Raw/natural Chitchat

[Staranais]

I had a look at the NRC nutrient requirement of dogs values that you mentioned. Hmmm, I don't think I'd be too keen to follow some of their 'findings'. They mention that an "adult dog’s daily diet can contain up to 50% carbohydrates" which (just my personal opinion) I don't think is correct. They also say that the main options for feeding are "dry, semimoist, and canned foods" ... no mention of natural foods at all. (this is of course assuming that I actually googled the correct site ). If I remember rightly, you're training to be a vet (yay you!), so you'd be looking at lots and lots of different opinions and data.

Can contain up to 50% carbohydrates, perhaps, not should contain 50% carbohydrates? Since the NRC document I'm thinking of also states:

"Provided the diet contains sufficient glucose precursors (amino acids and glycerol), the glucogenic capacity of the liver and kidneys is usually sufficient to meet the metabolic need of growing animals for glucose without inclusion of carbohydrate in the diet (Brambila and Hill, 1966; Chen et al., 1980)".

And yes, I agree with you that 50% of the diet as carbohydrate is far too high to be optimal!

The link's here, in case we're talking about different things:

NRC 1986

As for the natural food not being mentioned, remember this was written in 1986! There's a newer version available, but it's very expensive, and I haven't yet managed to get anyone to cough up the money to buy it for me. I would be interested to see if raw foods are mentioned in the new version, now that more and more manufacturers are making raw dogs foods.

However, I mainly use the NRC guidelines as a guide to how much calories, vitamins and minerals a dog eating a certain diet "should" be eating. I don't stick to it religiously, but I do run my diet against it each time I make substantial changes - if I have way less zinc or calcium or iron than the NRC recommends as a minimum for puppies, for example, I'd want to take a serious look at what I was feeding my pup in case I ended up causing her issues down the road. The raw diet I make tends to come out looking pretty much like my understanding of a prey model diet (one with some added veges and oats), which isn't really that surprising to me.

The good thing with the NRC guidelines is that if I disagree with their results, I can go look up the science behind each particular recommendation and see how solid it is, since the NRC give references. Sometimes the science is good, sometimes it's rather shaky & I don't trust it.

Plus, they're the resource (along with AAFCO) that most pet food companies use to make up their pet food - so if I write a raw diet to their specifications & recommend it to my clients, it's hard to argue I'm being a negligent vet, as you could if I just grabbed my information off the internet or made up a diet of what I thought a wild dog "should" eat.

I'm not necessarily suggesting that everyone else run off and do the same, not everyone is a dog food nerd like me.

Edited July 27, 2009 by Staranais

[tomas]

This has become a great thread and everyone is being helpful and informative,WITHOUT being judgemental! Brilliant job!

I don't feed veggies because I add green tripe,so I figure they get a different antioxidant profile that way,plus it is perfectly balanced for Ca and P and being low fat,low cal and having the correct ration of Omega 6 and 3,I can give it to my one 'easy' keeper Ollie. He gets fat with the same food as his brother Spencer ,they are identical weights and yet Ollie is TWICE as active as Spencer. Helps to fill him up,when he gets less of the other stuff than even one of my dogs that weighs 6kgs less!

When I did add veggies or any carbs for that matter,left over kumara or potato etc,I had no end of ear and gunky eye trouble. None of that food,all is fine. Go figure.

I am also lucky as they get 2-3 hours off lead running a day,yes guys I walk THAT much! So I can feed a lot to make them feel full.

Has anyone with a dog that gains weight easily tried a few gorge meals a week,like half as much again as they need say and then a smaller amount the other days. That way you can satiate your dog and still keep cals down on the other days....just a thought.

Also dogs will eat whatever they can get to be honest to survive,they will eat sticks but that does'nt mean they should...

I just know what has worked best for us. Being Vizslas,single coated,no undercoat,I can see any lumps and bumps or dry skin more easily than on most breeds. Prey model is the winner here hands down

Also we have'nt talked fish oil...

Fish Oil

Recommended dosage is based on a. dogs's weight and b. need.

For a "maintenance dose", consider feeding 1(one) 300mg DHA+EPA combined total capsule per 30 (thirty) pounds of dog.

--10lb dog would get 1 capsule every other day.

--30lb dog would get 1 capsule a day.

--50lb dog would get 1 or 2 capsules a day, your choice, no harm in feeding more.

--100lb dog would get 3 or 4 capsules a day, your choice.

For a "therapeutic" dose (you're addressing a health issue of some sort), consider feeding 1 (one) 300mg DHA+EPA combined total capsule per 10 (ten) pounds of dog.

--10lb dog would get 1 capsule a day.

--30lb dog would get 3 capsules a day.

--50lb dog would get 5 capsules a day.

--100lb dog would get 10 capsules a day.

Edited July 27, 2009 by tomas

[tomas]

Tess32, bones every day would be great, but Madeline's system just can't handle any more than she's getting, she gets very constipated otherwise. Her teeth look fantastic! ;)

What are other good organs?

Thanks for taking the time to share your thoughts Bonnie Parker, puggy_puggy, Luke W (well, not so much ), tomas, westiemum, Kuntooki, ness and corvus. Everyone's viewpoint and experience is worth sharing (again, not so much Luke W ) and I'm glad we can help each other to give our dogs the best

Organs other than liver...spleen ,pancreas,brain,lung...anyone want to add some more....

I have 10kgs of beef spleen in the freezer I am slowly working my way through as well as a few lambs brains and a lung from somewhere

[tomas]

Since I'm both paranoid and very interested in canine nutrition, I've gotten hold of the NRC "nutrient requirement of dogs" values and spreadsheeted out the nutrients in my pup's typical diet to compare to NRC values. I figure having done this will come in handy in future when I graduate & have to recommend a diet to my clients, it should provide some form of proof that I'm not being negligent in my advice to them as could be claimed by disgruntled clients if I just "winged it". Plus I'm a geek, so it's fun.

Hey that is cool,have you been doing this very long and if so fopund out anything interesting...

This nerd wants to know !

[Guest Tess32]

Organs other than liver...spleen ,pancreas,brain,lung...anyone want to add some more....

Yep that's pretty much what I feed....also kidney.

Not offal but you can also feed heart

[Staranais]

Tess32, bones every day would be great, but Madeline's system just can't handle any more than she's getting, she gets very constipated otherwise. Her teeth look fantastic! ;)

What are other good organs?

Thanks for taking the time to share your thoughts Bonnie Parker, puggy_puggy, Luke W (well, not so much ), tomas, westiemum, Kuntooki, ness and corvus. Everyone's viewpoint and experience is worth sharing (again, not so much Luke W ) and I'm glad we can help each other to give our dogs the best

Organs other than liver...spleen ,pancreas,brain,lung...anyone want to add some more....

I have 10kgs of beef spleen in the freezer I am slowly working my way through as well as a few lambs brains and a lung from somewhere

Kidney!

eta - oh dear, Tess beat me to it!

Tomas,

For only a few months, and yes, I've learned heaps from comparing the values. Possibly nothing that will be of any interest to anyone else! But off the top of my head, what I'll be telling my clients (as well as hopefully having a few weekly diet sheets to give them) is:

Bones have heaps of calcium, and quite a lot of phosphorus in them. Meat has hardly any calcium, and very little phosphorus. Feeding your dog as many bones as she or he needs to give an adequate calcium/phosphorus intake and ratio, then make up the rest with other ingredients such as meat, seems to work pretty well according to my calculations. My pup usually gets about 40% of the diet as RMB. That gives her about 2.6g of Ca per 1000kcal (NRC recommendation is 3g/1000kcal for puppies, so we're a little short, but adding more means I can't make my quota for zinc).

Adult dogs don't need nearly as much calcium as puppies do. However, feeding too much calcium isn't a big problem for older dogs, the only ill effect I have found is that it can bind to other minerals (such as zinc) and make them less available to the dog. Puppies have a more limited ability to control absorption and excretion of excess calcium, so you have to be careful not to overdo their calcium intake by too much. And of course, the calcium phosphate ratio for pups should always be kept between 1:1 and 2:1, and preferably between 1.2:1 to 1.4:1.

Liver is where you'll get most of your copper and vitamin A from. Too much vitamin A is harmful, so you can overdo it. Stick to about 5% of the diet as liver (yes, as recommended in prey model).

Diets made largely of chicken are likely to be deficient in zinc. If you feed chicken bones as your RMB, it can be a good plan try to make the rest of the diet out of red meat instead of chicken meat. Zinc is pretty important for the skin and also the immune system, so I'm not keen for my dog to be borderline deficient.

Skin, especially chicken skin, is about the only place you'll get much vitamin D from. Dogs can also make vitamin D themselves when their skin is exposed to sunlight, but I'd rather be safe than sorry, so I feed some skin.

The NRC say that dogs probably do a certain amount of manganese, and that's almost impossible to get from meat and bone alone, so either they're wrong, or dogs do need some veges or grains in some form in the diet. Jury for me is out at the moment, until I get my hands on the new NRC book at least. I feed some grains and veges just to be on the safe side. I'd probably avoid fruit in a dog that had cancer, though.

Green tripe is great!

But on the whole, picturing what a wild dog would eat and feeding that in approximately the right proportions seems to "compute" OK, which makes a lot of sense when you think about it! I'd personally be more careful with puppies, especially large breed puppies, and will encourage my clients to feed them carefully if they want to feed raw.

Edited July 27, 2009 by Staranais

[tomas]

Tess32, bones every day would be great, but Madeline's system just can't handle any more than she's getting, she gets very constipated otherwise. Her teeth look fantastic!

What are other good organs?

Thanks for taking the time to share your thoughts Bonnie Parker, puggy_puggy, Luke W (well, not so much ), tomas, westiemum, Kuntooki, ness and corvus. Everyone's viewpoint and experience is worth sharing (again, not so much Luke W ) and I'm glad we can help each other to give our dogs the best

Organs other than liver...spleen ,pancreas,brain,lung...anyone want to add some more....

I have 10kgs of beef spleen in the freezer I am slowly working my way through as well as a few lambs brains and a lung from somewhere ;)

Kidney!

eta - oh dear, Tess beat me to it!

Tomas,

For only a few months, and yes, I've learned heaps from comparing the values. Possibly nothing that will be of any interest to anyone else! But off the top of my head, what I'll be telling my clients (as well as hopefully having a few weekly diet sheets to give them) is:

Bones have heaps of calcium, and quite a lot of phosphorus in them. Meat has hardly any calcium, and very little phosphorus. Feeding your dog as many bones as she or he needs to give an adequate calcium/phosphorus intake and ratio, then make up the rest with other ingredients such as meat, seems to work pretty well according to my calculations. My pup usually gets about 40% of the diet as RMB. That gives her about 2.6g of Ca per 1000kcal (NRC recommendation is 3g/1000kcal for puppies, so we're a little short, but adding more means I can't make my quota for zinc).

Liver is where you'll get most of your copper and vitamin A from. Too much vitamin A is harmful, so you can overdo it. Stick to about 5% of the diet as liver (yes, as recommended in prey model).

Diets made largely of chicken are likely to be deficient in zinc. If you feed chicken bones as your RMB, it can be a good plan try to make the rest of the diet out of red meat instead of chicken meat. Zinc is pretty important for the skin and also the immune system, so I'm not keen for my dog to be borderline deficient.

Feeding too much calcium isn't a large problem for older dogs, the only ill effect I have found is that it can bind to other minerals (such as zinc) and make them less available to the dog. Puppies have a more limited ability to excrete excess calcium, so you have to be careful not to overdo their calcium intake. And of course, the calcium phosphate ratio for pups should be kept between 1:1 and 2:1, preferably between 1.2:1 to 1.5:1.

Skin, especially chicken skin, is about the only place you'll get vitamin D from. Do dogs need vitamin D in the diet? No one knows yet, but I'd rather be safe than sorry, so I feed some skin.

The NRC say that dogs probably do a certain amount of manganese, and that's almost impossible to get from meat and bone alone, so either they're wrong, or dogs do need some veges or grains in some form in the diet. Jury for me is out at the moment, until I get my hands on the new NRC book at least. I feed some grains and veges just to be on the safe side. I'd probably avoid fruit in a dog that had cancer, though.

Green tripe is great!

But on the whole, picturing what a wild dog would eat and feeding that in approximately the right proportions seems to "compute" OK, which makes a lot of sense when you think about it! I'd personally be more careful with puppies, especially large breed puppies, and will encourage my clients to feed them carefully if they want to feed raw.

You ARE a star ,that is cool,Thanks.

I feed mainly beef,lamb,pork etc so red meat,with not much chicken,I figure they would'nt catch a lot of birds blah blah.But I always add a skin on chicken back to a boneless meat meal,well most times it's a chicken back.

REALLY helpful stuff!

[yellowgirl]

Thanks all for the organ list. My shopping list is going to look quite disgusting

Tomas, sounds like you've worked out exactly what your dogs need . Makes perfect sense not to feed a particular ingredient if your dogs have a reaction to it. I'd do the same thing.

Do you think the sardines and tuna I've included cover the fish oil component that's needed? That was the main reason I added them

Kudos to you Staranais! You know you might not have a very busy clinic, all your clients' dogs will be way too healthy!

This is the site where I found the NRC info http://dels.nas.edu/dels/rpt_briefs/dog_nutrition_final.pdf It's more of a general overview. It says copyrighted 2006, so not sure if it's based on the newer info or just rewritten the info from '86.

I saw the price of the new book . Jeeze, it would want to be able to do the vacuuming as well for that price! ;)

In your opinion, does my 'recipe' cover everything necessary? Anything I should add or leave out?

I'm glad we've got a couple of 'nerds' in this thread to do all the complicated brain work . I like it very simple... this is your dog's tummy, this is what should go in your dog's tummy, congratulations you have a healthy dog

Oh, here's another link that I found helpful http://www.nal.usda.gov/fnic/foodcomp/search/

I think it was posted on the forum at one stage and I put it in my favourites. It's a nutrient database which tells you the nutritional value of whatever keyword you type in. It also does a single nutrient search, so you can find the level of things like fat, calcium, etc in hundreds of different foods... was wondering if there's anything on the list to help Stitch's girl. I do remember reading something (somewhere ) about natural foods for dogs with IBS. I'll see if I can find it.

[Staranais]

The USDA database is a great resource, just be aware that it doesn't include the value of bone - i.e, the values for "chicken necks" are only for the meat portion of the neck, not the bone portion.

Yellowgirl, PM me a typical week's food for your dog (in grams fed per week), and your dog's weight, and I'm happy to run it through my spreadsheet and see what I come up with. Will take me a few days to get back to you, but I'm happy to have the practice.

Remember I'm just an amateur as yet though, and will only be based on the 1986 figures, so no guarantee on the results!

eta: glad you found my ramblings useful, Tomas!

Edited July 27, 2009 by Staranais

[tomas]

Thanks all for the organ list. My shopping list is going to look quite disgusting

Tomas, sounds like you've worked out exactly what your dogs need . Makes perfect sense not to feed a particular ingredient if your dogs have a reaction to it. I'd do the same thing.

Do you think the sardines and tuna I've included cover the fish oil component that's needed? That was the main reason I added them

Kudos to you Staranais! You know you might not have a very busy clinic, all your clients' dogs will be way too healthy!

This is the site where I found the NRC info http://dels.nas.edu/dels/rpt_briefs/dog_nutrition_final.pdf It's more of a general overview. It says copyrighted 2006, so not sure if it's based on the newer info or just rewritten the info from '86.

I saw the price of the new book . Jeeze, it would want to be able to do the vacuuming as well for that price! ;)

In your opinion, does my 'recipe' cover everything necessary? Anything I should add or leave out?

I'm glad we've got a couple of 'nerds' in this thread to do all the complicated brain work . I like it very simple... this is your dog's tummy, this is what should go in your dog's tummy, congratulations you have a healthy dog

Oh, here's another link that I found helpful http://www.nal.usda.gov/fnic/foodcomp/search/

I think it was posted on the forum at one stage and I put it in my favourites. It's a nutrient database which tells you the nutritional value of whatever keyword you type in. It also does a single nutrient search, so you can find the level of things like fat, calcium, etc in hundreds of different foods... was wondering if there's anything on the list to help Stitch's girl. I do remember reading something (somewhere ) about natural foods for dogs with IBS. I'll see if I can find it.

Not sure about the sardines replacing fish oil...but too much fish will reduce the bodies ability to absorb thiamine...I do feed raw pilchards and mackerel,just not that often,maybe once every 2 weeks.

In any case I always add fish oil ,maybe every 2nd day at least for extra omegas...

[tomas]

eta: glad you found my ramblings useful, Tomas!

Yes I did! I am a total dog food freak,has taken me nearly 10 years to get their feeding just how I want and I think they need.

Mind you in all that time other than one of my boys who reacted to a vaccine and had immune related issues,and passed away from meningitis at age 6,I am almost never at the vets! Only for injuries these days.

[oonga]

Loving this thread!!!!

Where do people get green tripe from?

I can only get that white bleached stuff

[tomas]

Loving this thread!!!!

Where do people get green tripe from?

I can only get that white bleached stuff

I am in NZ,so can't help you there,the white stuff is bleached and all the good stuff lost

[yellowgirl]

I'm liking the sound of Green Tripe . I'd be interested in knowing some sources too oonga (I'm in Adelaide). I think butchers, etc would mainly be selling the bleached tripe. I'll add it to my list and ask around a bit

"Green Tripe - What is tripe?

Tripe is the edible lining and accompanying content of a ruminant's first or second stomach. Paunch tripe comes from the large first stomach and honeycomb tripe comes from the second. Green tripe means that the tripe has not been cleaned, bleached or scalded. The actual color can be green or almost black in color. It should never be white or almost white.

Are all types of tripe the same? No!

There are 3 types of tripe: Bleached, Cleaned and Green. Green tripe is also referred to as “unbleached” tripe since it has not been altered. Bleached tripe is white in color and has been thoroughly cleansed. Washed tripe is grey in color, had the contents removed, and has only been lightly rinsed and has not been cleaned to the same degree as bleached tripe. Green tripe has the contents removed and is not washed at all. It is the most natural form of tripe because it is not altered at all once removed from the carcass.

What makes green tripe the perfect ingredient?

There are many nutritional benefits from eating green tripe. It contains a very diverse profile of nutrients including enzymes, omega-3 and omega-6 fatty acids, probiotics, and phytonutrients. Green tripe assists your canine in utilizing their food as well, aiding in the digestion process. It can also be used as an appetite stimulator. In cases where dogs refuse to eat their meal it can aid in stimulating the appetite. Diets that do not contain live enzymes put a greater stress on the pancreas and other organs to help to breakdown food.

Why is green tripe so healthy?

Since tripe is taken from cow’s stomachs, they receive nutrients from grasses and grains that have been already processed naturally by the cow's stomach system. Also present within the tripe are naturally occurring gastric juices, amino acids and live enzymes not found in processed or cooked foods. These gastric juices are excellent cleaners for teeth. Amino acids are necessary for proper muscular development. It is also an excellent source of protein, fiber, fat and delivers equal calcium to phosphorus ratios. Green tripe also contains Lactic Acid bacteria, also known as Lactobacillus Acidophilus which is a good intestinal bacteria and a main ingredient in probiotics."

[Staranais]

Loving this thread!!!!

Where do people get green tripe from?

I can only get that white bleached stuff

I am in NZ,so can't help you there,the white stuff is bleached and all the good stuff lost

Me too - so where do you get your green tripe?

[tomas]

Me too - so where do you get your green tripe?

Now they say you should never assume...I assumed you were an Ozzie!

I get my Tripe from Bombay Petfoods,they do home delivery.

http://www.jimbos.co.nz/shop/home-delivery/

I also get it from Milford Vets....who carry the Raw Essentials range there is other stuff there not shown on this site.

http://www.rawessentials.co.nz/store/cat16...nformation.html

I vary it,as one is light green the other dark,figure it's better to alternate my source

Obviously I am in Auckland. Where are you?

[Elfin]

Can you please tell me what veggies you use in your mix?

[yellowgirl]

I just came across this article which supposedly shows proof of why a raw or barf diet is not suitable for dogs. (I can't even remember what I was looking for in the first place now , I think it was something to do with oats.... )

They say "A very small segment of pet owners have accepted the opinions of a vocal fringe minority of individuals who are currently proponents of feeding raw foods. The diet is commonly called the BARF diet, (Bones And Raw Food). Individuals within this group often make unsubstantiated claims that sound plausible but are typically unsupported in fact. The barf diet is extolled based primarily upon several myths claimed to justify the feeding of this diet."

I choose to disregard it as another anti-raw opinion, but I'm very interested to know what others think of the theories, particularly the first myth about the genetic connection between wolves and domestic dogs. I thought the DNA had recently been proven to be the same

You might want to grab a coffee before you start .

http://www.woodhavenlabs.com/barf-myth.html

[yellowgirl]

Can you please tell me what veggies you use in your mix?

Elfin, I just use whatever frozen veg mix is on special . Others may use more specific vegetables.

The main thing is to mush it up to break down the cellulose so the dog can digest it properly.

[Elfin]

Can you please tell me what veggies you use in your mix?

Elfin, I just use whatever frozen veg mix is on special . Others may use more specific vegetables.

The main thing is to mush it up to break down the cellulose so the dog can digest it properly.

OK, thank you!

Your recipe is the easiest I have seen and seems to be approved by experienced raw feeders...

I may ditch the VAN and have a go!