Raw/natural Chitchat

[BCPuppy]

I used to feed raw but then meat jumped in price and I went back to kibble, but my boy just had to have his glands done today by the vet so I'm feeling guilty and thinking of going raw again. I read somewhere else that you can feed your dogs chicken wings (raw), I always thought they would be too brittle for dogs. Does anyone else feed them or heard of anyone who did and had problems?

Also, I'm in Perth so does anyone know of a good place to purchase cheap meat either human or pet grade?

Lifted from the sticky 'where to buy raw'

Avon Valley Beef

Truganina Rd, Malaga

Good selection of bulk meat - not just beef - also have chicken and bags of bones and some other offcuts. Also have a larger retail shop not far from this one but not sure where it is.

Warwick Shopping Centre Butcher

Good selection of off cuts (eg tongue, liver, kidney). Also have pet mince and bones. All the pet meat is around one side of the front counter.

Innaloo Fish Shop

In the little collection of shops next to the main Innaloo shopping centre. Got a massive bag of fish off cuts - open 7 days.

Butcher Morris Place Innaloo

Good selection of all meats.

Giva Doga Bone

Wanneroo Markets, Wangara - They don't have a huge selection and it is mostly beef or lamb.

A & D Pet Food Supplies

Elliott Road Midvale (off Farrell Road)

Open till 5pm mon-fri and to 12pm saturday.

Stock fresh roo, beef, chicken, lamb meat. Kill/pack the roo and lamb on premises.

Most are $2.85 p/kilo, plus selected bones.

I get meaty bones (lamb and beef) from the butcher opposite Woolworth in Mirrabooka shopping centre. $2-3 for a huge bag.

Leonards Chicken, Livingstone Shopping Cente, Sells chicken frames bag of 10 for $2.50 sometimes very meaty. Minced frames are $1.50 KG plenty of meat but not always minced well, so possiably more risk of bone injury than with frames.

Butchers at Maddington Plaza sells frozen meat packs for a couple of dollars a Kg.

Farmer Jacks's Maddington often has bags of Hamburger mince for under $5 a Kg. Frozen bags of chicken pieces for around $3 to$4 a kg on special

Pet Chef in Midland

Better Pets and Gardens - all over WA

South St Pet Supplies

372 South Street

O'CONNOR WA 6163

Ph: (08) 93378599

Natural Paws

209 Cormorant Court

Southern River

Western Australia 6110

(08) 9398 4616

www.naturalpaws.com.au (they also have an online store and deliver)

Natural Paws have big lamb shanks for $1 each which is much cheaper than I have been able to find them anywhere else

Drovers Markets Wanneroo Rd/Joondalup

big bags of bones & offcuts $2-3, chicken frames $1 per kg, turkey necks, some offal, chicken giblets, livers, necks

check out specials in people food section, got a bag of chicken wings (40) for $10

good meaty drumsticks. Also check out fish shop, sure there would be some good buys there, I didnt need to as we catch our own fish! Also open 7 days week

Prota Pet Food

55 Dellamarta Road

Wangara

Direct from factory, minced kangaroo, 400g packs, no preservatives. Special price for seconds (wrong packaging, overruns etc.) around 1/2 price of supermarket.

Leonards Chicken Joondalup. Well minced frames, lots of meat in them, 4kg for $5

[Swiss Girl]

Thankyou so much

I had no idea there were so many places to get cheap meat in Perth

Lifted from the sticky 'where to buy raw'

Avon Valley Beef

Truganina Rd, Malaga

Good selection of bulk meat - not just beef - also have chicken and bags of bones and some other offcuts. Also have a larger retail shop not far from this one but not sure where it is.

Warwick Shopping Centre Butcher

Good selection of off cuts (eg tongue, liver, kidney). Also have pet mince and bones. All the pet meat is around one side of the front counter.

Innaloo Fish Shop

In the little collection of shops next to the main Innaloo shopping centre. Got a massive bag of fish off cuts - open 7 days.

Butcher Morris Place Innaloo

Good selection of all meats.

Giva Doga Bone

Wanneroo Markets, Wangara - They don't have a huge selection and it is mostly beef or lamb.

A & D Pet Food Supplies

Elliott Road Midvale (off Farrell Road)

Open till 5pm mon-fri and to 12pm saturday.

Stock fresh roo, beef, chicken, lamb meat. Kill/pack the roo and lamb on premises.

Most are $2.85 p/kilo, plus selected bones.

I get meaty bones (lamb and beef) from the butcher opposite Woolworth in Mirrabooka shopping centre. $2-3 for a huge bag.

Leonards Chicken, Livingstone Shopping Cente, Sells chicken frames bag of 10 for $2.50 sometimes very meaty. Minced frames are $1.50 KG plenty of meat but not always minced well, so possiably more risk of bone injury than with frames.

Butchers at Maddington Plaza sells frozen meat packs for a couple of dollars a Kg.

Farmer Jacks's Maddington often has bags of Hamburger mince for under $5 a Kg. Frozen bags of chicken pieces for around $3 to$4 a kg on special

Pet Chef in Midland

Better Pets and Gardens - all over WA

South St Pet Supplies

372 South Street

O'CONNOR WA 6163

Ph: (08) 93378599

Natural Paws

209 Cormorant Court

Southern River

Western Australia 6110

(08) 9398 4616

www.naturalpaws.com.au (they also have an online store and deliver)

Natural Paws have big lamb shanks for $1 each which is much cheaper than I have been able to find them anywhere else

Drovers Markets Wanneroo Rd/Joondalup

big bags of bones & offcuts $2-3, chicken frames $1 per kg, turkey necks, some offal, chicken giblets, livers, necks

check out specials in people food section, got a bag of chicken wings (40) for $10

good meaty drumsticks. Also check out fish shop, sure there would be some good buys there, I didnt need to as we catch our own fish! Also open 7 days week

Prota Pet Food

55 Dellamarta Road

Wangara

Direct from factory, minced kangaroo, 400g packs, no preservatives. Special price for seconds (wrong packaging, overruns etc.) around 1/2 price of supermarket.

Leonards Chicken Joondalup. Well minced frames, lots of meat in them, 4kg for $5

[LuckyLuck]

2kg mince (lamb, turkey, beef or pork - combo of two) (can also add heart as another nutrient rich muscle meat)

1 kg veggies (minced) (might still reduce the amount - more research -post #8)

3 eggs -whole, raw, including shell (minced)

150g liver (minced) * liver now increased to 200g PLUS 200g of other organ eg. spleen, pancreas, brain, lung, kidney, etc

150g sardines * increased to 250g sardines

400g tuna * tuna changed to salmon & reduced to 200g

2 cups rolled oats (was deleted at first, then after more research reduced to * 1 cup ... still researching -post #8)

splash of olive oil * changed to tablespoon of Wheatgerm oil

tablespoon of granulated garlic * garlic reduced to a flat dessertspoon

1/2 bunch fresh parsley (minced)

(green tripe is looking like a good addition too)

Bones every 2-3 days (fat/skin trimmed). Most lamb bones particularly necks; chicken wings or legs; turkey wings. We've had a few issues of trial and error and these seem to be the ones they do best with.

I have tried looking locally (I am in Hawaii) for Dr. Billinhurst's book on the barf diet but it is no where to be found.

I am considering feeding raw to my shih tzu. He is only 4.5 months old. Would this be good for a pup or more for an adult dog? Also, does the breed type matter?

If not, what are your recommendations?

THanks.

Edited March 2, 2010 by LuckyLuck

[MavericksMission]

Okay, so I am new to this raw diet stuff.. but very interested!!

I have a 10week old pup at the moment.

I want to put him on a raw diet of mince & vege.

(plus chicken necks & bones as treats)

Would it be okay to put a puppy this young onto a raw diet..

Also would the be nutrients/supplements that I will have to add for a growing pup?

Also.. (sorry for all the questions..) does it have to be pet mince or can I by human mince?

Any help would be muchly appreciated!

[peacefrog]

I've recently started my shih tzu on a new diet full of bones, fresh meats, fish etc- not so much the full raw principals, but the main objective was to move away from the commercial tinned foods and feed her human grade meats.

I introduced the raw meats into her tinned food for the first couple of days but she was having a great deal of tummy upset. She is prone to mild attacks of pancreatitis so I thought this was what was happening,so I took her to the vet and explained what I was doing and why I wanted to continue. She didn't have the pancreatitis but just an upset tummy so he put her on a dose of ant-acids which really helped and mentioned to poach her meat a little until she gets used to it. I have done this for the last 3 weeks and the problem has gone away, so now I'll slowly be introducing her back to raw.

Now she is accepting everything, her tummy has settled, the next step is to ensure she is getting everything she needs in her new diet.

I am at a loss as to whether to go full BARF, add in a supplement to what I'm currently doing- like Vet's All Natural or a premium dry food instead.

This is an example of what she has been getting, (all meats have been poached so far).

Morning:

1 x chicken wing or RMB

tin of tuna/sardines in springwater or tin of pink salmon with dollop of cottage cheese or tablespoons of scrambled eggs

1-2 days a week I give her nothing

Evening:

Diced veal or round steak - or

Chicken, rice and vegetable puree mix 1-2x weekly

Poached liver or kidney or heart 2x weekly

+ add in raw egg and/or ground egg shells, cottage cheese etc

Would a) appreciate other things I can introduce to her diet - I guess if I want to go raw I need to introduce alot more bones. & b) How I am going for balance - obviously when all of the above is fed raw. I've read so much on chicken frames? How are these fed? ARe they suitable for small dogs??

[toshman]

Okay, so I am new to this raw diet stuff.. but very interested!!

I have a 10week old pup at the moment.

I want to put him on a raw diet of mince & vege.

(plus chicken necks & bones as treats)

Would it be okay to put a puppy this young onto a raw diet..

Also would the be nutrients/supplements that I will have to add for a growing pup?

Also.. (sorry for all the questions..) does it have to be pet mince or can I by human mince?

Any help would be muchly appreciated!

Hi MavericksMission - great idea to start your pup off on a raw diet, but just mince meat is not adequate, especially for a growing pup. He should be getting bones as part of his diet as well, not just as treats! Chicken wings/necks are great - just supervise him eating at first. He can gradually work up to a variety of bones - lamb necks, shanks, beef bones, etc. I work on a ratio of 60% meat to 40% bone. He should also get some liver every now and then, raw and added to his meals.

Raw minced veggies are great, too - introduce him to fruit as well. And I would always go for the human grade mince/meat if you can - never quite sure what's in pet mince myself!!

Supplements - if he's getting a good variety of meat and veggines he doesn't really need any, but that's a personal thing. Maybe a raw egg a couple of times a week, or some yoghurt would be fine.

Good luck with it -

[guest2]

Great thread have learnt a lot.

Will be picking up a 12 week old French bulldog in a few weeks and the breeder feeds his dogs on minced chicken frames with added egg,oils and vegies etc and I have decided to continue in that way.Kibble etc will be given a miss.

Based on links provided in this thread would just like to clarify a couple of things.Below is what I am considering.

^ 50-60% Raw meaty bones (RMBs). chicken, lamb, pork, beef, fish, rabbit, venison, etc.

^ 10-15% Meats of the same animals

^ 10-15% Organ meats (also called 'offal')

^ Fish oils

My questions are can I mix minced chicken frames with 10-15% of red meat mince as I think a variety of different types of meat would perhaps make a more balanced diet?

Would it be better to alternate between minced chicken frames and a similar red meat mix,if so what type of mince should I be looking for.

Alternately would anyone here recommend a different type recipe if so what and what ratios would you use?

Lastly the above %'s even at the highest recommendation only come to 90%.Am I reading this wrong or can't the author count?

Cheers Tom

[Staranais]

i find using a bit of vets all natural complete mix in with whatever raw meat i am using usually chicken or blade steak,but i also add their vegies and whatever leftover's i have in with it. i dont live by vets all natural, but i find it saves me buying all the ingredients ( kelp and lecithin and such) its all in the mix. my 6month old girl has not a problem munching on a cold stick of celery or cold watermelon.

Ok playing devils advocate,by adding kelp in whatever amount ,how can you be sure you are not throwing their thyroid totally out of whack?

that why i buy vets all natural its all premixed to a vets specification. i didnt say make up my own amounts.

I have always been of the belief that the thyroid is something you don't mess with and really how many wild dogs eat seaweed? Surely they get enough iodine from organs...

I'll answer this, cos I feed a pinch of kelp occasionally too.

Why do I feed it? Because many stock animals in this country are marginally deficient in iodine themselves. Subclinical iodine deficiency is very common in sheep and cattle in many areas of this country. Hence, there is a good chance that I'm feeding my dog meat that is marginally low in iodine. Will that have any effect on the health of my dog? Probably not, but who knows. I'd rather be safe than sorry. Hence, I add a pinch of kelp to her meal now and again.

Is feeding iodine dangerous? Depends how much you feed. It can cause thyroid disease if you feed way too much. A pinch now and then added to a raw diet shouldn't cause any issues, even if the meat is naturally quite high in iodine already. Adding teaspoons to every meal is something I'd avoid. The maximum RDA of iodine is actually very high for dogs, but like anything, too much of a good thing can harm.

Like everything else, it's about knowing your area & your local foods. If you live in an area where the soil, and hence the grass and stock, are all rich in iodine, there's probably no need at all to feed an additional source of iodine. It's also about how complicated you're willing to get in trying to construct the "perfect" diet for your dog.

Is adding iodine to a raw diet necessary? Probably not. Is it a good idea? Could be, depending on where you get your meat from.

[kirst_goldens]

ok so i have done the big change and my boy now gets NO kibble!! yay!!

Now i was going to buy his meat in bulk yesterday and i was looking ast the minced chicken frames - it is like 2 bucks for 2 kgs.... but will he get too much bone if he has this as half his meat content??

His daily food is as follows:

Morning:

one neck from mum to shut him up lol

a wing from me

Dinner:

75g minced chicken frames

80g veal mince

VAN

half a teaspoon alfalfa powder

one teaspoon MSM with glucosamine and chrondroitin

2-3 capsules green lipped muscle extact

omega oil - teaspoon

He is 10kg but has a large amount of food at night cause he wont eat it for breakie and needs it all as he has taken to dropping weight in his old age

is this looking ok for now?? if the minced chicken frames are too much then next shopping trip i will just get some steaks or something i have a wholesale meat joint like a 5 min walk from my joint so its cheap as lol

[Staranais]

ok so i have done the big change and my boy now gets NO kibble!! yay!!

Now i was going to buy his meat in bulk yesterday and i was looking ast the minced chicken frames - it is like 2 bucks for 2 kgs.... but will he get too much bone if he has this as half his meat content??

His daily food is as follows:

Morning:

one neck from mum to shut him up lol

a wing from me

Dinner:

75g minced chicken frames

80g veal mince

VAN

half a teaspoon alfalfa powder

one teaspoon MSM with glucosamine and chrondroitin

2-3 capsules green lipped muscle extact

omega oil - teaspoon

He is 10kg but has a large amount of food at night cause he wont eat it for breakie and needs it all as he has taken to dropping weight in his old age

is this looking ok for now?? if the minced chicken frames are too much then next shopping trip i will just get some steaks or something i have a wholesale meat joint like a 5 min walk from my joint so its cheap as lol

Hey, not like I've analysed this or anything, just glanced at it, but please don't forget organs. They're not optional! The liver especially is really important to feed. I'd prefer to see 5% of the diet (by weight) as sheep or beef liver, and 5% as kidney, some green tripe if you can get it would be good too. Organs don't need to be fed every day, e.g you can just feed liver a few times a week to make a total of 5% of the diet.

I'd be happy feeding half the diet (by weight) as chicken bones since he's an adult, as long as he's getting the remainder of his meat portion as red meat, as you are doing.

I'd check the omega oil has vit E added, if not I'd add a cap of vit E every few days.

Otherwise, at first glance, it looks good. Although the best test of that is how well your dog does on it, over the long term.

Edited April 8, 2010 by Staranais

[Niques]

Hello, I was just wondering if I could ask some, perhaps odd, questions. We're not feeding an entirely raw diet but my lab pup's breeder recommends that in a couple of weeks he switch over to having no dry food and only raw bones for his evening meal so I thought this would be the best thread to get answers from.

Our freezer is already jam packed full of frozen packages of chicken mince, wings and bones, etc., so we were wondering, just to figure out logistics, how large are chicken frames? And also lamb necks - what exactly are these? Just the whole neck of the lamb? Can they be cut up into smaller portions? Anyone else using the normal fridge-freezer as opposed to a separate dog freezer? How many chicken frames/lamb neck portions can you easily store?

Guess who underestimated how much freezer space a dog would take up?

[kirst_goldens]

Hey, not like I've analysed this or anything, just glanced at it, but please don't forget organs. They're not optional! The liver especially is really important to feed. I'd prefer to see 5% of the diet (by weight) as sheep or beef liver, and 5% as kidney, some green tripe if you can get it would be good too. Organs don't need to be fed every day, e.g you can just feed liver a few times a week to make a total of 5% of the diet.

I'd be happy feeding half the diet (by weight) as chicken bones since he's an adult, as long as he's getting the remainder of his meat portion as red meat, as you are doing.

I'd check the omega oil has vit E added, if not I'd add a cap of vit E every few days.

Otherwise, at first glance, it looks good. Although the best test of that is how well your dog does on it, over the long term.

Thanks! he does have liver in there as well i must have missed it though? i hvae to mix it with the mince or he wont eat it so cant do an offal meal once a week like i had originally planned! and i thought the bone would be ok he is 15 so would be good for him i think! no constipation so far but he is a garbage gut i can fees him anything and he never gets un upset belly Love him to pieces \

Thanks for ur help

[kirst_goldens]

Hello, I was just wondering if I could ask some, perhaps odd, questions. We're not feeding an entirely raw diet but my lab pup's breeder recommends that in a couple of weeks he switch over to having no dry food and only raw bones for his evening meal so I thought this would be the best thread to get answers from.

Our freezer is already jam packed full of frozen packages of chicken mince, wings and bones, etc., so we were wondering, just to figure out logistics, how large are chicken frames? And also lamb necks - what exactly are these? Just the whole neck of the lamb? Can they be cut up into smaller portions? Anyone else using the normal fridge-freezer as opposed to a separate dog freezer? How many chicken frames/lamb neck portions can you easily store?

Guess who underestimated how much freezer space a dog would take up?

I have a jack russel so he takes up no room at all with his food lol

Frames are the size of the chickens body cause thats what they are lol so it depends on if u get a big chicken or not! id say as a rough guess about 10cms round the belly and about 20cms longish?? Lamb necks can be cut up for a pup but when he is older give them whole though watch his weight as they can be a bit fatty - best advise for freezer stacking is go to a butcher and ask to se what the necks and frames look like so u know what will fit or if u can for a full grown lab.. get a cheap small freezer off ebay??

[Niques]

Frames are the size of the chickens body cause thats what they are lol

Mmm, I had a vague hope that they might somehow shrivel between being alive and making it to my freezer I think you're right. Will have to go harrass a couple of butchers. I get the feeling I'll be spending a lot of time there unless my long-term freezer stacking skills improve immensely.

Thanks

[guest2]

Based on links provided in this thread would just like to clarify a couple of things.Below is what I am considering.

^ 50-60% Raw meaty bones (RMBs). chicken, lamb, pork, beef, fish, rabbit, venison, etc.

^ 10-15% Meats of the same animals

^ 10-15% Organ meats (also called 'offal')

^ Fish oils

My questions are can I mix minced chicken frames with 10-15% of red meat mince as I think a variety of different types of meat would perhaps make a more balanced diet?

Would it be better to alternate between minced chicken frames and a similar red meat mix,if so what type of mince should I be looking for.

Alternately would anyone here recommend a different type recipe if so what and what ratios would you use?

Cheers Tom

No one has any input on this?

[kirst_goldens]

Frames are the size of the chickens body cause thats what they are lol

Mmm, I had a vague hope that they might somehow shrivel between being alive and making it to my freezer I think you're right. Will have to go harrass a couple of butchers. I get the feeling I'll be spending a lot of time there unless my long-term freezer stacking skills improve immensely.

Thanks

haha they are a little smaller of course less the feathers and all that but yeh roughly that size

[SBT101]

quest2, hopefully someone with more knowledge on your raw diet plan.

I have heard that pork is not good for dogs.

I dont know about your ratios but mine are:

40% RMB (minced chicken carcusses, roo bones, chicken necks, lamb necks,)

40% Muscle meat ( I feed 2 parts donkey, 1 part goat. Also a heart meal every now and then)

10% Offal mix

10% vegie slops ( with added suppliments: cod liver oil, alfalfa, kelp, rosehip)

They also get sardines as a morning meal every now and then.

I can say that they it took me alot of trial and error to get it right, but they hvae never looked better

Edited April 10, 2010 by SBT101

[guest2]

quest2, hopefully someone with more knowledge on your raw diet plan.

I have heard that pork is not good for dogs.

I dont know about your ratios but mine are:

40% RMB (minced chicken carcusses, roo bones, chicken necks, lamb necks,)

40% Muscle meat ( I feed 2 parts donkey, 1 part goat. Also a heart meal every now and then)

10% Offal mix

10% vegie slops ( with added suppliments: cod liver oil, alfalfa, kelp, rosehip)

They also get sardines as a morning meal every now and then.

I can say that they it took me alot of trial and error to get it right, but they hvae never looked better

Thank you for taking the time to reply,much appreciated.

With a new pup coming home soon I really want to make sure I get it right as I don't want to jeopardise his health with an incorrect/unbalanced diet.The donkey and goat meat would be difficult for me to source but I am sure I would be able to find a suitable alternative.Once again thanks for taking the time and the info.

Tom

[Jed]

i find using a bit of vets all natural complete mix in with whatever raw meat i am using usually chicken or blade steak,but i also add their vegies and whatever leftover's i have in with it. i dont live by vets all natural, but i find it saves me buying all the ingredients ( kelp and lecithin and such) its all in the mix. my 6month old girl has not a problem munching on a cold stick of celery or cold watermelon.

Ok playing devils advocate,by adding kelp in whatever amount ,how can you be sure you are not throwing their thyroid totally out of whack?

that why i buy vets all natural its all premixed to a vets specification. i didnt say make up my own amounts.

I have always been of the belief that the thyroid is something you don't mess with and really how many wild dogs eat seaweed? Surely they get enough iodine from organs...

geez i was just using those two ingredients of examples of whats in the mix. i didnt say i force feed the dogs seeweed no wonder people dont post on this forum they get executed. if id said there was rolled oats in it, i would have been in trouble for that as well. you feed your dog what you want and ill feed mine. im sure the amount my lot eat of kelp, they would be in more danger from the toxins coming out of a cars exhaust when we go for a walk. I'm not qualified to give an opinion on it, i leave the trust in the professionals, but my breeder has an honours degree in science majoring in zoology, and she gives her dogs vets all natural, so if it was going to damage the dogs in any way we wouldnt be feeding them that.

WOW talk about sensitive. I was questioning it because it is NOT needed. Yep you feed what you want to and your dog can get a whole load of additives it does'nt need and you can possibly screw with it's system. I am NOT bashing you but if you go and google information about feeding kelp to dogs and the pros and cons then that is my intention,not to upset you. Make sure to look for the cons too....this forum is all about sharing information and debating the postives AND negatives of things. Sorry but we are not here to agree with each other all the time,how damn boring would that be!

Oh and kelp IS seaweed . Oats won't make your dog psychotic but kelp can!

Execution is illegal in Australia as far as I know. So don't worry keep posting you are safe.

Feeding a lot of the cabbage family, can depress the thyroid gland.

Kelp, I believe, in overdose can cause the thyroid gland to shut down, slowing down the dog's metabolism.

However, it contains trace amounts of iodine, zinc, cobalt, etc. Iodine is also found in dairy and seafood.

Dogs need iodine, and feeding kelp is a good way to provide that, as long as it is not overdone. I believe Billinghurst recommends 1 kelp tab a day? I give mine powdered kelp - a sprinkle - and I haven't had any problems, so obviously what I am giving them is about right.

Rolled oats, great stuff!! Vits E and B, 8% fat, 15% protein, iron, potassium, zinc, manganese. Nice now and again, and great for bringing in the milk for nursing mums, very palatable, and well accepted. Relished with milk, honey and an egg, when nothing else is acceptable.

[SBT101]

Mine also get rolled oats as well.

Edited April 13, 2010 by SBT101