and then throw himself on the couch with glee. I quietly picked him up and removed him. Another zoomie and a flying leap onto the couch Repeat. When I went to remove him the third time, the little Devil looked at me with wide, mischievous eyes, stiffened his body and legs so I couldn't shift him and wagged his tail furiously in delight Little turd knew exactly what he was doing!!! Had to pull out the big guns and threaten him with a water spray bottle to get past that trick! Edited July 31, 2009 by The Spotted Devil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aidan Posted July 31, 2009 Share Posted July 31, 2009 Great thread! I wish more people understood this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JulesP Posted July 31, 2009 Share Posted July 31, 2009 I really can't think of a time that my dogs have been defiant. The nearest was when I told Brock to get off the flower bed once and I swear he rolled his eyes at me as he did it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
persephone Posted July 31, 2009 Share Posted July 31, 2009 wide, mischievous eyes, stiffened his body and legs so I couldn't shift him and wagged his tail furiously in delight See- that, I don't see as defiant, but rather, a preparatory/anticipatory response to the 'game ' of being picked up .... ??? It's MANY years since my dog psychology days.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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