Raw/natural Chitchat

[tomas]

Oh interesting, thanks! If you can quote the journal, authors and study name, I'll see if I can get full text through university so we can see the whole thing.

Not trying to insult you if you already know this, but you do know that p < 0.0001 mean that they're really sure of their result, not that the wolves ate less than 0.0001% other vertebrates and fruit, right? Just wondering cos you bolded it.

In study area A (low wild and domestic ungulate availability) fruits, livestock, other vertebrates and wild ungulates made up the bulk of the diet (71% in volume). In area B (high availability of livestock) wolf diet was mainly based on sheep and wild boars (80% in volume). In study area C (high availability of wild ungulates) wild ungulates were the main food of wolves (90% in volume). Significant differences were found among study areas in the mean percentage volume of all food categories and in particular for wild ungulates, livestock, other vertebrates and fruits (p < 0.0001 in all cases).

Yup,know that,was just bolding it so it was easier to gravitate to..

Got it here... http://www.jstor.org/pss/3682915

Also look at this... http://www.thefreelibrary.com/Food+habits+......-a0202074273

[Staranais]

Thanks for the link. That table's more saying that there's a link between pack size and prey size (packs with more wolves tend to prey on larger animals), not what proportion of large/small animals a typical pack preys on. Still very interesting though, and makes a lot of sense - you'd expect that larger prey animals would require a larger group to hunt them, whereas there's no point forming a pack to hunt small animals.

Sorry everyone else, Tomas and I have rather taken over this thread.

Edited to add, oooh thanks, will look at those other papers (maybe tommorrow though).

Edited August 12, 2009 by Staranais

[tomas]

Thanks for the link. That table's more saying that there's a link between pack size and prey size (packs with more wolves tend to prey on larger animals), not what proportion of large/small animals a typical pack preys on. Still very interesting though, and makes a lot of sense - you'd expect that larger prey animals would require a larger group to hunt them, whereas there's no point forming a pack to hunt small animals.

Sorry everyone else, Tomas and I have rather taken over this thread.

Yeah oops! Anyway Fear factor is getting good,so I will get off soon. The Latvian one I just posted the link to,is also interesting

http://www.thefreelibrary.com/Food+habits+......-a0202074273

[wylie]

My dogs get variety over the week..........so they could have

Chicken carcasses complete with liver hearts kidneys and other unknowns in them

Lamb flaps

Pork bones including flaps

Beef bones

Lamb Hearts

Chicken Hearts

Tongues of various animals

Pigs heads handed out whole that they go to town on and only leave a bit of jaw bone

we occassionally source Emu tho the bones are very light so it is a very light meal LMAO

occassionally turkey and any thing else we can source cheaply and in quantity

I dont weigh at all, if they are getting fat i give them less if they are skinny they get more. Over time it works out and thats the main thing.

Girls in whelp get given more as they like, they dont tend to be massive pigs on the whole so keeping weight steady on them all is fairly easy. I have a couple of good keepers that do get smaller amounts. The boys tend to get the most especially when girls are in season.

I have a couple with minimal teeth and they do fine on whatever i give them. The old girl is 12 and has very few teeth and still goes to town on anything she is given including carcasses and any meaty bones. She loves to chew on a pigs head.

I also feed my pups mainly raw tho i do feed some kibble as many puppy buyers dont want to or are uncomfortable with feeding raw. So they get given options. The pups tend to prefer raw food anyway over the kibble.

[Tru Borders]

I feed Canine Country about twice a week.

Its a top product and the dogs love it.

It comes frozen in 1kg (twisted in the middle to make 500gr portioning easy) rolls so I just defrost and im good to go.

I get mine from Uncle Toms. Its a great pet shop/nursery. No pet selling though

[oonga]

are they pretty much the same as BARF patties??

I don't think we have anything like that here in melbourne other than the Barf patties

[jamie]

A healthy,easy and fun way to give dogs fruit is to give them a couple of frozen raspberries as treats.These are extremely nutrient rich,but low calorie/low carb and are something that I do believe a wolf or dog would occasionally eat in the wild.My dog loves them!

[Tru Borders]

are they pretty much the same as BARF patties??

I don't think we have anything like that here in melbourne other than the Barf patties

i guess so? I havent seen BARF Patties before.

Heres a link to their site ... no distributors in Melb. It also lists the ingredients of their pet food.

[Gayle.]

I don't chop much at all. I buy chicken frames and other pieces and just bag them up in meal sized portions. I buy trays of lamb offcuts and just freeze the whole lot. The ones from Safeway will do two dogs for their main meal and a bit left over for breakfast the next morning.

Most mornings they have a chicken drumstick each for brekky, but if they'd had Safeway lamb the night before, I reserve a meaty bone each for them from the pack.

They get their veges, eggs, offal and other bits and pieces mixed with raw roo mince or any other mince that's on special. I make up about 6kg at a time (takes me about an hour), and bag it up in meal sized portions in freezer bags. They get a mince meal about 3 times a week.

Because I work fulltime but want to feed raw, I try and make it as easy for myself as possible and as tasty and interesting for the dogs as I can. I have been buying dried liver treats that someone from my obedience club makes, and use that for training so that also makes up part of their offal portion.

Whenever I see chicken pieces on special, I load up. Whenever I'm near a butchers I check out their bones and offcuts and see what's cheap for the dogs. They get apples to munch on sometimes (Benson loves them, Dusty is ho-hum about them), and if they're cheap (not much recently!) I'll grate them up to add to their mince mix.

They also get some table scraps, although not too much and it's more as a treat rather than an integral part of their diet. But if I'm cooking sausages or steak, sometimes I reserve a little bit just for them. And I'm sure they'd appreciate the taste of finely cooked rump steak if they'd just slow down and chew it well.

Oh, and something I try and add to their mince mix once it's in their bowls, is a splash of oil.....rice bran or flaxseed. It seems to give their coats a nice shine.

[oceanaussi]

I'm German originally andI've been discussing BARF on the German Weimaraner Forum. Interestingly nobody gives their dogs bones as it is heaps to dangerous. It used to be promotedabout 20 years ago but now people don't do this anymore due to all the problems it caused.

[laffi]

I'm German originally andI've been discussing BARF on the German Weimaraner Forum. Interestingly nobody gives their dogs bones as it is heaps to dangerous. It used to be promotedabout 20 years ago but now people don't do this anymore due to all the problems it caused.

I lived in Poland for 17 years, France for 6 years, US for 6 years and now in Australia for 2.5 years.

I have found it very interesting how people's attitudes towards food change in all these countries.

Australia wins heads down when it comes to promoting healthy and natural way... (at least the experience I have had). US is the kingdom of fastfoods. Europe is somewhere in the middle, catching up to US much faster than Australia. Most of the people in US would laugh at you it you told them you want to feed raw food to your dogs. They really believe that processed foods are the way to go. This mentality spread really fast with the propaganda of the dry foods around the world (most of them are owned by american companies).

Wolves evolved to eat raw meaty bones of the prey they are able to catch. The main problems with bones are created by people: by giving the dogs cooked bones or cutting the very large bones into smaller pieces creating edges and giving access to very hard bones.

[Staranais]

I'm German originally andI've been discussing BARF on the German Weimaraner Forum. Interestingly nobody gives their dogs bones as it is heaps to dangerous. It used to be promotedabout 20 years ago but now people don't do this anymore due to all the problems it caused.

Interesting, what problems did they see to make their attitudes change, Oceanaussie?

I think we'd be hiding our heads in the sand to claim that dogs never choke on raw, or never get bone impactions from raw, or perforated guts, or salmonellosis etc. These things undoubtedly do happen to some dogs. But the more important question is whether raw has overall health benefits compared to kibble (which of course also has risks - periodontal disease, the risk that it lacks any nutrient not included in "AAFCO" profiles, choking on kibble bits, etc).

Also I believe that we need to be sensible in recommending which dogs be fed raw - dogs on medication that might reduce stomach acid, for example, or dogs suffering from severe immunosuppression, are prime candidates for a home made cooked diet instead of a raw one.

JMO.

[First Time Puppy Owner]

Well said Laffi! Bones are excellent not only for mouth health IMO but also provide a stimulating mental activity for domesticated dogs!

[laffi]

I'm German originally andI've been discussing BARF on the German Weimaraner Forum. Interestingly nobody gives their dogs bones as it is heaps to dangerous. It used to be promotedabout 20 years ago but now people don't do this anymore due to all the problems it caused.

Interesting, what problems did they see to make their attitudes change, Oceanaussie?

I think we'd be hiding our heads in the sand to claim that dogs never choke on raw, or never get bone impactions from raw, or perforated guts, or salmonellosis etc. These things undoubtedly do happen to some dogs. But the more important question is whether raw has overall health benefits compared to kibble (which of course also has risks - periodontal disease, the risk that it lacks any nutrient not included in "AAFCO" profiles, choking on kibble bits, etc).

Also I believe that we need to be sensible in recommending which dogs be fed raw - dogs on medication that might reduce stomach acid, for example, or dogs suffering from severe immunosuppression, are prime candidates for a home made cooked diet instead of a raw one.

JMO.

Absolutely! There are risks involved in everything we do. We just need to make educated decisions and take calculated risks.

Edited August 13, 2009 by laffi

[First Time Puppy Owner]

Also I believe that we need to be sensible in recommending which dogs be fed raw - dogs on medication that might reduce stomach acid, for example, or dogs suffering from severe immunosuppression, are prime candidates for a home made cooked diet instead of a raw one.

JMO.

How do you mean immunosuppresssed? What illiness exactly?

Absolutely! There are risks involved in everything we do. We just need to make educated decisions and take calculated risks.

I agree!

I take a calculated risk every morning, five day a week when getting out of bed and going to work, I mean just you never know who I will want to choke! (Sorry couldn't help myself ;) )

Edited August 13, 2009 by First Time Puppy Owner

[oceanaussi]

It's not about feeding raw, just about feeding bones and the main problem seems to be the gut perforation. And it's funny, they're saying 'Australia hasn't caught up with the rest of the world yet'.

For me personally, I feed what I think is good for my dog and where I can see he/she stives on. My Weimaraner is very sensitive about food. He can't have a lot of chicken and/or fat, so I gotta be really carefull with what I feed. He's not very good with bones (doesn't seem to know what to do with them), he plays with them rather than eat them. My old girl cracks any bone and she then gets very hard prickly stool. So fer her, there will be less and different bones than for Quen. I will give this a go for a while and see how they do and make up my mind then.

[Diva]

It's not about feeding raw, just about feeding bones and the main problem seems to be the gut perforation. And it's funny, they're saying 'Australia hasn't caught up with the rest of the world yet'.

I know it can happen because I've heard of it, but I've fed a lot of dogs a lot of raw bones over a lot of years without a single problem. I take that into account when assessing the risk for my guys. Different size dogs or different breeds I wouldn't speak for.

[First Time Puppy Owner]

It's not about feeding raw, just about feeding bones and the main problem seems to be the gut perforation. And it's funny, they're saying 'Australia hasn't caught up with the rest of the world yet'.

For me personally, I feed what I think is good for my dog and where I can see he/she stives on. My Weimaraner is very sensitive about food. He can't have a lot of chicken and/or fat, so I gotta be really carefull with what I feed. He's not very good with bones (doesn't seem to know what to do with them), he plays with them rather than eat them. My old girl cracks any bone and she then gets very hard prickly stool. So fer her, there will be less and different bones than for Quen. I will give this a go for a while and see how they do and make up my mind then.

You know I thought your boy in your avatar was a Dane ;) I just re read that you have been speaking to other wiemie owners in Germany - god I'm a dork

Perhaps it is a common concern with weim's - see I know Golden have guts of steal so feel comfortable feeding brisket bones, chicken marylands/frames and turkey wings/necks without any worry - I am however a little relucant to feed chicken necks or wings as I think my new boy Lughie would inhale them

[laffi]

It's not about feeding raw, just about feeding bones and the main problem seems to be the gut perforation. And it's funny, they're saying 'Australia hasn't caught up with the rest of the world yet'.

For me personally, I feed what I think is good for my dog and where I can see he/she stives on. My Weimaraner is very sensitive about food. He can't have a lot of chicken and/or fat, so I gotta be really carefull with what I feed. He's not very good with bones (doesn't seem to know what to do with them), he plays with them rather than eat them. My old girl cracks any bone and she then gets very hard prickly stool. So fer her, there will be less and different bones than for Quen. I will give this a go for a while and see how they do and make up my mind then.

You know I thought your boy in your avatar was a Dane I just re read that you have been speaking to other wiemie owners in Germany - god I'm a dork

Perhaps it is a common concern with weim's - see I know Golden have guts of steal so feel comfortable feeding brisket bones, chicken marylands/frames and turkey wings/necks without any worry - I am however a little relucant to feed chicken necks or wings as I think my new boy Lughie would inhale them ;)

I think in a sense Australia is behind... but in a good way

Also for me mincing bones is processing them I like to feed as close to the natural way as possible. What bones are you feeding your weims oceanaussi?

FTPO, Laffi used to inhale chicken necks when she was a pup! So I fed her only frozen large bones at the beginning to teach her to chew properly. Now I can give her a chicken neck and she chews it nicely :p

[First Time Puppy Owner]

FTPO, Laffi used to inhale chicken necks when she was a pup! So I fed her only frozen large bones at the beginning to teach her to chew properly. Now I can give her a chicken neck and she chews it nicely

Benson's the same - took him 3 minutes to eat his fresh chicken maryland - but Lughie shocked the hell out of me - in the mouth chop, chop, choip, chop swallow (30 bl**dy seconds ) I almost had a heart attack just watching him!!!