Raw/natural Chitchat

[Oscar (AmBull)]

Hi, I am looking to introduce offal into my Amstaff's diet. He is 5 1/2 months old now and is getting:

Breakfast: Royal Canin Maxi Puppy Dry Food

Lunch: Frozen Roo Tail, Chicken Carcuss, or fresh chicken wings and legs.

Dinner: Roo, Chicken or Beef mince, he isn't keen on the chicken mince so probably finish with that once it is all gone.

I have only just found the offal section at woolies and bought a whole heap of Lamb and beef kidney, lamb heart. I tried to give him them that night but he was not happy. He picked up the heart and dropped it fairluy soon and wouldn't even touch the kidney. What I want to know is how do I introduce this stuff?

Also looking to start giving beef bones, what kind should I get? My butcher does a bag of beef bones for $2 but I don't know what they are. My dad gets them for his dogs, but I don't know my bones very well so not sure of the cut.

[GSD's 4EVER]

Hi, I am looking to introduce offal into my Amstaff's diet. He is 5 1/2 months old now and is getting:

Breakfast: Royal Canin Maxi Puppy Dry Food

Lunch: Frozen Roo Tail, Chicken Carcuss, or fresh chicken wings and legs.

Dinner: Roo, Chicken or Beef mince, he isn't keen on the chicken mince so probably finish with that once it is all gone.

I have only just found the offal section at woolies and bought a whole heap of Lamb and beef kidney, lamb heart. I tried to give him them that night but he was not happy. He picked up the heart and dropped it fairluy soon and wouldn't even touch the kidney. What I want to know is how do I introduce this stuff?

Also looking to start giving beef bones, what kind should I get? My butcher does a bag of beef bones for $2 but I don't know what they are. My dad gets them for his dogs, but I don't know my bones very well so not sure of the cut.

If you are close to a market like the one in central Adelaide, you can get your offal cheaper than the supermarket. You can freeze offal.

You introduce the offal slowly in some cases. For some dogs it's an "acquired taste", so they may go "Yuck, what's that crap ?" when you try & give them too much at once. Some people cut the offal into chunk sized pieces or even use their blender. Of course you can't do this with bones .... stick with it. It will work out cheaper in the end & be more healthy for your dog. Remember ... there are no can openers in the wild

[tomas]

Hi, I am looking to introduce offal into my Amstaff's diet. He is 5 1/2 months old now and is getting:

Breakfast: Royal Canin Maxi Puppy Dry Food

Lunch: Frozen Roo Tail, Chicken Carcuss, or fresh chicken wings and legs.

Dinner: Roo, Chicken or Beef mince, he isn't keen on the chicken mince so probably finish with that once it is all gone.

I have only just found the offal section at woolies and bought a whole heap of Lamb and beef kidney, lamb heart. I tried to give him them that night but he was not happy. He picked up the heart and dropped it fairluy soon and wouldn't even touch the kidney. What I want to know is how do I introduce this stuff?

Also looking to start giving beef bones, what kind should I get? My butcher does a bag of beef bones for $2 but I don't know what they are. My dad gets them for his dogs, but I don't know my bones very well so not sure of the cut.

I would stay away from all beef bones,other than beef ribs,most beef bones are teeth wreckers,lamb and chicken bones are softest.

Also heart is a meaty meat not offal,I call offal organ meat,liver,kidney,sex organs,lung,spleen,pancreas,brain etc etc.

Here is how I feed my 5 Hungarian Vizslas.

80% meat,10% edible bone,10 offal,of which 5 % is liver. That's it. These 5 dogs run 2-3 hours a day and I can keep weight on them,fantastic energy and lustrous coats,they are all well muscled and not excess fat.

They get NO veggies or any other sugar carb,their only supplement is fish oil,which includes Vit E in the capsule as without it it goes rancid in the body,same applies to humans. I also feel sugar as in any carb feeds nasty bugs in dogs,cancer and joint issues etc etc.

If you buy the cheap generic fish oil IMO you are just wasting your money.

A few of us have discussed giving veggies or other carbs on here before,I just do not feel they are species appropriate ,others do. It's up to you to feed what you think is best and do your homework.

Advice I can give is I would join the rewfeeding and rawchat lists on yahooGroups and learn from there....

[Tiggy]

Which fish oil comes with the added vitamin E?

[Gayle.]

I cut the offal up into small pieces (easiest done when it's half frozen) and mix it with mince, eggs, tinned fish, mashed pumpkin or sweet potato, cooked rice, grated carrot and green veges etc, and the dogs don't even realise it's good for them. They get this mixture about 3-4 meals a week. The rest of their meals are raw meaty bones from various animals.

If the offal chunks are too big, Dusty very delicately picks them out and lays them down next to her bowl. The easiest way is to cut them small is to take a partially frozen block of offal, slice it very thinly then chop the slices into strips. By the time it's thawed, it's just about minced and she can't separate it from the mince.

[yellowgirl]

Hi all . Sounds like everyone's having fun slicing, dicing, mashing, mincing and mixing!

Anyone else notice that the more you look into it, the more research you do and the more feeding forums you join... the more your brain starts to feel like the minced offal that you're making for your dog?? I don't know how or why I end up making it so complicated for myself, I often feel that there could be a vital piece of information I might be missing ;)

Anyhoo.... This is what I'm currently mixing up... :p

1kg minced chicken frames

1kg minced raw meat (turkey, beef, lamb, heart, etc)

1kg minced raw fresh veggies (carrot, pumpkin - including seeds, broccoli, etc)

3 eggs -whole, raw, including shell (minced)

1/2 bunch fresh parsley

200g liver

200g other organ (brain, lung, kidney, etc)

250g sardines

200g salmon

1 cup rolled oats

level dessertspoon granulated garlic

tablespoon olive oil wheatgerm oil

We're still practising with various bones, but I've included the minced chicken frames for the time being to make sure they're getting enough calcium.

I'm now using fresh veggies rather than the mixed frozen pack so I can choose the variety of veggies for each batch. Speaking of which... does anyone know an easy way to remove the skin from a raw pumpkin??

I don't know about everyone else, but I love getting my hands into the mix and blending it all together, and seeing all the nutritious goodies folding over each other. I find it very relaxing and therapeutic

ETA- added wheatgerm oil and pumpkin seeds

Edited August 25, 2009 by yellowgirl

[OSoSwift]

Can you put your raw vegies through a vegetable juicer and mix the pulp and juice back together and feed that?

[Gayle.]

does anyone know an easy way to remove the skin from a raw pumpkin??

I don't remove it. I cut into chunks with the skin on, cook in the microwave until very soft, then mash and mix with the rest of the brew. The skin just breaks up into small pieces and gets mixed in too, along with the seeds.

[GSD's 4EVER]

does anyone know an easy way to remove the skin from a raw pumpkin??

I don't remove it. I cut into chunks with the skin on, cook in the microwave until very soft, then mash and mix with the rest of the brew. The skin just breaks up into small pieces and gets mixed in too, along with the seeds.

I don't give my dogs anything cooked. I pop all the vegies into the food processor, pumpkin skin & seeds included & grind it up.

[TYLER23]

Morning All, What a wonderful and informative thread!

We pickup our Staffordshire Bull Terrier shortly and just have a few questions regarding feeding. The breeder has the pups on a dry and mince diet which we'd like to change to a dry and raw diet with the intention of going fully raw by 12 months of age.

Questions:

1. Is 2.5% of adult body weight the correct amount to feed from day dot? Say and adult SBT is 15kg, so that's 375g per day. 110g for a cup of dry and 265g raw?

2. In terms of raw foods, our list includes, lamb flap, brisket bones, chicken carcass, chicken wings & necks, chicken maryland, turkey wings, lamb liver, lamb kidney & hearts minced, roo mince and pig trotters. Any important bits we've missed?

3. Obviously not all of these foods are suitable for a young pup. Should we just stick to the softer meats like chicken wings, necks and carcasses initially?

4. At what age should we introduce the harder boney meats?

5. We don't intend to spend a lot of time measuring quantities, calories, and nutrient intake, so is it safe to just give a meaty meal (eg. chicken maryland or mince) for brekky and a meaty bone for dinner?

6. We also intend to add sardines, yoghurt, and eggs. Should these be included from day dot? raw or boiled eggs?

7. Should we still apply the 15 minute feeding rule even when the pup is say 6 months+? Does that mean we take away a big juicy meaty bone after 15 minutes or let him have it for as long as he wants?

Thanks in advance.

[Staranais]

I've only answered some.

1. Is 2.5% of adult body weight the correct amount to feed from day dot? Say and adult SBT is 15kg, so that's 375g per day. 110g for a cup of dry and 265g raw?

That formula works OK for raw diets, but doesn't work for dry commercial foods. If you want to feed half raw and half kibble, then what you'll want to do is look at the side of your kibble packet and feed half what they recommend. And then feed 1 - 1.5% of your dog's adult bodyweight in raw.

Watch your pup to ensure he's not getting too fat, growing too fast, or getting too skinny, and adjust your diet accordingly.

2. In terms of raw foods, our list includes, lamb flap, brisket bones, chicken carcass, chicken wings & necks, chicken maryland, turkey wings, lamb liver, lamb kidney & hearts minced, roo mince and pig trotters. Any important bits we've missed?

I'd add fish oil capsules, & a pinch of kelp once a week. Canned or fresh fish can be a nice addition, as can raw eggs or natural yoghurt. I like to add some oats and some veges, but most dogs seem to do fine without those and some people prefer not to feed them. If you feed lots of fish or lots of fish oil, consider adding a vitamin E capsule once a week. Green tripe is great if you can get it.

Of course, the proportions you feed these things in are as important as which ingredients you choose.

Remember growing pups need lots of zinc and iron, so if most of your RMB are chicken, then most of your non-RMB meat should be red meat.

5. We don't intend to spend a lot of time measuring quantities, calories, and nutrient intake, so is it safe to just give a meaty meal (eg. chicken maryland or mince) for brekky and a meaty bone for dinner?

I personally wouldn't just wing it, not for a growing pup. You'll probably get away with doing what you describe (especially since you're feeding half commercial which will tend to smooth out any deficiencies or excesses in the raw diet) but if it were me, I'd at least make up a rough diet plan to stick to every week, to ensure pup's getting about the right amount of everything over the week.

6. We also intend to add sardines, yoghurt, and eggs. Should these be included from day dot? raw or boiled eggs?

I'd start adding ingredients to his current mince gradually, one new ingredient every few days. That way if he gets the runs, you can see what it is that has disagreed with him. Raw or boiled eggs are both fine. Some people also grind and feed the shells, which is good too.

7. Should we still apply the 15 minute feeding rule even when the pup is say 6 months+? Does that mean we take away a big juicy meaty bone after 15 minutes or let him have it for as long as he wants?

I wouldn't take a bone away after 15 min if the dog is still actively engaged in eating it. If he wanders off and leaves the meal, yes, I'd remove it.

Edited August 24, 2009 by Staranais

[tomas]

Which fish oil comes with the added vitamin E?

I use the Coromega sachets for me,comes in Lemon/Lime ,Chocolate Orange and Orange,they are YUMMY! http://www.coromega.com/

I give the boys Nordic Naturals Omega 3 Pet. It's one capsule for every 20lbs of weight. http://www.nordicnaturals.com/en/Pet_Produ...0/For_Your_Pet/

[tomas]

Morning All, What a wonderful and informative thread!

We pickup our Staffordshire Bull Terrier shortly and just have a few questions regarding feeding. The breeder has the pups on a dry and mince diet which we'd like to change to a dry and raw diet with the intention of going fully raw by 12 months of age.

Questions:

1. Is 2.5% of adult body weight the correct amount to feed from day dot? Say and adult SBT is 15kg, so that's 375g per day. 110g for a cup of dry and 265g raw?

2. In terms of raw foods, our list includes, lamb flap, brisket bones, chicken carcass, chicken wings & necks, chicken maryland, turkey wings, lamb liver, lamb kidney & hearts minced, roo mince and pig trotters. Any important bits we've missed?

3. Obviously not all of these foods are suitable for a young pup. Should we just stick to the softer meats like chicken wings, necks and carcasses initially?

4. At what age should we introduce the harder boney meats?

5. We don't intend to spend a lot of time measuring quantities, calories, and nutrient intake, so is it safe to just give a meaty meal (eg. chicken maryland or mince) for brekky and a meaty bone for dinner?

6. We also intend to add sardines, yoghurt, and eggs. Should these be included from day dot? raw or boiled eggs?

7. Should we still apply the 15 minute feeding rule even when the pup is say 6 months+? Does that mean we take away a big juicy meaty bone after 15 minutes or let him have it for as long as he wants?

Thanks in advance.

I feed my puppies like my adults. 80% meat ,10 edible bone,10% offal (liver,kidney,lung,spleen,pancreas,brain,sex organs etc etc of which 5 % is liver. That's it. Simple.

Start with 2-3 % you will soon see if that is too much,but as Star said if you feeding dry you will most likely only want to feed 1 -1/5%. What is the reason for still feeding dry btw?

I never feed beef brisket,teeth wreckers and not really edible bone IMO. I actually seldom if ever feed beef bones,maybe beef ribs at a pince. Just stay away from heavy load bearing bones of an animal,or using common sense,a neck of a steer is obviously harder thana neck of a sheep oir a neck of a chicken.

Also if you can afford to,large ungulate meats are better than chicken and also have a better fatty acid profile due to usually being grass fed unless of course you are buying free range chicken,most supermarket chicken is enhanced with sodium or other not needed additives.

Sardines and Eggs yes,I never bother with yoghurt,I mean why are you feeding that? What is the reason? Animals do not eat dairy after weaning,nor should we for that matter.If you want to add a probiotic buy it as a supplement.

My guys eat lamb,mutton,pork,venison,as meat on the bone,I actually almost never feed chicken. They get beef and all offal etc as meaty meat meals. I am in NZ so you can also feed roo.

[TYLER23]

I feed my puppies like my adults. 80% meat ,10 edible bone,10% offal (liver,kidney,lung,spleen,pancreas,brain,sex organs etc etc of which 5 % is liver. That's it. Simple.

Start with 2-3 % you will soon see if that is too much,but as Star said if you feeding dry you will most likely only want to feed 1 -1/5%. What is the reason for still feeding dry btw?

I never feed beef brisket,teeth wreckers and not really edible bone IMO. I actually seldom if ever feed beef bones,maybe beef ribs at a pince. Just stay away from heavy load bearing bones of an animal,or using common sense,a neck of a steer is obviously harder thana neck of a sheep oir a neck of a chicken.

Also if you can afford to,large ungulate meats are better than chicken and also have a better fatty acid profile due to usually being grass fed unless of course you are buying free range chicken,most supermarket chicken is enhanced with sodium or other not needed additives.

Sardines and Eggs yes,I never bother with yoghurt,I mean why are you feeding that? What is the reason? Animals do not eat dairy after weaning,nor should we for that matter.If you want to add a probiotic buy it as a supplement.

My guys eat lamb,mutton,pork,venison,as meat on the bone,I actually almost never feed chicken. They get beef and all offal etc as meaty meat meals. I am in NZ so you can also feed roo.

The reason why i will feed dry in the mornings is two-fold. One, we are always in a mad rush and it's much easier to measure out 1/2 cup of dry, and two, as stated before we aren't going to get too technical with calorie and nutrient counting so supplementing raw with a good quality dry should make up any deficiencies for a growing pup. Yoghurt seems to be mentioned a lot on these forums, so i figured it must be good for the dogs.

So if i were to go 100% raw from day dot, and don't want to spend time in the kitchen making up stews etc, what would you recommend for a 8 week old SBT? mince for brekky, chicken wings/necks for lunch, mince/liver for dinner? that sounds about right for your 80/10/10 ratio

[tomas]

The reason why i will feed dry in the mornings is two-fold. One, we are always in a mad rush and it's much easier to measure out 1/2 cup of dry, and two, as stated before we aren't going to get too technical with calorie and nutrient counting so supplementing raw with a good quality dry should make up any deficiencies for a growing pup. Yoghurt seems to be mentioned a lot on these forums, so i figured it must be good for the dogs.

So if i were to go 100% raw from day dot, and don't want to spend time in the kitchen making up stews etc, what would you recommend for a 8 week old SBT? mince for brekky, chicken wings/necks for lunch, mince/liver for dinner? that sounds about right for your 80/10/10 ratio

Sounds about right to me,though you would'nt need liver everyday...but I guess it depends on how much liver you give at one go,it is very rich. I tend to give my guys liver with a bone in meal. They get totally bonless meals every second day.

I mean it's easy to get 10 % edible bone. As for chicken,I tend to buy a whole bird and hack that up if I feed chicken and that way I keep the amount of bone down, wings are mainly bone. A whole bird is maybe 30% bone.

I used to do traditional barf years ago,with veggies,yoghurt,kelp etc. Then I found out about this ratio plan,they look even better now than they did on normal Barf and I have tried dry once or twice in their lives out of lazyiess,even persevered for 4-5 months with it and WOW,nightmare ears and feet chewing etc etc. Even on grain free kibble!

This forum topic was set up by yellowgirl to allow us all to share what works for each of us. Go ahead and feed what you think is best for your dog. Just do research.

Have you read the Myths page? http://www.rawfed.com/myths/ Really great place to learn stuff.

[MissLotus]

Evening all,

I haven't read through all 27 pages, but the one thing that caught my eye was feeding your dogs fish oil. Are we talking about fish oil that us human take or is this a specific fish oil for dogs only and if so, where can it be purchased? What are the benefits of feeding your dog fish oil?

[MissLotus]

2kg mince (lamb, turkey, beef or pork - combo of two) (can also add heart as another nutrient rich muscle meat)

1 kg veggies (minced) (might still reduce the amount - more research -post #8)

3 eggs -whole, raw, including shell (minced)

150g liver (minced) * liver now increased to 200g PLUS 200g of other organ eg. spleen, pancreas, brain, lung, kidney, etc

150g sardines * increased to 250g sardines

400g tuna * tuna changed to salmon & reduced to 200g

2 cups rolled oats (was deleted at first, then after more research reduced to * 1 cup ... still researching -post #8)

splash of olive oil (probably not necessary for regular hairy dogs)

tablespoon of granulated garlic * garlic reduced to a flat dessertspoon

1/2 bunch fresh parsley (minced)

(green tripe is looking like a good addition too)

Hi Yellowgirl,

After reading a few of these post, it got me thinking about my own dog diet and even though they are on raw diets, I haven't really been giving them much of a variety so I'm sure they are lacking in a few things as my diet only consist of dry puppy food in the morning and mince and chicken bones at night and occasionally some offals and eggs.... I am still learning all about being a dog owner

Just wondering if you could provide a reason why you have chosen the food that you have and it's health benefits. Do you grab all the ingredients above and mix it all up so that each meal contains all the above ingredients?

[yellowgirl]

Hi Yellowgirl,

After reading a few of these post, it got me thinking about my own dog diet and even though they are on raw diets, I haven't really been giving them much of a variety so I'm sure they are lacking in a few things as my diet only consist of dry puppy food in the morning and mince and chicken bones at night and occasionally some offals and eggs.... I am still learning all about being a dog owner

Just wondering if you could provide a reason why you have chosen the food that you have and it's health benefits. Do you grab all the ingredients above and mix it all up so that each meal contains all the above ingredients?

Hi MissLotus

Yes, I mix everything together in a big batch and freeze it in smaller bags.

The foods I've chosen are based on my own (ongoing) research. I'm hoping to come up with a recipe that provides the all recommended nutrition from the NRC guidelines http://www.nap.edu/openbook.php?record_id=15&page=44

A few days ago, someone with way more experience and brain capacity than me in this area worked out the nutritional analysis for me, and I have just a couple more little tweaks to do

I need to add a touch of kelp to increase the Iodine levels, use beef meats and offal (instead of lamb, etc) to increase the Zinc, and most importantly, change the olive oil to wheatgerm oil to get the necessary Vitamin E in there.

Here's something I didn't know, and I think you guys would be interested also... If you include fish or other oils, then you must make sure there is vitamin E in the diet to counteract the free radicals that the dog produces when it processes the pufa in the oils. Vitamin E is necessary to protect the dog from the oxidative damage from the oils (thank you Staranais :p ).

I use this site to look up the nutritional values of the ingredients http://www.nal.usda.gov/fnic/foodcomp/search/

I recently discovered this one which is also helpful http://www.nutritiondata.com/

Thanks to some other helpful suggestions here, I'm also going to include the pumpkin seeds which contain good amounts of the zinc I needed, as well as heaps of other vitamins, minerals and amino acids . It seems that the skin of the pumpkin is also safe to eat, so I'll probably just be tossing the whole thing in the blender now! . The skin won't be very digestable though, it's more a testament to my laziness as opposed to being a vital nutritional ingredient. It would be a source of fibre I suppose... that sounds better than saying I'm a lazy cow who can't be bothered peeling a pumpkin!

Edited August 25, 2009 by yellowgirl

[megan_]

yellowgirl - my dad always told us that pumpkin seeds made some dogs have dellusional episodes?

[GSD's 4EVER]

As well as all the natural foods that have been discussed here, I give my girls a big dollop of home made yogurt every morning with a desert spoon of flaxseed oil. 3 times a week, I'll also add a desert spoon of cod liver oil & a capsule of Vit E, Vit B, Grape seed, Selenium & a teaspoon of green tea leaves. Mish (nearly 12) also gets a teaspoon of Silium Husk every morning as a bit of extra fibre. On their evening meal I sprinkle a teaspoon of Glucosamine now that their growth plates are done. On the weekend, morning & evening for both days, I also give them Arnica tablets to deal with any bumps, bruises, aches & pains they may have picked up during the week. This may be a bit OTT for most people, but I also take my girls for a massage every week.