Raw/natural Chitchat

[wylie]

Tapeworms only come from fleas!

[tomas]

Tapeworms only come from fleas!

I thought exactly that.

Do your dogs go out anywhere that they may have picked up an egg though? Or been near dogs that have fleas? I sincerely doubt it could come from offal,as stated if you feed human offal you are fine.

[oonga]

i always freeze offal can't remember why now

well apart from making it last longer

But i was just thinking would freezing the offal also kill of the vitamin E???

[tomas]

But i was just thinking would freezing the offal also kill of the vitamin E???

No it will be fine

[oonga]

Tomas

[Tru Borders]

I knew there was a reason I shouldn't have posted that question!!!

Thanks for the clarification guys! yes, a little red faced now. I did so much research on the freakin tapeworm but I forgot to search where they pick it up from. I guess when the Vet mentioned Offal my mind had made its decision

Thanks all.

ETA - Tomas, can you give me the type of Muscle meat you feed so I can add it to the list please? I just want to be specific so the newbies like me know exactly what to look for.

TIA

Edited August 26, 2009 by huskyheaven

[First Time Puppy Owner]

Ok question re vit E and Zinc.

Re Zinc - I am feeding chicken, lamb and roo - should I suppliment with zinc tabs once or twice a week as I am not feeding beef? (want to see if after 4 mths of feeding no beef then feeding beef will cause an allergic reaction).

Wow this thread is doing my head in.. so much to take in.

Just wondering why beef would cause an allergic reaction?

This is going to sound stupid, but would you say that purchasing beef at different butchers may cause your dog to have an allergic reaction? or is beef just beef? I'm just curious, as my dog is going through some skin allergy issues, which I have posted up. Some have advise to take him off red meat for awhile. I believe that this allergy is caused by the wandering jew weeds, however thinking back now, I also purchased mince beef from a different butcher...

Any meat can cause an allergic reaction. Do you have cause to think beef is an issue for your dog? Also some meat can be enhanced,with preservative,which is often soy or also sodium of some kind. That is most likely what would cause a reaction.

My guys do WAY better on meat from large ungulates than they do from chicken. On chicken they get a dry coat and dandruff.I would now feed that as a last resort if I can't find anything reasonably priced,which is'nt often.

People feed chicken cos it is cheap. I used to too years ago but once I shopped around I have been able to feed 5 dogs,who are VERY active and eat a heck of a lot for less than I could on a large bag of kibble a week.

Tomas - I am wanting continue the trial regarding beef as on occassions I have notice Benson be itchier after eating a beef brisket bone. So how much is zinc should I give a dog that is approx 38 kgs please?

Edited August 27, 2009 by First Time Puppy Owner

[MissLotus]

Hello

Once again, many thanks for starting this thread and everyone's input, I have learnt quite a lot up until page 17 and I couldn't go any longer.. I was hurting my brain and just couldn't function at work (Yes, it has taken me 3 days to catch up, reading bits and pieces on and off, beauty about having the internet at work). I'm even at my desk with a notepad taking notes on the benefits of food that everyone has mentioned.

I'm going to be honest and say I have no idea how you all calculate these ration / portions / mg / intakes etc. Up until now, I was feeding both dogs a mix of red meat and chicken necks/frames and occasionally some offals and egg. So I think I have been depriving my furkids (as someone has mentioned on this thread ) on a few essential nutrients.

I have Mumble who is a maltese x and weighs 8k - 2 yr old. He is currently suffering from a skin allergy (if you go to my thread wandering jew, you can see a lovely picture of his rash) which I'm frantically trying to get to the root of this problem. So I am currently feeding him just chicken and fish to see if it helps with his rash. Then I have Annie - CKC, who is 6 month old pup and weighs around 3.4kilos.

This will be the diet that I will put them on after reading this thread. Just wondering if I am missing out on anything. Mumble dinner is normally about 200-250g - is that enough? He is not an active dog at all.. and I don't think Annie will be either, as she has a thing with trying to snuggle as close to you as possible or even jump on your lap, even if it means killing herself.

7 days a week, it's going to be 60% red meat (either beef or lamb and sometimes pork, however the Vet advise against pork because of the high fat content, is this true) 40% bones - neck, wings, chicken frames/carcass. In this basic mix, I am going to throw in 30% mush up veggies, 3 times a week, add a small portion of offal (liver, heart, kidney) and if Mumble reacts well to the fish and it helps his allergy, I may lower the % of meat to 30% and make up the other 30% with fish/can tuna, or I can vary between red meat and fish to give them a variety. Each Sunday, i will give them a teaspoon of All-Bran into their meal for fibre (as advise by the vet ) and maybe a crack egg once or twice a month.

Will also give them a tablespoon of natural yoghurt maybe once every two weeks. Obviously if I am adding egg or yoghurt or something into their dinner, I will reduce the meat or bone content so that it is sitting at roughly 200g for their meals.

In the morning, I just give both dogs a handful of dry puppy food (Annie more because she is still growing) to keep them entertained. How does that sound? I've pretty much just eyeball everything as I just don't get the ratio part. hehe. I don't feed the furkids any meaty bones as Mumble has a thing with food guarding high value food. Forgot about the last night when I feed him tuna last night and boy oh boy was he difficult when I tried to wipe his mouth. Silly dog tried to bite my fingers off. (getting a behaviorist in soon to hopefully fix the issue), so I don't want to feed one dog one thing and not the other.

Another question is - what is the Van diet?

Sorry for butting into an existing conversation (if I have)

Edited August 27, 2009 by MissLotus

[GSD's 4EVER]

Each Sunday, i will give them a teaspoon of All-Bran into their meal for fibre (as advise by the vet ) and maybe a crack egg once or twice a month.

I give Mish (nearly 12) Psyllium Husks to assist with extra fibre, so you might want to check it out as an alternative to All-Bran.

[tomas]

ETA - Tomas, can you give me the type of Muscle meat you feed so I can add it to the list please? I just want to be specific so the newbies like me know exactly what to look for.

TIA

Do you mean? Though I will probably miss something.

Beef meat ,heart,beef tripe,tongue,cheek

Chicken meat,gizzards,heart

Pork meat,pork heart

Venison meat,venison heart

Lamb meat,lamb heart,lamb tripe

Horse meat

[tomas]

Hello

Once again, many thanks for starting this thread and everyone's input, I have learnt quite a lot up until page 17 and I couldn't go any longer.. I was hurting my brain and just couldn't function at work (Yes, it has taken me 3 days to catch up, reading bits and pieces on and off, beauty about having the internet at work). I'm even at my desk with a notepad taking notes on the benefits of food that everyone has mentioned.

I'm going to be honest and say I have no idea how you all calculate these ration / portions / mg / intakes etc. Up until now, I was feeding both dogs a mix of red meat and chicken necks/frames and occasionally some offals and egg. So I think I have been depriving my furkids (as someone has mentioned on this thread ) on a few essential nutrients.

I have Mumble who is a maltese x and weighs 8k - 2 yr old. He is currently suffering from a skin allergy (if you go to my thread wandering jew, you can see a lovely picture of his rash) which I'm frantically trying to get to the root of this problem. So I am currently feeding him just chicken and fish to see if it helps with his rash. Then I have Annie - CKC, who is 6 month old pup and weighs around 3.4kilos.

This will be the diet that I will put them on after reading this thread. Just wondering if I am missing out on anything. Mumble dinner is normally about 200-250g - is that enough? He is not an active dog at all.. and I don't think Annie will be either, as she has a thing with trying to snuggle as close to you as possible or even jump on your lap, even if it means killing herself.

7 days a week, it's going to be 60% red meat (either beef or lamb and sometimes pork, however the Vet advise against pork because of the high fat content, is this true) 40% bones - neck, wings, chicken frames/carcass. In this basic mix, I am going to throw in 30% mush up veggies, 3 times a week, add a small portion of offal (liver, heart, kidney) and if Mumble reacts well to the fish and it helps his allergy, I may lower the % of meat to 30% and make up the other 30% with fish/can tuna, or I can vary between red meat and fish to give them a variety. Each Sunday, i will give them a teaspoon of All-Bran into their meal for fibre (as advise by the vet ) and maybe a crack egg once or twice a month.

Will also give them a tablespoon of natural yoghurt maybe once every two weeks. Obviously if I am adding egg or yoghurt or something into their dinner, I will reduce the meat or bone content so that it is sitting at roughly 200g for their meals.

In the morning, I just give both dogs a handful of dry puppy food (Annie more because she is still growing) to keep them entertained. How does that sound? I've pretty much just eyeball everything as I just don't get the ratio part. hehe. I don't feed the furkids any meaty bones as Mumble has a thing with food guarding high value food. Forgot about the last night when I feed him tuna last night and boy oh boy was he difficult when I tried to wipe his mouth. Silly dog tried to bite my fingers off. (getting a behaviorist in soon to hopefully fix the issue), so I don't want to feed one dog one thing and not the other.

Another question is - what is the Van diet?

Sorry for butting into an existing conversation (if I have)

Start with 2 % of the dogs weight eg. Mumble is 8kgs so start with 160g if he gets skinny increase it,if he gets fat decrease it,Annie at 3.4 kgs but a puppy I would start at 5% and you can go up or down from there,as much as 10% sometimes. I have Vizslas and at 6 months they eat 8-10% a day! So she would get 170g at 5% a day,gee that seems like nothing!!!! I would go 200g a day then at least. Are they fat or skinny though?

Feed pork ,wondrous meat,my guys do so well on it,remember without carbs our dogs get their energy from fat,so

I would nix the yoghurt and if you want a probitic use raw green tripe ,if you cannot find that I would use a probiotic capsule,maybe 1/2 each? MUCH better and you are'nt feeding dairy this way. I always say,no animal other than a human eats dairy after weaning. Unless when hunting, your dog would down a pregnant deer and rip out her mammaries! wolves do that but it is'nt often,I have looked at studies. Somtimes they would kill a pregnant deer and just eat the developing fawn and leave EVERYTHING else!

The rest sounds o.k,though I never feed kibble so that would'nt be something I would do. Up to you,same with the all bran or psyllium. My guys get nothing like that and all have perfect poops! Not too hard or soft,but if they strain I feed a boneless meal the next day or give more liver or kidney or offal. Usually loosens stool.

One thing you never mentioned is fish oil. Find a good human fish oil cap and your guys would get...

For a "maintenance dose", consider feeding 1(one) 300mg DHA+EPA combined total capsule per 30 (thirty) pounds of dog.

--10lb dog would get 1 capsule every other day.

--30lb dog would get 1 capsule a day.

For a "therapeutic" dose (you're addressing a health issue of some sort), consider feeding 1 (one) 300mg DHA+EPA combined total capsule per 10 (ten) pounds of dog.

--10lb dog would get 1 capsule a day.

--30lb dog would get 3 capsules a day.

Personally I think you will solve your skin issues when you get rid of the dairy,kibble etc and include a good source of Omega 3. Fish is fine but at least with a capsule you KNOW how much of the all important Omega 3 in there!

I am glad you are moving a little way away from chicken,most chicken is way out of whack with Omega 6 and also enhanced with salts and phosphates! My guys coats crap out on chicken if it is anymore than once in a blue moon.

I feed eggs every secnd day,great for a whole bunch of nutrients,so maybe 1/2 an egg each every second day for your guys?

Now I think you are good to go

[tomas]

Another question is - what is the Van diet?

Sorry for butting into an existing conversation (if I have)

Is'nt the Van diet a human dietary plan to lower cholesterol?

If people stopped eating refined carbs,drinking too much and smoking then they would'nt need a whacky plan like that.

O.K I will get off my soapbox

[Tru Borders]

Miss Lotus, I'm with you on being a little confused, but I just use my own instinct and gut feelings on feeding. That being said, I dont give them cocoa pops for breaky and popcorn after tea while we are watching a movie!!

I basically feed Chicken necks or Maryland twice a week, red RMB 3-4 times a week and Barf once or twice. Give or take mince with egg and Veg, sardines, etc.

The advice regarding weights and measurements, ratio's and percentages is fantastic! Some of the DOL'ers in here have got their shit down pat!!

But ...... I dont believe, IMO, that for my dogs it is all necessary. I think it is an absolute science and peeps who feed this and that to supplement this and that are doing what is best for their animals. But you need to do what is best for your animals.

Another example is I give my kids a fish oil tablet, evening primrose tablet and a Flaxseed tablet (vita E) with their dinner. I have my reasons why I do this, as does everyone else who feeds all kinds of crazy things to their dogs!!

Dont try to give everything that you have read in here to your Dogs. You would never have time to leave the house otherwise!

Dont be disheartened. Continue to read the thread, take on board the things you find interesting that might be good for your dogs and anything you dont agree with or that hurts the brain, leave it on the pages.

Now, back to your post, I started rambling.

If you are trying to get allergies under control, should you maybe feed less variety so you can pick up when the irritation is at its worst based on whats fed? Thats if it is a food allergy of course.

Asher suffered badly from an allergy that we think began from his contact to the Wandering Jew. It runs down our driveway and he would jump in it and roll around at the end of our walks. I didnt realise at the time...silly me!!

He went onto cortisone and it helped so so much, the incessant scratching and biting stopped within 30 hours, but of course, after the course was finished, it came back again. We changed diet to raw after that and he has been so good since. He suffers from a little bit of Dermatitis but its nothing compared to what he went through.

I give him the Evening Primrose Tablet as it is good for skin irritations.

If you feed a Raw diet, why are you still giving dry food? It could be your reason for the allergies. All those grains and bits and pieces. I would say get rid of the kibble all together.... see how you go after that.

VAN stands for Vets All Natural.

Mumble is the best name ever!!!!!!!! OMG so freakin funny and cute!!!

[MissLotus]

Are they fat or skinny though?

Myself and the vet think both dogs are the perfect size. You cannot see their ribs but you can feel them with a layer of fat.

Feed pork ,wondrous meat,my guys do so well on it,remember without carbs our dogs get their energy from fat,so

I would nix the yoghurt and if you want a probitic use raw green tripe ,if you cannot find that I would use a probiotic capsule,maybe 1/2 each? MUCH better and you are'nt feeding dairy this way.

Where can you get probiotic capsules and are we talking about human capsules? I've never feed them yogurt up until yesterday. I was reading somewhere that yogurt was good for the dogs insides, so I'd figured there was no harm in trying. I think I am going to have the same issues as everyone else with green tripe.

One thing you never mentioned is fish oil. Find a good human fish oil cap and your guys would get...

Personally I think you will solve your skin issues when you get rid of the dairy,kibble etc and include a good source of Omega 3. Fish is fine but at least with a capsule you KNOW how much of the all important Omega 3 in there!

I'd figured if I was feeding my dogs fish, would there be a need to actually feed them fish oil? what if i OD my dogs on omega 3? and if I do feed them fish oil, do I cut the capsule up and squirt the liquid into their meals?

I can certainly up the anti with half an egg every second day. What is the benefit of giving them the egg shells? As for the kibbles, it's mainly for the convenience in the morning, as I'm up at 7 and then out of the door in 15. Mumble never use to get any sort of breakfast, only just snacks, however I figured there is no harm in feeding him scattered breakfast in the morning, while I'm still feeding Annie's breakfast

I'm actually looking forward to using my food processor for the first time since owning one.

[MissLotus]

If you are trying to get allergies under control, should you maybe feed less variety so you can pick up when the irritation is at its worst based on whats fed? Thats if it is a food allergy of course.

Asher suffered badly from an allergy that we think began from his contact to the Wandering Jew. It runs down our driveway and he would jump in it and roll around at the end of our walks. I didnt realise at the time...silly me!!

He went onto cortisone and it helped so so much, the incessant scratching and biting stopped within 30 hours, but of course, after the course was finished, it came back again. We changed diet to raw after that and he has been so good since. He suffers from a little bit of Dermatitis but its nothing compared to what he went through.

I give him the Evening Primrose Tablet as it is good for skin irritations.

If you feed a Raw diet, why are you still giving dry food? It could be your reason for the allergies. All those grains and bits and pieces. I would say get rid of the kibble all together.... see how you go after that.

VAN stands for Vets All Natural.

Mumble is the best name ever!!!!!!!! OMG so freakin funny and cute!!!

I get the same reaction from anyone that hears that name "Mumble" what's worst is when they see him, very characteristic hehee Mumble actually came from the cartoon "Happy Feet" just never had the heart to changed the name when we adopted him from a friend of ours at 8 weeks.

Huskyheaven, how long was it until Asher fully recovered from the rash? I've been back and forth to the vet for the last 1.5 months, however it wasn't until 2 weeks ago i'd realize we had the jews growing in his area. He is also on cortisone (which i think is getting him grump) and is also coned to stop him from irritating his rash even more.

I might try the Primrose Tablet - i take it we are talking about human tablets?

Mumble was only on one meal a day until we got Annie 3 months ago, and I guess it was a convenient thing to also give him some dry food in the morning. It's only a small handful scattered in his area. The brand is Optimum... Now that I am thinking of it, could this also cause his skin allergy? His never had an issue with this dry food. If it's not kibbles, then I would scatter some treats.

I guess this is why I am taking a huge interest i this thread as I would like my furkids to be in tiptop shape, and Mumble just seems to suffer from all sorts of problems . But yes, I wont be dramatically changing Mumble's diet at the moment, just chicken and fish until his allergy clears up and I may also take your advice and get rid of the kibbles in the morning.

But no harm in getting Annie started on this new whiz bang diet

[Tru Borders]

I've been trying to figure where I knew the name from!! So cute!

Asher was on the Cortisone for about 3 weeks the first time. It had an effect within 30 hours. Effect meaning he wasnt biting and scratching the area every minute. It was non stop, poor bugger. When the dosage finished, he was ok for about a 4 days but then it started again.

The 2nd dose was about 2 weeks worth. During this time we were trying to move to full BARF but I still had a bit of kibble as part of it. I finally got rid of the Kibble and over the next 3 months or so the irritation, skin redness (almost raw and hairless patches) and biting was pretty much gone.

Dry food has so much stuff in it that my dogs dont need. All the cereals, wheat and corn, preservatives, colourings ..... yucko.

Here's a bit of info, just a short one, which sums up why I no longer feed kibble. Plus my furries do so fabulously on Barf.

http://www.wolfweb.com.au/acd/badingredients.htm

Evening Primrose Human style! The Fish caps and Flaxseed Caps I give are all human ones aswell (bahahhah sounds funny human ones). I just drop them in their food and the kids eat em straight up. I did the whole put a hole in it and squeeze (which you might have to do to begin with) but I got more on me than in the food!!!

I say kick the Kibble habit Miss Lotus I promise Mumble will improve in many ways and hopefully have some success with his allergy.

[Diva]

I would nix the yoghurt and if you want a probitic use raw green tripe ,if you cannot find that I would use a probiotic capsule,maybe 1/2 each?

You New Zealanders are just taunting us with the green tripe recommendations, just can't get it here. I have bought some of the Ziwipeak canned tripe - doubt it is as good as the fresh variety but the dogs do love it, and they just won't touch most canned food.

[tomas]

I would nix the yoghurt and if you want a probitic use raw green tripe ,if you cannot find that I would use a probiotic capsule,maybe 1/2 each?

You New Zealanders are just taunting us with the green tripe recommendations, just can't get it here. I have bought some of the Ziwipeak canned tripe - doubt it is as good as the fresh variety but the dogs do love it, and they just won't touch most canned food.

Sorry and I have over 10kgs in my freezer of beef and lamb tripe and it's from 3 different sources who use different parts of the lining to make their tripe.

I have used the Ziwi tripe on occasion,always have a few cans of that and straight ziwi as well as freeze dried K9,cos you never know what may happen and they still need to eat!

[tomas]

Are they fat or skinny though?

Myself and the vet think both dogs are the perfect size. You cannot see their ribs but you can feel them with a layer of fat.

So then you can keep the amounts the same and just go for the variances you mentioned you would try.

Where can you get probiotic capsules and are we talking about human capsules? I've never feed them yogurt up until yesterday. I was reading somewhere that yogurt was good for the dogs insides, so I'd figured there was no harm in trying. I think I am going to have the same issues as everyone else with green tripe.

Yes human probiotic you get from the fridge in the chemist. I gave you MY reasons why I would not feed yoghurt.

I'd figured if I was feeding my dogs fish, would there be a need to actually feed them fish oil? What if i OD my dogs on omega 3? and if I do feed them fish oil, do I cut the capsule up and squirt the liquid into their meals?

You would be hard pressed to OD them on Omega 3 and again I gave you 'safe' guidelines to work with Also as mentioned we all have different ideas about feeding but EPO is not species appropriate in my book,it is of plant origin and you have 2 little carnivores. So save your money and buy good quality fish oil. I give the fish oil as insurance for it's anti inflammatory properties and because one of mine will not eat fish no way no how!

I can certainly up the anti with half an egg every second day. What is the benefit of giving them the egg shells? As for the kibbles, it's mainly for the convenience in the morning, as I'm up at 7 and then out of the door in 15. Mumble never use to get any sort of breakfast, only just snacks, however I figured there is no harm in feeding him scattered breakfast in the morning, while I'm still feeding Annie's breakfast

Shells just have the calcium but you certainly do not need to feed them. No biggie.

I'm actually looking forward to using my food processor for the first time since owning one.

Edited August 27, 2009 by tomas

[Staranais]

You would be hard pressed to OD them on Omega 3 and again I gave you 'safe' guidelines to work with Also as mentioned we all have different ideas about feeding but EPO is not species appropriate in my book,it is of plant origin and you have 2 little carnivores. So save your money and buy good quality fish oil. I give the fish oil as insurance for it's anti inflammatory properties and because one of mine will not eat fish no way no how!

We agree on the species appropriateness of that. EPO contains mostly the omega 3 known as ALA, we mammals need to change this to the omega 3 fatty acids DHA and EPA to use it in our bodies. We humans make that conversion quite inefficiently, dogs (and cats) are even more inefficient at converting ALA to EPA. So it's best to feed fish oil, which already contains the EPA that they need. I don't think EPO hurts, it just isn't a complete substitute for fish body oil for dogs and cats.

Of course, you could argue that most wolves probably don't have access to fish oil, or even access to oily fish, all that often. But it's one of these things (like probiotics) that seem to enhance the health of dogs regardless of whether their ancestors ate it, so I think it's worth giving.

Remember to supplement with E if you use lots of fish oil (or get the fish oil with E already included).

pg 86 may be a little geeky for most, but has a nice diagram of how the various dietary omega acids metabolise into each other for those who are into that sort of thing:

http://books.google.com/books?id=aqeCwxbRW...epa&f=false

Edited August 27, 2009 by Staranais